Pay Increase

[Michael OLeary]

lol, i know.  It makes for good conversation though, especially when civilians think they have a shmick about our lives. :warstory:

Let them do the math comparing a pay increase of a few percentage against putting our pay on a "civilian" footing and paying overtime.  I know one gentleman who retired from the Navy and was employed as a civilian inspector at Halifax Dockyard. Because of his unique skills and experience, there was a requirement for him to sail for a week on  one of the Oberon subs, for which received his basic wage for 8 hours per day, time and a half for the next eight hours, and double time for the third eight hours - all based on the consideration that simply being there denied him any civilian equivalent of the off-duty chance to remove himself from the workplace and its hazards.

Even with our current "parity" with the civil service wage structure, service mebers are cheap by any comparative estimate based on what a civilian would expect for similar workplace demands. And in a world where an auto mechanic can charge $60 per hour, any argument that soldiers are overpaid because they may only have a high schol education is fallacious.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Michael,
...a very good point that I wanted to post last night, but hey my shift was up! ;D
I would be making about the same money[base] that I would be making if I were still in, the big difference is, tonight I'm staying 4 hours over my shift and will make the same amount of money that I would make by spending 10 days in the field  ,and if they told you to stay 4 hours extra tonight what would you get?.....4 hours less with your family.

To me that is the BIG difference, I know my days off for the next year, if need be, I can earn extra money, most military personall cannot, therefore if you have not lived the life, do not think for a second these men and women are overpaid.

 

[Sapper6]

Perhaps most importantly we face â Å“ultimate liabilityâ ?.  No one else in Canada can be ordered into a situation where the likely outcome is death and be liable to judicial punishment for refusing to obey that order.  This includes civilian fire fighters and police.  

Agreed.  It all comes down to "ultimate liability".   How does one put a wage on the price of duty?   IMHO we all get paid reasonably well for what we do in general; however, the soldiers who die from friendly fire, mine strikes, fighting fires on subs, or lost a hand touching wires underwater during the Red River floods - didn't serve their country for a weekly paycheque.

It may not be the perfect system but pay comparibility to the Public Service is reasonable until a better model comes along. 

S6

 

[Gunner98]

Folks...Let's use the correct terminology - it is Unlimited Liability - and no - we don't get paid extra for it.  We accept it when we take the Oath of Allegiance.  Risk and Hardship allowances have been added and increased to account for this.  Not all of us are called daily to risk life or kill others in the line of duty.  But by taking the oath, we accept that we may be called to do so according to law (NDA).

Background from Somalia Inquiry docs at http://www.dnd.ca/somalia/vol1/v1c5e.htm :

"Moreover, the service to be performed by Canada's military is total, involving what British General Sir John Hackett has called the "clause of unlimited liability" -- or loss of life:

The essential basis of military life is the ordered application of force under an unlimited liability. It is the unlimited liability, which sets the man who embraces this life somewhat apart. He will be (or should be) always a citizen. So long as he serves he will never be a civilian.

The concept of unlimited liability in defence of national interests distinguishes members of the military profession from other professions. Furthermore, the military allows for the lawful killing of others in the performance of duty. Moreover, the responsibility of military leadership permits the sacrifice of soldiers' lives in order to achieve military objectives. The stark and brutal reality of these differences from normal society has traditionally been a distinguishing feature of military life, contributing to a sense of separateness -- even superiority -- in relation to the civilian population.

Ultimate liability is what the Crown takes for actions while in uniform under the Crown Liability Act.  Nuff said...carry on.

 

[Sapper6]

Folks...Let's use the correct terminology - it is Unlimited Liability - and no - we don't get paid extra for it.   We accept it when we take the Oath of Allegiance.   Risk and Hardship allowances have been added and increased to account for this.   Not all of us are called daily to risk life or kill others in the line of duty.   But by taking the oath, we accept that we may be called to do so according to law (NDA).

Gunner98,

You are absolutely correct.  Being Army staffed trained, I'm embarrassed that I didn't catch that one... too quick to push send I guess.  Thanks for the correction.

Sapper6

 

[54/102 CEF]

Ref unlimited liability

I think that`s been discredited - there are risks but to say that its unlimited is not really true - it might have been true for the human wave attacks of 1914 but its not today.

If the government dleays equpt replacements and underfunds DND - the frontline troops risk goes way up sooner or later.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Ref unlimited liability

I think that`s been discredited - there are risks but to say that its unlimited is not really true - it might have been true for the human wave attacks of 1914 but its not today.

If the government dleays equpt replacements and underfunds DND - the frontline troops risk goes way up sooner or later.

How exactly has the concept that a member of the Canadian Forces may be ordered into a area or situation where the course of their duties may result in injury or loss of life been "discredited"?

 

[Chief Clerk]

Bullets dont put food on the table, or pay for your kids education.  If we keep telling everyone we are WELL paid - we will revert back to the days when we were NOT paid well (some of us certainly recall those days - where putting food on the table was far from as easy as it is today
). Some of us actually work well past what the Govt pay us! Not saying we are POOR by any means, but keep telling the public your well paid and we will revert to the GOOD (BAD) old days of little to very poor pay.

 

[S McKee]

Bullets dont put food on the table, or pay for your kids education.   If we keep telling everyone we are WELL paid - we will revert back to the days when we were NOT paid well (some of us certainly recall those days - where putting food on the table was far from as easy as it is today
). Some of us actually work well past what the Govt pay us! Not saying we are POOR by any means, but keep telling the public your well paid and we will revert to the GOOD (BAD) old days of little to very poor pay.

Agreed! I remember the "good bad ole days" too, paycheck to paycheck no pay raise. The Queen gets her monies worth out of me. J

 

[54/102 CEF]

How exactly has the concept that a member of the Canadian Forces may be ordered into a area or situation where the course of their duties may result in injury or loss of life been "discredited"?

Michael - I didn't talk about any concepts - I said unlimited liability isn't - and if I had the time I could show you where this term has been dredged up from old time Brit terminology - but I don't right now - but will keep an eye out for the ref (I was a bit amazed to see it played down the way it has been - but don't take my word for it - but just that clue should help you on your search for any concepts you may be interested in.) My point is - its been rejected elsewhere and as you'll see below - has been clearly rejected in Canada as it applies to the military

Its like this

The government says send troops

DND sends the troops the government says send - DND having previously trained the troops to their usual high standards

The government accepts the risk there may be losses - the troops accept the pay and benefits

You may say not so - we do it for our buddies - that is true but they also do it at a handsome wage while they are gone.

Don`t add in anything but the facts here. No one forces anyone to go into the military.

In the book CARNAGE AND CULTURE by Victor Davis Hanson ISBN: 0385720386 - published 2002 he makes the observation that western armies are Mercenary (think OPERATIONAL PAY AND TAX FREE PAY AND LTA AND WIFE COMES TO VISIT YOU)

vs. WW1, WW2 and Korea and the grasping existence of short service troops of those eras.

Still not convinced? Get the book.

Still not convinced? Why after all these years does the government equate DND pay with the civil service?

In the view of the Crown - the all seeing all powerful self that is our government that can have Gene Cretin get off scot free for spreading the pork to his buddies - let Jane Stewart spread the pork to her buddies - let the gun control program spread pork to their buddies - pay RCMP constables a princes wage to start as patrolmen -

The lowly soldier who has more destructive power at his finger tips than ever in our history

Is just a civil servant.

Still disagree? Defence minister rips military policy paper as 'dreck', demands rewrite
STEPHEN THORNE, Canadian Press

OTTAWA (CP) - Defence Minister Bill Graham has tossed out initial drafts of the department's comprehensive policy review, calling it "dreadful dreck" and demanding a clear bold vision.

Graham's frustration shows how difficult it can be to propel conservative generals and defence bureaucrats in a radically new direction, particularly in a minority government. Policy-makers at National Defence had been labouring on a blueprint for the future of Canada's military for almost a year when Graham arrived there in July.

DND has no friends http://news.channels.aol.ca/news/article.adp?id=20050211165809990018 until the roof falls in

Tommy this and Tommy that ..............

 

[camochick]

Yes, we knew what we signed up for, but that is not reason to esentially tell military families to "put up or shut up".

My family (my hubby, myself and my children) has had the pleasure of existing both as civilians trying to cut it working in the education system, and now as a military family. Both my hubby and I agree, that when he swore in and signed on the dotted line, so did I - in invisible ink. We both were very aware as to what our sacrifices would be (ranging from my hubby not able to be at the birth of his first born, not meeting him till he was 2 months old - to having to meet in clandestine so that I could take his kit home and wash it for him while he was on course). Knowing does not make it any easier. I am so tired of hearing civilians judge military families for complaining. I was civilian, I used to judge, I am now ashamed that I ever did. The military life is vastly different from that of civilian life....I have lived both, I can attest, and until you have lived it, you will never fully understand.

We are one of those mature families with kids, barely able to make the ends meet. Would I trade it? heck NO! The experience, and the people have helped me grow in ways I cannot describe. As for the raise, bring it on, a cost of living raise, just might cover the increase in both rent and insurance rates that we have experienced over the last 4 years.

I appologize now, for anyone that I may have offended with my rant, but I needed to get that off of my chest. Thanks for letting me vent.

I agree that the military should be paid well enough to support their families. I am alos not your average civilian, since I grew up in the military and have had ties to it since birth. I am way more knowledgable than most civilians and I am not judging the military by any means. I am a huge supporter and I plan on dedicating my career to making the general population aware of the issues surrounding the military. Do I have more to learn, of course I do, I am learning more and more everyday. Great the military is getting a pay raise, I am glad, of course people should be able to support their families. But I know the pay scales and who makes what and I happen to think that it is adequate, but some don't. I was mearly expressing an opinion and I am glad that so many have responded with well thought out rebuttals.

 

[Michael OLeary]

54/102,

despite opinions on the semantic accuracy of the phrase "unlimited liability" it remains the term in common usage describing that aspect of a soldier's (sailors' or airman's) duties that he/she may expect that they can be directed into acivities that may result in their death or injury, while other "government employees" have stringent regulations to protect themselves from any similar such conditions. That aspect, regardless of its veracity or applicability across trades, ranks and units, is one factor that deserves some small measure of consideration in the development of equitable reimbursement for the contracted "labour." While the individual's motivation may be to "fight with his buddies" or to receive a well-appointed salary and benefits package, in a volunteer force if we depended solely on the first to bring candidates in the door, our current recruiting problems would be a shadow of their potential conditions, even if accepting the latter is to result in some considering the modern soldier to be a mercenary by definition.

 

[54/102 CEF]

"Deserves consideration" is not strong enough - I suspect if more people knew the conditions the active force serves in - as reserves may do the same job in Canada but are not paid the same - then the pay for the active force might be significantly higher than RCMP wage scales.

The public can see an RCMP or OPP cleaning up the aftermath of a car crashs - or nasty public safety events - but the public rarely sees the solders do their thing.

Hence - out of sight - out of mind.

Its not right - but I suspect it`s how it is.

 

[Pte. Bloggins]

Does anyone know how the pay raise will affect reservists? (ie. do we just get a 6.5%-or whatever the magic number is- more on our day/half-day's pay? I'm guessing that's what it is...

 

[perry]

We will get our retro pay per each day worked and half of that for each  half day worked

 

[Navalsnpr]

Check out the CF Personnel Newsletter:

2004 pay increases delay

 

[Spooks]

Yes, we knew what we signed up for, but that is not reason to esentially tell military families to "put up or shut up".

My family (my hubby, myself and my children) has had the pleasure of existing both as civilians trying to cut it working in the education system, and now as a military family. Both my hubby and I agree, that when he swore in and signed on the dotted line, so did I - in invisible ink. We both were very aware as to what our sacrifices would be (ranging from my hubby not able to be at the birth of his first born, not meeting him till he was 2 months old - to having to meet in clandestine so that I could take his kit home and wash it for him while he was on course). Knowing does not make it any easier. I am so tired of hearing civilians judge military families for complaining. I was civilian, I used to judge, I am now ashamed that I ever did. The military life is vastly different from that of civilian life....I have lived both, I can attest, and until you have lived it, you will never fully understand.

We are one of those mature families with kids, barely able to make the ends meet. Would I trade it? heck NO! The experience, and the people have helped me grow in ways I cannot describe. As for the raise, bring it on, a cost of living raise, just might cover the increase in both rent and insurance rates that we have experienced over the last 4 years.

I appologize now, for anyone that I may have offended with my rant, but I needed to get that off of my chest. Thanks for letting me vent.

Cost of living raise? It's not hard to raise people on the wages we get. With all the extra pay we get (some of it even non taxable) we make over enough. Field pay, seperation pay, hazard pay - all things that get added on. I was raised in a single-parent household of three boys on an income of not even half of what I make at the moment. We paid the same rent, paid same for food and we lived okay. There is even the extra pay you get in the military based on your location and the average cost of living there.

I am very lucky to be in this job, with the little skillbase that I have and make as much as I do. You know what I believe would be far more beneficial to the military than a 'cost of living pay' increase? Dump ALL of that money into training, into equipment, into things that benefit the Forces as a whole. We, as a Canadian society, complain that the CF doesn't have any transport aircraft to move our troops, or how we have to use green camo in a brown desert, or having to shout 'bang bang' at EN force because we don't have enough ammunition to train with. Dump every single last penny of the 'raise' into things like that and bulk up our abilities. That would make our job a lot more enjoyable knowing that we are A) Using our time wisely rather than 'wasting it on another make-work task' B) Increase our skills so there is a smaller chance that Johnny will die because of a lack of training that would have kept him alive, and C) Be recognised on the world stage as an indepedent military that can pull its own weight rather than hopping on the back of other, more well-equipped countries like the US, Britain, or even Russia for that matter.

I would much rather make this job better to be in than being handed more money and told to forget about the issues at hand.

My 3 rubles
-Spooks

 

[aesop081]

Yes, we knew what we signed up for, but that is not reason to esentially tell military families to "put up or shut up".

My family (my hubby, myself and my children) has had the pleasure of existing both as civilians trying to cut it working in the education system, and now as a military family. Both my hubby and I agree, that when he swore in and signed on the dotted line, so did I - in invisible ink. We both were very aware as to what our sacrifices would be (ranging from my hubby not able to be at the birth of his first born, not meeting him till he was 2 months old - to having to meet in clandestine so that I could take his kit home and wash it for him while he was on course). Knowing does not make it any easier. I am so tired of hearing civilians judge military families for complaining. I was civilian, I used to judge, I am now ashamed that I ever did. The military life is vastly different from that of civilian life....I have lived both, I can attest, and until you have lived it, you will never fully understand.

We are one of those mature families with kids, barely able to make the ends meet. Would I trade it? Hell NO! The experience, and the people have helped me grow in ways I cannot describe. As for the raise, bring it on, a cost of living raise, just might cover the increase in both rent and insurance rates that we have experienced over the last 4 years.

I appologize now, for anyone that I may have offended with my rant, but I needed to get that off of my chest. Thanks for letting me vent.

If it is sympathy you are looking for let me tell you that you are SOL.  It was your choice to have children, not the CF's.......you decide how you spend your money, the CF doesent.  I have a raise a family of 4 on a Cpl's salary and managed to own a house in Edmonton, a car and live quite comfortably. My family also managed to live weel during the wage freeze when i was only at private 2 pay.  I suspect that there is a big expensive SUV or truck in your driveway and that you can "barely make ends meet" because you have made a concious choice to live beyond your means. Has your husband been on any tours lately ?  What have you chosen to do with all the extra money ?

We get paid quite well people.  My dad ( a 22-year CF member himself) told me when i joined that i would never be rich in this line of work. It didn't bother me as i got in with the "service before thy self" outlook.  I have paid the price that goes along with that and i still don't care about the money. Remember that we as military pers ( and families by extension) have benefits that go along with our pay that are very expensive on civy street and that not all jobs out there give you those benefits ( medical, dental, paid time off, LTA, MFRC,.......)

Artywife,

I do not sympathise one bit, and i have lived the life so you canot waive that one in my face.  Camochick is a military brat and used to live with me so she knows what the life is and i support her view.

 

[CdnArtyWife]

If it is sympathy you are looking for let me tell you that you are SOL.   It was your choice to have children, not the CF's.......you decide how you spend your money, the CF doesent.   I have a raise a family of 4 on a Cpl's salary and managed to own a house in Edmonton, a car and live quite comfortably. My family also managed to live weel during the wage freeze when i was only at private 2 pay.   I suspect that there is a big expensive SUV or truck in your driveway and that you can "barely make ends meet" because you have made a concious choice to live beyond your means. Has your husband been on any tours lately ?   What have you chosen to do with all the extra money ?

We get paid quite well people.   My dad ( a 22-year CF member himself) told me when i joined that i would never be rich in this line of work. It didn't bother me as i got in with the "service before thy self" outlook.   I have paid the price that goes along with that and i still don't care about the money. Remember that we as military pers ( and families by extension) have benefits that go along with our pay that are very expensive on civy street and that not all jobs out there give you those benefits ( medical, dental, paid time off, LTA, MFRC,.......)

Artywife,

I do not sympathise one bit, and i have lived the life so you canot waive that one in my face.   Camochick is a military brat and used to live with me so she knows what the life is and i support her view.

I am not looking for sympathy, not in the slightest. This life is a choice we made, and we made it proudly.

I could go into the details of our money coming in vs. money going out woes, but I don't need to, you don't want to hear it, no one does, and I don't like to spew it. I will, however, clarify that - no, we do not have a big SUV in the yard....it is a 93 Dodge Shadow with paint flicking off and a MVI rejection sticker on it....and in no condition to drive. My hubby has only been in for 3 years....and only months ago did he finally get out of the training system. He has no tours under his belt, but you can't be deployed if you are not yet operational. He is looking forward to a tour, but money is not the reason, experience, and the sense of duty calls him.

I posted that mostly because I am tired of hearing from people who say they are my supporters (my family) that live in a "military town" who tell me that they are tired of hearing all the (and I quote my sister here) "poor little wives crying boo hoo everytime their hubby is gone for 6 months". I fully appreciate the sacrifices that single parent families make on a daily basis. I too, agree with most of what Camogirl is saying. I would just prefer that if people think that we military folk (members and family alike) are whining and crying about this or that, to please just put theirselves in your/our shoes first, look at it from our point of view, try to empathise. If, after this, they still see it the same way....don't complain to me, and make blanket statements about all military families. I respect everyone's opinion, I may not agree with some, but I still respect them.

 

[jc5778]

This potential pay increase is exactly why I chose my handle, remember all those saying the increase would be announce LAST monday?  Yah in 7 - 10 days we will know.  Standard answer, good at any time!!