9mm, Too old?

[1feral1]

Browning:   Safety dictates that chamber is empty when holstered, requiring pistol to be cocked when removed from holster prior to coming on target
                 

I carry a 9x19mm BHP all the time, and as the tactical scenerio dictates, often with one up the spout, on safe, and thats not a problem. You'd be a fool carrying around a pistol without it loaded (that is without a rd in the chamber) in a hostile operational environment like it is around here. I'd call it suicide in many cases with having to pull back the slide, cocking the weapons before using it.

Plus if you are refering to cocking the weapon as in the hammer with a rd already in the chamber, well lowering the hammer when its loaded before holstering to say even half cock or whatever would be more dangerous in the first place. The way you specified 'cocking' has confuded me.

Please clarify, and let us know where this degree of weapon readiness comes from. After almost 31 yrs in the game, I too have never heard of it before. Is not a pistol loaded, ready or unloaded? Or as they say here in Australia loaded, at action, or instant, or unloaded.

Now the current FNH BHP has been modernised to include the following:

- ergo grips
- ambo safety, nice and big, and easy to use, even with gloves
- a cut at the face of the right hand side of the chamber to allow viewing a loaded cartridge
- a modified and improved ramp and the protruding portion at the top of the chamber face has been deleted from the design entirely.
- an improved stoving over the top of the phosphated finish
- improved trigger design
- lower reciever is cast, not machined from solid stock;
and these are the noticeable mods I am aware of.

Regards from a coool Baghdad early morning (0145h),


Wes

 

[rregtc-etf]

It has been about 20 years since I have seen a BHP, so I guess the modern upgrades make them easier to handle now, before the safety catch was very small and awkward. 

What I am trying to get across is that there is an intermediary step that has to be taken after the weapon is loaded (round chambered) and holstered with either safety applied or half cocked.  And a step has to be taken to make it ready to fire (pull hammer back or disengage safety). This intermediary step could potentially be a problem if the shooter is in a panic and out of practice with the weapon or operator is careless and pulls the trigger accidentally as did an Australian soldier in Iraq shooting himself through the head (Inquest ruled accidental because no powder burns were found which may indicated suicide).  With the Glock, you just point and pull the trigger, no intermediate steps required and a heavier trigger pull decreases chances of accidental discharge. They are different mechanically and are handled accordingly.  You can argue that if disarmed with a Glock, person can shoot you immediately, anyone knows how to pull a trigger and that safety features if applied on BHP can delay person if they are unfamiliar with BHP mechanisms giving you a fighting chance.

I have used both and like both.

 

[PhilB]

I dont mind our brownings. I would say to improve them on the cheap ala C7A2 we should

a) put on tritium sights
b) NEW MAGAZINES! (yes I am shouting because basically every stoppage with my pistol overseas was due to the shitty, tired mags)
c) Remove the mag safe. I feel that this is an overly redundant  feature that detracts from the intuitive operation of the pistol. In my opinion the magsafe and the lack of training on the pistol are responsible for the majority of nd's with the 9mm

 

[KevinB]

rregtc-etf -- nothing has been done to the guns.

Phil -- I agree with you 110%  -- however a set of Novak sights and then machining the slide -- plus new mags with be OVER the cost of a MIL/LE Glock19 buy
  I can't speak for what the .ca recentlypays for the Sig P226R -- BUT I do knwo what the US DOS pays for G19's with night sights...

CANSOF is utterly Sig -- but for cost wise I think that at $220 USD / gun the CF would be better off buying Glock19's.

ANYONE WHO CARRIES A HANDGUN WITHOUT A ROUND CHAMBERED HAS MISSED THE POINT OF CARRYING A HANDGUN.

 

[DFW2T]

I can't agree more with the last few posts.  Imagine having the drop imposed on you while carrying your short and long on you,  only to be shot because your weapon is not "good to go"  The Glock 19 is a superb sidearm as so is the Sig P226R  (and my preferred P229) I believe the MPs were carrying them in Kabul on Roto(s) 0,1 &2.  I was fortunate enough to purchase the auto sear in Amman Jordan (for the Glock)  In our line of work ...where you are trying to avoid a prolonged contact....33 rds from your short (mags also purchased in Amman) in a few seconds,  can get you home for supper.

 

[1feral1]

It has been about 20 years since I have seen a BHP, so I guess the modern upgrades make them easier to handle now, before the safety catch was very small and awkward. 

What I am trying to get across is that there is an intermediary step that has to be taken after the weapon is loaded (round chambered) and holstered with either safety applied or half cocked.  And a step has to be taken to make it ready to fire (pull hammer back or disengage safety). This intermediary step could potentially be a problem if the shooter is in a panic and out of practice with the weapon or operator is careless and pulls the trigger accidentally as did an Australian soldier in Iraq shooting himself through the head (Inquest ruled accidental because no powder burns were found which may indicated suicide). 

Firstly, about the death of PTE Jake Kovco from 3RAR in April (google him formore). Although the details into the mans death are wishy-washy, at best, the facts are that he had a weapon in action condition (rd in chamber), in his room, where the entire location he was in, was a  total 'unload' zone. Something happened, beyond that only God knows the real facts.

His death has got nothing to do with a loaded weapon out in the Bad Lands here, and how its hoslstered or carried, and I don't see the rellevance of even bringing him up in this thread.

I do know he was a good soldier, a sniper, and was respected and loved by his mates here, many who I work with every day. he is not forgotten by any of us. In respect of him I will NOT even speculate on the incident.

Now for carrying the BHP at 1/2 cock with a rd in the chamber, well thats retarded, it delays the time required to get a rd off, and every millesecond counts. Like I said I carry mine fully loaded (as the tactical scenerio dictates) on safe, no problems. Draw pistol, off safe and fire. Be quick or be dead. I as others, also obey and enforce the weapons status conditions as laid out in secure areas. Proper unload bays etc are essentail to safety.

Regards,

Wes

 

[mudgunner49]

1/      ...a set of Novak sights and then machining the slide -- plus new mags with be OVER the cost of a MIL/LE Glock19 buy...

2/    ANYONE WHO CARRIES A HANDGUN WITHOUT A ROUND CHAMBERED HAS MISSED THE POINT OF CARRYING A HANDGUN.

1/    AGREED!!!; and

2/    Thus endeth the lesson!!!

sidenote:  Kev - I finally got around to digging out your Vltor (travel, deer season, being a lazy @$$, etc, etc...).  Are you in Edmonton or Ottawa???


blake

 

[KevinB]

PM in bound

 

[Strike]

CANSOF is utterly Sig

Infidel -- Although this may be the plan in the future (remember, I said MAY, not IS!!), the above statement is not fact.

Maybe it will be in the future.  From what I've seen of both weapons, the Sig is more desirable for several reasons -- one of which is that I have tiny hands!!

 

[KevinB]

Sorry I should had said REAL CANSOF units  ;D

CSOR and JTF-2 are Sig users

I dont think much about 427 SOAS or the HQ hangers on

 

[Strike]

I'm sure some of those "HQ hangers on" could show you a thing or two.

Anyone taking bets?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I know the MH dets on ship get issued the P225 along with the Navy but do Tac Hel Squadrons get the BHP or the Sig?

 

[KevinB]

Strike -- It was not meant (althought I guess it readsas one) as a slight.
Since the HQ is not a deployable entity issuing them Sig's would be foolish.
The SOA hel det -- I would equip the flight crew

 

[mudgunner49]

PM in bound

Got it - back at ya...

 

[Strike]

Tac Hel is currently issued the Browning and the C7.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Thanks for the clarification Strike.

 

[rregtc-etf]

Found this link for those interested in BHP and G17 comparison

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Hi%20Power%20and%20Glock17.htm

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Not sure if its my browser or not but that link didn't work. When I click on it I get this addy ftp://http//www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Hi%20Power%20and%20Glock17.htm so I'll post "fixed up" addy:

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Hi%20Power%20and%20Glock17.htm

 

[Popurhedoff]

I'm sure some of those "HQ hangers on" could show you a thing or two.

Anyone taking bets?

I am sure some of the Zomies could show some of the REAL CANSOF units some things as well.     What it comes down too is training,,, is the 9mm too old.... hell no.

I recently did a shooting demonstration some Army brass... weather conditions +4c and pouring  rain... haven't used my pistol in two months (deployed) target is a 18" steel gong, range 165 yards, pistol holstered, quick draw from the holstered position... I nailed the gong 5/10 times from one 10 round magazine and 3/10 times from the second magazine... training and muscle memory.. there is no substitute for practice as Kev has mentioned.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33577/post-484232.html#new

Cheers
Pop

 

[KevinB]

;D  I figured that may get too you Pat...