Pilot Selection

[double0three]

Ah thanks for the info.  That's kind of discouraging to hear you aren't guarenteed a piloting job at the end of your pilot training.  I haven't heard that anywhere else before, but that just means if I ever get in I'll just have to make sure I'm at the top of the class.

 

[yoman]

He told me that in his searches and talking to superiors he found that even if you get into pilot and pass basic and pass everything right up to moosejaw that you are still not guarunteed a job. He said only the top percent of the class will be offered jobs and the ones who don't make it will have to choose another occupation.

Why would they put all that training and spend all that money on you just for them to say "sorry, you don't have a job"?

Sounds fishy to me.

 

[aesop081]

It sounds fishy because t BS when worded like that.  making it to MJ doesnt mean you will be a pilot in the CF because not everyone passes MJ.  Same for helo guys when they go to BHS....not everyone passes.  Therfore making it to MJ doent guarantee you a job as a pilot.  I knwo one person ( a freind of mine) who made it through MJ and did not pass his type course so now he flies a mahagony bomber.......

 

[Deleted member 15361]

Sorry if my wording makes it sound wrong but i'm just repeating what I was told. But I could understand someone passing they're pilot training but not getting an offer as a pilot and having to change occupations. I think of it like this: millions of canadians take driver training and pass their road test so that they can drive vehicles, however there are still absolutly horrible drivers on the road. So the way I see it I am not going to let some guy who just passed his driver training and road test drive my Ferrari(lets just pretend i own one) which is worth 100's of 1000's of dollars, I would want the absolute best. And I can see it being the same in the forces, just passing your pilot course and being an okay pilot, how could the canadian forces just let you fly a multi million dollar machine knowing that you just barely passed training. So maybe they would loose a couple hundred thousand on training but they have the potential to save millions if you ditch an aircraft.


Just my 2 cents though.
Rob.

 

[double0three]

I'm gonna have to go with aesop081 on this one, makes more sense.

 

[inferno]

I have heard the "my buddy" thing so many times..

Along with the "just a heads up for you Pilot apps." thing...

I think my brain just filters most of it out by now...

As for this one... There was a good example I was told when I was at the ASC.. clerical error at the ASC passed the failing portion of the class, and failed the passing portion of the class.. Oops. When they got to MJ.. their skills were obviously lacking.. CF instructors managed to bring some of them up to standard and shove them though the course.. once you've gone through any training, the CF has a vested interest in you.. that said.. you can only be pushed so far.. if you dont have what it takes.. and you dont meet the standard.. then you can not go forward.. but if you can be brought up to the standard with a little extra attention, then why not?

Also with getting dumped from any portion of the pilot training... you don't get stuck in doing something you never anticipated doing.
They will offer you other trades/jobs so forth.. but when it comes down to the line, if you decline everything that gets thrown at you, you can sign your papers and walk away. (Processing takes time ofcourse.)

Atleast that's how it was explained to me in the CFRC.

 

[Zach15]

I think the point is, you either pass your flight training or you don't. If you don't have the stuff to be a pilot in the CF, then they will send you packing before you complete your training. If you do finish the training then you are competant enough to be given control of the aircraft you had been trained in.



            Zach

 

[Inch]

Former291er,

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

As the only guy to reply in this thread that has made it through CF pilot training, I will tell you that you've been lied to. No one in the history of the CF has made it to wings standard only to be remustered because they weren't good enough. If you get your wings, you've got your wings and you WILL fly a CF aircraft of some type. If you haven't got what it takes, you'll never get pilot wings pinned on you. You'll be CT'd (cease training) long before wings grad.

Now having said that, if at any point up to being awarded your CF pilot wings you fail to meet the standard, you will be CT'd and your career as a pilot will be over. This includes your very last test during advanced flying training, regardless of aircraft type. It is very common for guys to get through Moose Jaw and have trouble flying helos, if they fail to meet the standard in helo school, buhbye. Guys have been CT'd from Jet training as well as multi engine training.

Don't think for a second that there are any guarantees, if you can't meet the standard, you're done. If you do meet the standard, then you get your wings and fly for the CF.

Now, let's say you fail something after getting your wings, like your Herc course or Hornet course, etc. In this case you will go to a Career Review Board and your fate will be decided, the CRB's that I've heard of often result in transfer to a different aircraft type.

Clear enough for you?

 

[Deleted member 15361]

Former291er,

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

As the only guy to reply in this thread that has made it through CF pilot training, I will tell you that you've been lied to. No one in the history of the CF has made it to wings standard only to be remustered because they weren't good enough. If you get your wings, you've got your wings and you WILL fly a CF aircraft of some type. If you haven't got what it takes, you'll never get pilot wings pinned on you. You'll be CT'd (cease training) long before wings grad.

Now having said that, if at any point up to being awarded your CF pilot wings you fail to meet the standard, you will be CT'd and your career as a pilot will be over. This includes your very last test during advanced flying training, regardless of aircraft type. It is very common for guys to get through Moose Jaw and have trouble flying helos, if they fail to meet the standard in helo school, buhbye. Guys have been CT'd from Jet training as well as multi engine training.

Don't think for a second that there are any guarantees, if you can't meet the standard, you're done. If you do meet the standard, then you get your wings and fly for the CF.

Now, let's say you fail something after getting your wings, like your Herc course or Hornet course, etc. In this case you will go to a Career Review Board and your fate will be decided, the CRB's that I've heard of often result in transfer to a different aircraft type.

Clear enough for you?

Thank you very much for your reply. I'm glad to get responses from pilots to straighten this out, thats why they have forums I guess, lol. I don't think that captain tarso lied to me, but obviously his information is either mixed up or he recieved false information. Its good to have a site with professionals in lots of different trades who have done the training to clearify on subjects related to their trade.
Thanks again, takes a load of stress off,lol.
Rob.

 

[bbbb]

Perhaps getting a Private Pilot License or commercial license would be the best way to go? With one of those you can actually FLY PLANES instead of waiting and doing non-pilot related 'training'. It takes a long time for pilot hopefuls to get their wings and start actually flying for the CF. The possibility of failing that 'training' kills your chances of becoming a CF pilot even before getting into a cockpit. A lot of people have experienced this situation, they enter the CF as pilot 32U and NEVER fly any CF plane because of 'training' that HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH FLYING!! Many people have gone this way...

The way I see it, if you want to be a pilot, get your pilot license that way when you apply for CF pilot you actually have that skill already under your belt. This talk of bad habits during flight training is absolute nonsense. Anybody who passes the flight test and flies properly isn't displaying bad habits. For the people reading these posts up above, perhaps a description of the 'bad habits' PPL people have is in order? I for one did well on my flight test and can fly a plane without any of the sloppy habits some people attach to PPL and CPL pilots. It has been my experience that CPL pilots are awesome pilots. For those people who say that the flight test is not strict, flying a Cessna 150/172 is WAY different from flying a CF-18 or Herc.

I'm thinking I should change my signature to "Get your Pilot License if you want to be a pilot!".

 

[aesop081]

Former291er,

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

As the only guy to reply in this thread that has made it through CF pilot training, I will tell you that you've been lied to. No one in the history of the CF has made it to wings standard only to be remustered because they weren't good enough. If you get your wings, you've got your wings and you WILL fly a CF aircraft of some type. If you haven't got what it takes, you'll never get pilot wings pinned on you. You'll be CT'd (cease training) long before wings grad.

Now having said that, if at any point up to being awarded your CF pilot wings you fail to meet the standard, you will be CT'd and your career as a pilot will be over. This includes your very last test during advanced flying training, regardless of aircraft type. It is very common for guys to get through Moose Jaw and have trouble flying helos, if they fail to meet the standard in helo school, buhbye. Guys have been CT'd from Jet training as well as multi engine training.

Don't think for a second that there are any guarantees, if you can't meet the standard, you're done. If you do meet the standard, then you get your wings and fly for the CF.

Now, let's say you fail something after getting your wings, like your Herc course or Hornet course, etc. In this case you will go to a Career Review Board and your fate will be decided, the CRB's that I've heard of often result in transfer to a different aircraft type.

Clear enough for you?

Thanks Inch..thats what i was trying to get at but, unfortunately, i'm not that well-spoken

 

[Good2Golf]

Perhaps getting a Private Pilot License or commercial license would be the best way to go? With one of those you can actually FLY PLANES instead of waiting and doing non-pilot related 'training'. It takes a long time for pilot hopefuls to get their wings and start actually flying for the CF. The possibility of failing that 'training' kills your chances of becoming a CF pilot even before getting into a cockpit. A lot of people have experienced this situation, they enter the CF as pilot 32U and NEVER fly any CF plane because of 'training' that HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH FLYING!! Many people have gone this way...

The way I see it, if you want to be a pilot, get your pilot license that way when you apply for CF pilot you actually have that skill already under your belt. 1. This talk of bad habits during flight training is absolute nonsense. 2. Anybody who passes the flight test and flies properly isn't displaying bad habits. 3. For the people reading these posts up above, perhaps a description of the 'bad habits' PPL people have is in order? I for one did well on my flight test and can fly a plane without any of the sloppy habits some people attach to PPL and CPL pilots. 4. It has been my experience that CPL pilots are awesome pilots. For those people who say that the flight test is not strict, flying a Cessna 150/172 is WAY different from flying a CF-18 or Herc.

I'm thinking I should change my signature to "Get your Pilot License if you want to be a pilot!".

"...my buddy..."  hmmmmmm  :

bbbb, I don't want to scare you away from contributing on this board, but please keep in mind that it is a generally accepted practice here to back up what you are purporting to be factual statements with experience/evidence.  Until you have established a posting rapore with others on the board here, you have to be clear on what you state as fact and what is conjecture/opinion.  If you are stating an "emotional" opinion, vice factual statement, say so.

To address some of your statements (per inserted numbers, highlighted in red, above):

1)  As an example, as a CF pilot with thousands of hours of flight time (albeit not as a QFI - qualified flight instructor), I have spoken with many instructors in the training system who have noted that many civy-trained pilots thought that "being in the general vicinity of altitudes" was sufficient.  This is clearly not on for military flying.  +/-20' of an assigned altitude may seem okay, but now put yourself at 15' AGL on NVGs and see if +/- 20' works out for you!

2) As the holder of a CPLH, I can tell you that the test was not nearly as discriminating as you make it out to be.  Your statement logically indicates that any holder of a PPL or CPL would not have habits 'bad enough' to be unsatisfactory in meeting military standards -- I do not think that is the case.  They could very well have bad habits that happened to be acceptable within the standards laid out for the civilian license, but clearly don't make the grade in military aviation. 

3)  see 1)

4)  My experience has been that while there are some military pilots that are not as good as others, I have never met another CF pilot I wouldn't either fly with myself, or have fly my family.  On the other hand, I have seen some pilots in the commercial world I would have nothing to do with -- flew with some during a summer that I took leave and used my CPLH for a few weeks.  In fact, as an Instrument Check Pilot (meaning the guy who tests another CF pilot for his/her annual "ticket ride") I stripped one pilot of their ticket for what would have (if I hadn't taken control of the aircraft) resulted in a serious violation of Cdn Air Regs -- the guy was an ATPL-qualified pilot in his civy life flying for a well known national airline, it was not a mil-only item he failed on...it was flagrant lack of common sense and judgement!

For others, I would suggest some familiarization training with a flight instructor at a reputable flight school, but I would not go so far as to recommend getting a private pilots license and the significant cost that can entail.  Having a private pilots license is not directly correlative to success in military pilot training.  If you have the potential that the military is looking for in a pilot, you will succeed.  I think there are very few cases where having a PPL in and of itself made or broke a potential CF pilot's chances.

Cheers,
Duey

 

[Inch]

Perhaps getting a Private Pilot License or commercial license would be the best way to go? With one of those you can actually FLY PLANES instead of waiting and doing non-pilot related 'training'. It takes a long time for pilot hopefuls to get their wings and start actually flying for the CF. The possibility of failing that 'training' kills your chances of becoming a CF pilot even before getting into a cockpit. A lot of people have experienced this situation, they enter the CF as pilot 32U and NEVER fly any CF plane because of 'training' that HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH FLYING!! Many people have gone this way...

bbbb,

This is the not the first time you've posted inaccurate info. Keep this up and I'll put you on the army.ca warning system.

The courses you do before pilot training are BOTC (or whatever it's called these days), second language training, sea and land survival and aeromedical training. None of these should present any great challenge and if they do, it's probably for the best that those that fail these courses don't get to fly a multi million dollar aircraft.

Beyond the 5 courses I listed above, there are no other courses with career implications, ie ones that will lead to you never strapping your butt into a CF aircraft. Even in language school it doesn't matter if you get a profile. I know many guys that got XXX on their french profile and all went to Moose Jaw, not all got their wings but that's the way pilot training goes.

 

[Bograt]

I discovered last week at AMT that my name has been submitted for the Grob 120 evaluation course. Looks like late spring/early summer I'll be in Portage. I am thrilled. I am also 81 on the list for MJ ( not to be confused with spiderman's girlfriend).

After that I will be flying the F-117 or the Mig 29. It depends what stream I am placed into. Perhaps I may get one of those stealth Apache slots. A buddy of mine said that I had it what I takes to fly the Mig 26 or Concord Bomber.

Off to SERE first week of April. I'm sure Winterpeg is nice in the spring- right fellas? Snow is gone, no flies....

On a serious note, excellent work Zoomie and the rest of the guys in Comox for the Ferry Rescue

 

[Deleted member 15361]

I am thrilled. I am also 81 on the list for MJ ( not to be confused with spiderman's girlfriend).

LOL, thats so dry I think I need a glass of water. lol

 

[Zoomie]

On a serious note, excellent work Zoomie and the rest of the guys in Comox for the Ferry Rescue

I wish I could take any credit - alas I haven't seen the pit of the Buff for going on 8 months now.  Parental leave has left my hair 6 inches long and plenty of facial hair to boot!

Good luck with that Concorde Bomber slot - I hear this year they are accepting pipes.

Seriously though - to weigh in on what my esteemed colleages have already posted (ok you too Bograt). 

My only advice to pilot applicants for the CF is not to get a PPL - not only because it would be a big waste of money, but it would also limit your chances in being able to repeat PFT (the only flight training course that can be done over).  The caveat to being able to take PFT over is that you must wait one year and must have achieved the next level in flight training on your own dime.  Therefore, if you already had your PPL, you would need to get your CPL.  If you already were a CPL licensed pilot you would need to get your ATPL(airline pilots license).

BBBB you need to switch to receive mode and lay off on the transmit button for a while - you are spouting utter nonsense and leading others astray with your wild and unsubstantiated comments.  I especially enjoyed this little tidbit:

I for one did well on my flight test and can fly a plane without any of the sloppy habits some people attach to PPL and CPL pilots.

My answer to that presumptious quote would be: "How do you know what bad habits you may or may not have?"

Come back on these means in about 3 years, when you have your wings (or not) and we'll chat...

Z

 

[Bograt]

Let me weigh in with my tremendous wealth of experience. Last course, a standards pilot from Moose gave all us baby pilots a heads up of what we can expect. I'll quickly share.

1. Military flying is quite different from civilian flying. "Correct to the ideal."

2. Members who have already soloed, have a much greater chance of getting through PFT than others- however people of various levels of flight experience fail to meet the standards required to move on to the Jaw. Likewise, people with no experience can and do succeed regularly.

3. The CF does not set people up for failure. It gives people all the tools required to empower people to improve and succeed within the pilot training system.

4. Aptitude, Drive, Personality- Very important when it comes to determining how successful one will be. (But isn't that true for everything in life?)

A lot of these similar posts appear to search for the "magic password" that will enable people to get their wings. There is no secret handshake- and it isn't personal. Many people have gone before you, and many more will go after you. Some will get their wings, some will not. Regardless, wings on your chest is no indication of how successful you career will be.

For those that want to fly and want the sure thing- stay on civie street. For the others who dare to dream and take the chance maybe we have what you want.

---
Inch sorry I missed you while I was in Halifax this week. I owe you a beverage. Zoomie, thanks for including me with Duey and Inch. I may not be a Winged CF pilot, but I play one on army.ca.

 

[Zach15]

  I think Bograt made a very important point with saying how everyone is looking for the "magic password" that will make them pass some part of their journey towards getting CF wings.

  Although army.ca is an invaluable resource, no one can tell you what to expect at any stage of the process. For me, the information I gained here was great but it really didn't give me much of an edge when I was actually having testing done - that kind of stuff you just simply have to experience for yourself. With that said, of course it doesn't hurt to gain information on what you are about to be getting yourself into.

   When (and if) I get an offer for pilot and to have a career in the Canadian forces, I plan on being the most determined sonnuvabitch possible. Hard work and focus I think are the two most important things you can do: If you have the potential, and most people who get through ACS apparently do, then you should be able to make it through if you give every thing you do 110%. At least that is my theory anyways, and I am going to rely on me centering my life around learning everything they try and teach me. I plan on going with zero expectations so they can mold me how they want to.

   - Zach

 

[Inch]

Zach,

That's a damn good theory and good advice. On the flip side and by this I don't mean to say it's directed at you, but in general, if you give it everything you've got and it doesn't work out, at least you know you did all that you could and it just wasn't meant to be. If you slack off then you'll always be left wondering if you could have succeeded had you put more effort in.

Good luck in your recruiting process and we all look forward to having keen, motivated people joining us in the cockpit.

 

[Zach15]

if you give it everything you've got and it doesn't work out, at least you know you did all that you could and it just wasn't meant to be.

Exactly. I wouldn't be able to live with the "what if" question.

Good luck in your recruiting process and we all look forward to having keen, motivated people joining us in the cockpit.

   Thanks! Only time will tell...


   - Zach