Paid parking DND property

[dapaterson]

I've actually pondered taking my kayak to the ship on a nice warm day during the summer....I wonder what they'd do?

Send out the ready duty ship to investigate.

 

[Remius]

Send out the ready duty ship to investigate.

At least everyone will have had lunch.  No one wants to stop kayaks on an empty stomach.

 

[Pat in Halifax]

I remember years ago a fellow stoker used to bring his little 14' aluminum boat with a 20hp Evinrude on it to Nipigon from Eastern Passage. When the Coxn told him he wasn't allowed to do that, he asked the Coxn "Show me where it says that". In those days though, you didn't need to see rules; If the Coxn said no can do, then no can do!

On the lighter side just to really stir the pot, that nice big parking garage ISI has now, the one built likely with some of the monies provided in the $238 M 'advance', is currently providing FREE PARKING for ISI employees.

 

[jollyjacktar]

That's true, Pat.  My son is one of the lucky contestants.  (When he's not on lay off...)

 

[garb811]

You, are an outsider and out of your lanes, to be quite frank.  I say this, because I came from your trade, worked here in it in Halifax and know the difference between the two worlds.  Many people are unhappy with the direction the RCN is going with respect to changes that are ongoing.  Some of it to be fair can be tacked onto leadership issues or lack thereof but that is not everyone's burr under the saddle blanket.

As for your slamming Pusser's reasoning, again, you're out of your lanes.  He makes valid points on health and habitabilty concerns which are real and viable.  On ship you are living and working in a contained system, anything that could adversely affect the health and fitness of the crew is a real concern.  Unless you've spent time at sea, you cannot appreciate how much you are affected by these factors.  There is a reason cleaning stations, however much they suck doing them, are important. 

Pusser's reasoning on productivy/cost is sound.  Unlike Army bases, and yes, I served in 1CMBG, don't have the same needs as HMC Ships.  There are many factors that come into making sure sailors are available for work on time when required.  Both FMF and/or contractors may be on board doing major repairs to the ship on a tight timeline or schedule.  Planning for the projects can take weeks and months and can cost many millions of dollars.  It a project gets off track for whatever reason it can have a major detrimental effect on operations and deployments for that or other units.  Army units don't have the same logistical/repair needs a ship does, therefore there is much room to disagree with you on.  Productivity was one of the main reasons "sliders" were stopped.  FMF was not getting the work done on time that they needed to complete due to personnel issues on ship.  As much as I don't always agree with Pusser on things, he is more correct on this subject despite your objections.

Sorry, I'm well inside my lanes on this one.  This is not a conversation about how to prosecute a sub contact, how to conduct DC or even how to change the oil on a RHIB.  It's an issue that concerns leadership, fiscal responsibility and most importantly common sense. 

You argue it's a potential hygiene problem.  It's not.  Much larger ships with much less disciplined personnel on board who could care less about hygiene are able to continue to sail without massive infestations of vermin...they're called cruise ships.  And the companies have a vested interest in 1) making sure they remain vermin free while 2) keeping their passengers happy by allowing them to eat what they want, where they want.  They can seem to figure out how to pull it off and if they get it wrong, and they have to go to the extreme measures that Pusser alleges would be required, they are not only out the cost of the fumigation of a much, much larger vessel than anything we own, but also the lost revenues from cancelled and refunded sailings and the negative hit to their reputation.  Yet you guys are worried a sailor may store his lunch in his locker and from that you will be over run with cockroaches, mice and rats?  Yeah...sounds legit to me.  If the concern is that valid, simply treat everyone like adults and hammer anyone who breaks the rule about where lunches are to be stored.  Wasn't that the argument being made to counter the change to the drinking policy?  The group should not be punished for the transgressions of a very few?  Well, in this instance it is reversed, the group should not be benefiting from the potential transgressions of the very few.

You argue sailors need to be available to support the work of multi-million dollar projects.  Another non-issue if leadership is exercised.  It's called personnel management and it is what we, as leaders, are paid to do.  Make sure our people are available at the right time, at the right place, ready to do the job.  If planning for the job takes weeks and months, ergo the leadership of the ship has weeks and months to plan as to how it is they are going to make the right people available at the right time in order to support that task.  You don't feed the entire ship's company the entire time the ship is tied up alongside on the contingency that a small number of that ship's company are going to be required to work over lunch a couple of times a year.  And, that work is being conducted, for the most part, by Union workers.  Those guys down tools and head off for lunch and they make sure they take the entire time they are allowed...again, for the most part but particularly if the are part of the FMF.  On the very rare occasion things go sideways and people need to work over lunch to make things happen, do what the rest of us in the CAF do; utilize the existing rules and regulations to compensate our personnel who are forced to work over lunch via a MTEC or if you can preplan it, provide a Fin Code to the MOG5 galley and send the affected people there or hay box it to the ship. 

Imagine the outcry if I were to try to argue that MP in Halifax on patrol should be entitled to a free lunch because they have to cover the entire Halifax AOR so the patrolman might not be able to make it back to the Guardhouse for lunch.  Further, they have to be ready to respond at any time as a call for service can come in at any time.  And then, I try to expand that reasoning to providing lunch to the shift IC because they have to be available to supervise that patrolman.  And,well, if the Shift IC has to be available to supervise the patrolman, the Pol Ops WO needs to get a free lunch because he needs to be available just in case the Shift IC is tied up and, well, what the hell, even though the Unit Chief and CO of MPU Halifax and the rest of the day staff aren't actually doing the work on the road, they are at work and part of the Unit so ergo, they deserve free lunch as well.  Oh...and by the way, when I was at Halifax, the Guardhouse was infested with ants, mice and other vermin and that certainly didn't get us a free lunch, or a fumigation.  What it did get us was a lecture from the PMed Tech and a supply of mice and ant traps even though the infestation was not caused by unhygienic food practices by people who had to bring their lunch to work.

Pretty crap simple really.  Leadership 101.  Well within "my lanes".

Finally, think about this for a minute, and I'm going to low ball the costs.  1 x frigate's company of 200 pers.  $5 per day per person for "free soup and lunch" = $750 per day.  $3750 per week.  $15000 per month.  If all 12 frigates are back in the water and tied up alongside, that's $180,000 a month in free food the Navy is funding.

Yet Navyshooter is able to paddle his kayak right up to the jetty without worrying about being intercepted by anyone because the RCN cut the armed guards from the gates and boats from the water because it was too expensive.  Again, a simplified estimate, but $180,000 is the salary of about 38 Reg Force Cpl/LS per month, which is about the total number of Class B pers employed in FP at it's height to protect the Fleet.  So, security = expensive = bad.  But free soup and lunch = expensive = good.  Priorities, right?

 

[jollyjacktar]

No.  You're out of your lanes, when it comes to what I am talking about, period.  I used to drive in your lanes, you're an outsider who doesn't live and work in the same enviornment as I said.  Don't agree?  TFB, we'll just have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

 

[garb811]

At least everyone will have had lunch.  No one wants to stop kayaks on an empty stomach.

By the time they are able to agree to who is actually responsible to stop the kayak, find a currently qualified small boat cox'n and bowman, track down a RHIB that is ready to go and then actually get on the water, Navyshooter will be on his way back home after having finished his day.

 

[Stoker]

Our ships are the same as cruise ships?........ :

 

[garb811]

No.  You're out of your lanes, when it comes to what I am talking about, period.  I used to drive in your lanes, you're an outsider who doesn't live and work in the same enviornment as I said.  Don't agree?  TFB, we'll just have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Well, what the hell, might as well invoke Godwin's Law then.  You know who else supported free parking, soup and lunches right?  Hitler!  :

 

[mariomike]

You know who else supported free parking, soup and lunches right?  Hitler!  :

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/lVWzFCR_y6Y/maxresdefault.jpg

 

[kratz]

Our ships are the same as cruise ships?........ :

I'm still laughing so hard at this comparison. Shuffle board on the poop deck anyone?    :cheers:

 

[garb811]

Our ships are the same as cruise ships?........ :

No, they aren't.  The only people on a RCN ship are disciplined professionals with a clear and distinct chain of command which is able to enforce standards and norms to protect the health, safety and welfare of each and every other individual on that ship.  Further, there are well defined customs and practices, such as cleaning stations, that ensure the entire crew is involved in maintaining the cleanliness of the ship.  Unlike a cruise ship where the vast majority of people on the vessel are solely concerned about having a good time and could care less about the potential problems they are causing as they go about their daily activities, trusting that the crew is going to clean up after them.

Yet you can't trust a RCN sailor to store his lunch in a fridge.

 

[Stoker]

I'm still laughing so hard at this comparison. Shuffle board on the poop deck anyone?    :cheers:

Only after I get my stand easy soup ;D

 

[jollyjacktar]

Yet you can't trust a RCN sailor to store his lunch in a fridge.

Fine. Final comment.  Just where the hell are you supposed to put these fridges and microwaves that can hold up to a full complement (250) of sailor's lunches?  :

 

[Eye In The Sky]

The last 3 pages are pure fucking pain to go thru.  Free lunches,  cleaning stations and kayaks.

:deadhorse:

 

[Halifax Tar]

Fine. Final comment.  Just where the hell are you supposed to put these fridges and microwaves that can hold up to a full complement (250) of sailor's lunches?  :

With his vast Naval knowledge I would estimate he would suggest we use the ships fridges and dry food storage spaces.  You know because we just store any food in those spaces anyways.  None of the food that goes in to those spaces gets inspected by the Snr PA, Victualler and Snr Storesmnan anyways.  We normally just let anyone bring any food they want into these spaces anyhow.  :

His comparison of ship of war to a cruise ship and the fact he has no understanding of cleaning stations or habitability rounds lost him his argument.  Well done JJT chalk that one up in the win column for you!

 

[Halifax Tar]

No, they aren't.  The only people on a RCN ship are disciplined professionals with a clear and distinct chain of command which is able to enforce standards and norms to protect the health, safety and welfare of each and every other individual on that ship.  Further, there are well defined customs and practices, such as cleaning stations, that ensure the entire crew is involved in maintaining the cleanliness of the ship.  Unlike a cruise ship where the vast majority of people on the vessel are solely concerned about having a good time and could care less about the potential problems they are causing as they go about their daily activities, trusting that the crew is going to clean up after them.

Yet you can't trust a RCN sailor to store his lunch in a fridge.

Sounds like he is describing the folks who come from the wardroom to me bahahahaha  >

 

[jollyjacktar]

The last 3 pages are pure ******* pain to go thru.  Free lunches,  cleaning stations and kayaks.

:deadhorse:

At least you get free parking... just say'n 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

True.  But I lost my Hfx PLD to get it.  ;D

For the record, I don't think taxpayers should have to pay to park on parking lots that were paid for with tax dollars.  That includes CAF mbrs.

I remember being told to read the MARLANT parking orders when I was posted in to a dockyard unit before my current trade.  It was 29 freakin' pages IIRC.  :facepalm:

I dont like the comments from non-sea trades speaking like they are SMEs on navy life because they were working on the Dockyard or visited a ship.  Having a cursory view into life while along side doesn't really give you an informed opinion does it?  If you came as a PAX on an ASW event with us, would you frown and criticize LRP for our free flight feeding? We too could brown bag it but we dont.  The wing kitchen prepares and provides IAW their trade standards which are approved and regulated by the CAF log/cook SMEs. 

Opinions/informed opinions.  :2c:

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The last 3 pages are pure fucking pain to go thru.  Free lunches,  cleaning stations and kayaks.

:deadhorse:

Not just the last three pages, but all 21 of them. This thread was started in June 2007, complete with merges of other threads on exactly the same subject.

All the same salient points have been made ad infinitium*. There will be no agreement, ever, between the one side and the rest. Get your final jabs in, because the comment section on this will soon be closed.

If someone wants to know the reasons and provenance of the decision, on parking discussed here, feel free to contact the CF Ombudsman, and when you get an answer you can contact a Mod for inclusion on the subject. That will finalize the thread.

Tick, tock......

---Staff---



* - adverb (Latin) ≡endlessly, always, for ever (and ever), infinitely, eternally, perpetually, for all time, in perpetuity, interminably, to infinity, evermore, unceasingly, boundlessly, unendingly, limitlessly, in perpetuum (Latin), without end or limit "The cycle repeats itself ad infinitum."