Ordered to work on days off?

[TCM621]

I suppose now would be a good time to point out that my unit has a proforma for just this issue. We don't use them that aggressively, except for NES commandos. The other reason we use them is to forecast attendance at major training evolutions so that we can budget for such things as feeding etc. Fill out the form, pass it to your boss, problem solved.

Big fan of those. It makes it so easy there is no excuse to fill it out. Also email was invented recently.  I have heard good things about it.

 

[dapaterson]

Also email was invented recently.  I have heard good things about it.

I'm mixed about it in the Reserve context.

(1) It means that every staffer in a HQ with a stupid question can send it out to the world, instead of getting it vetted by their supervisor and being told "we already have that information". 

(2) It means that part-time leadership is now expected to be constantly responsive to point (1) and other nitnoid things that are neither urgent nor important.

(3) It means that proper recordkeeping has become a forgotten art.

(4) It means that we end up deluged with useless information and questions that detract from the core role of the military: training and preparing sailors, soldiers and aviators.


Just for fun, I suggested to a senior Reg F that he try to live with Reserve communications: You only get 4 hours per week when you can access the DWAN, which are the same 4 hours per week when you're allowed to see people face to face.  (As a senior officer, he gets his own computer - decided not to throw in "you have to fight to get computer access during that four hours because your peers need that one computer at the same time too").  All the rest of your work has to be done either on a BlackBerry or on an internet connected computer, and you can only deal with other people by phone or email.  Oh, and if you have computer problems, the help desk is closed.

Oddly enough, he wasn't interested in trying to work that way...

 

[The_Falcon]

Just for fun, I suggested to a senior Reg F that he try to live with Reserve communications: You only get 4 hours per week when you can access the DWAN, which are the same 4 hours per week when you're allowed to see people face to face.  (As a senior officer, he gets his own computer - decided not to throw in "you have to fight to get computer access during that four hours because your peers need that one computer at the same time too").  All the rest of your work has to be done either on a BlackBerry or on an internet connected computer, and you can only deal with other people by phone or email.  Oh, and if you have computer problems, the help desk is closed.

Oddly enough, he wasn't interested in trying to work that way...

Interesting that you mention that, as it's akin to something Timothy Feriss talks about in his book "The Four Hour Work Week"  He actually devotes an entire section about how most emails, meetings etc. are fluff, and as way of being more efficient (in the early steps), you let everyone know, you will only read and respond to emails twice a day, and between specific time frames (more or less, like I said, it's quite a detailed section)

 

[TwoTonShackle]

This is completely incorrect. While it is true that a person can only be charged under the disciplinary system for something that they do or fail to do as ordered while subject to the NDA, there are two things the chain of command CAN do:

- Give you an order on one period that you're subject to the NDA (draft a memo, appear here next Saturday, etc) and charge you the next time you are subject to the NDA for failing to do it; and

- Place you on remedial measures leading (eventually) to release for not doing your job, regardless of whether you were subject to the NDA in between or not.

I agree with part of your in your scenario, but that was not the scenario the OP presented.  He asked if he could be ordered from home.  At home, while not being paid, he is not subject to the NDA.  Any negative action resulting from the OP not complying with such requests (i.e. calls at home while not on Class A, B or C), would be an open and shut redress IMHO.  Just imagine the opening sentence of the IW/RW : "While at home and not on duty, did disobey a lawful command (actually request) to draft and submit a memorandum detailing why subject member was not able to attend unscheduled training."

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I don't know who this guy is and - like every single other person on this forum with the possible exception of the OP himself - have no knowledge of the fuller circumstances of the case from the scanty and perspective-skewed details provided. I was just correcting some manifestly wrong related information provided by another poster.

As for the topic itself, whether you regard the OP as a poor belaboured soul being oppressed by a ruthless CoC or as a potential chronic sh*tbird who needs correction is really just a Rorschach test blot to figure out your general perspective within the CF.

While my comment wasn't aimed directly at you, it appears you felt that shoe fit and laced that fucker up.

 

[TCM621]

I'm mixed about it in the Reserve context.

(1) It means that every staffer in a HQ with a stupid question can send it out to the world, instead of getting it vetted by their supervisor and being told "we already have that information". 

(2) It means that part-time leadership is now expected to be constantly responsive to point (1) and other nitnoid things that are neither urgent nor important.

(3) It means that proper recordkeeping has become a forgotten art.

(4) It means that we end up deluged with useless information and questions that detract from the core role of the military: training and preparing sailors, soldiers and aviators.


Just for fun, I suggested to a senior Reg F that he try to live with Reserve communications: You only get 4 hours per week when you can access the DWAN, which are the same 4 hours per week when you're allowed to see people face to face.  (As a senior officer, he gets his own computer - decided not to throw in "you have to fight to get computer access during that four hours because your peers need that one computer at the same time too").  All the rest of your work has to be done either on a BlackBerry or on an internet connected computer, and you can only deal with other people by phone or email.  Oh, and if you have computer problems, the help desk is closed.

Oddly enough, he wasn't interested in trying to work that way...

I spent almost 4 years as RSS and was a reservist for 6 years at the beginning of my career. So I am fairly conversant with reserve life.

I fully support the memo format for large issues but for small things, like why you can't make a training night, email is sufficient.  It also allows for a paper trail.

Edit: whether reg or res, all troops should have the email and/or phone number. An email chain is a simple solution for part time soldiers.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

When I was a reservist, I didn't treat people like idiotic droolers in some army adult daycare.  I spoke to my troops, kept parade states and didn't waste their time making them right a fuckin memo re-stating what they told me when I canvassed the troop as a group about ex attendance for example; they were missing the weekend ex because it was exam time or it was little Johny's birthday.  I recorded the reason on the Tp parade state that went to the Tp Ldr and 49C.

I would love to hear the ULA opinion on charging someone for not writing a memo.

 

[Monsoon]

When I was a reservist, I didn't treat people like idiotic droolers in some army adult daycare.  I spoke to my troops, kept parade states and didn't waste their time making them right a ****** memo re-stating what they told me when I canvassed the troop as a group about ex attendance for example; they were missing the weekend ex because it was exam time or it was little Johny's birthday.  I recorded the reason on the Tp parade state that went to the Tp Ldr and 49C.

I would love to hear the ULA opinion on charging someone for not writing a memo.

For whatever reason, you appear to be spoiling for a sh*t-flinging match. I'm not going to give it to you. I would estimate that in this case we're getting less than one-quarter of the full story.

 

[Haggis]

PPCLI Guy hit the nail right on  the head.

I have seen the full time HQ generated admin load on part-time Reserve units increase exponentially over the past few years.  It's now gotten to the point where there is not a hope in Hell that I can do everything I need to get done done in 37.5 days per year.  And it's a very rare night indeed when I actually get out of my office to see troops or make it to the Mess for a wobbly pop after training.  It's absolutely ridiculous.

Full time HQs generate 37.5 paid hours of work a week and demand (yes I said "demand") that Reserve units meet all their requirements in 6 to 12 paid hours per week.  Money that should be being spent on training is being used to support the (sometimes redundant and overlapping) demands of reports and returns,  RFIs, staff checks, queries, SAVs, inspections and audits.  This is exacerbated by exactly what dapaterson described as the tendency for staff weenies at all levels to reach right down to the Armoury floor looking for information, usually on very short notice.

I'm a civvy shift worker in a job that requires a fair bit of paid overtime each week.  I don't have an Army Blackberry as I cannot use one at work.  When I was RSM I had a DWAN laptop.  now, as Ops O I pop into the Armoury 2-3 times a week in addition to training and admin nights just to keep up on the e-mail flow and maintain some type of situational awareness. My Reg F Ops WO is brand new and still finding his way.  My Class A unit leadership has become accustomed to and accepting of receiving e-mail replies from me at odd hours (sometimes at 03h00 when I can't sleep after an evening shift).  The full-time HQ staffers who sleep with their Blackberries next to their beds are less understanding of a shift worker's schedule and resent my 03h00 replies to their "regret short notice - need this by 08h00 tomorrow" demands and RFIs sent while I was working.  Too bad.

 

[Scott]

I'm with the OP and hope he comes back to roadie updates, if any.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

I have seen the full time HQ generated admin load on part-time Reserve units increase exponentially over the past few years.  It's now gotten to the point where there is not a hope in Hell that I can do everything I need to get done done in 37.5 days per year.  And it's a very rare night indeed when I actually get out of my office to see troops or make it to the Mess for a wobbly pop after training.  It's absolutely ridiculous.

Haggis and I worked together when I was RSS, back in the day when computers were a new thing on the floor.  There was actually time to plan and conduct some very cool training, spend time with the troops, and have a wobby pop - mostly because my interface with the District HQ was by phone or snail mail.  We have dramatically over-complicated things, to the detriment of the readiness, effectiveness, viability and sustainability of the Reserves.

The only way to turn back the clock is to dramatically reduce both the CBG HQs and the full time unit staff.  Allow Class A leaders to lead, and Class A soldiers to soldier.  Bring the fun back to the life of the citizen soldier and stamp out the hydra-headed bureaucracy.

 

[chrisf]

I wouldn't exactly call this a "last minute" response, seeing as the OP clearly says, "I can't take on a work commitment with 2 to 5 days notice".

You would be mistaken then, 2 to 5 days is very short notice.

Anything that wasn't on the training calendar at least a couple of months in advance is short notice.

Come to think of it, I don't even see this as a work commitment!  The unit has asked him to provide support, he has declined the request based on what he deems "short notice", which by the way, "Class A" Reservists have every right to do regardless of the timelines involved, so the Unit is now trying to document just why he is turning down their

Unless it was a scheduled *unit* training event there's no requirement to document why he turned it down.

 

[OldSolduer]

Haggis and I worked together when I was RSS, back in the day when computers were a new thing on the floor.  There was actually time to plan and conduct some very cool training, spend time with the troops, and have a wobby pop - mostly because my interface with the District HQ was by phone or snail mail.  We have dramatically over-complicated things, to the detriment of the readiness, effectiveness, viability and sustainability of the Reserves.

The only way to turn back the clock is to dramatically reduce both the CBG HQs and the full time unit staff.  Allow Class A leaders to lead, and Class A soldiers to soldier.  Bring the fun back to the life of the citizen soldier and stamp out the hydra-headed bureaucracy.

I quite agree. We get too many "fastballs" at the last second, or emailed on a Monday asking for a response by Tuesday at 2200.
My BB is as busy as some Reg Force members.....and I'm expected to respond whether it is a parade night or not.

 

[X Royal]

I wouldn't exactly call this a "last minute" response, seeing as the OP clearly says, "I can't take on a work commitment with 2 to 5 days notice".

My guess DAA is that you are regular force.
And this is where the biggest problems in concepts occurs between regular and reserve force members.
2-5 days notice for a regular force member can generally be accommodated fairly easily.
For a reserve force member this can easily be next to impossible.
A regular force member does not have to arrange time off from their full time employment to accommodate an extra tasking.
Many employers will deny these short notice requests due to the businesses needs.
Even if approved it may require the member using their annual vacation time.
Many in civilian employment only get 2 weeks vacation a year and may not want to give up their yearly vacation for a short notice tasking generated by some headquarters.
Regular force members are not being asked to use up their annual vacation due to a short notice tasking either.
At times regular force members don't even realize what their requests require of the reserve force member at best and at worse some times don't care if getting the task filled will make the asking member look good as opposed to failing to meet their mission of getting the task filled.
By the way I have served both in the regular and reserve forces and have had the opportunity to see this from both sides.

 

[Haggis]

I wouldn't exactly call this a "last minute" response, seeing as the OP clearly says, "I can't take on a work commitment with 2 to 5 days notice".

Let's overlay a Class A timeline on this:

Day 1 AM:  HQ comes up with a good idea tasking. 

Day 1 PM: The staff mull over it for a bit, cost it out, find the details and turn it into a tasking order.  They then send it on the units to fill by e-mail, likely to a positional mailbox (+ArcticRiflesOps@Frozentown) .

Day 2 AM:  Unit full time staff see the e-mail.  They send the same to the Class A leadership to respond.

Day 2 PM:  Administration night.  Class A leadership sees the e-mail, buried among the other hundred or so that have accumulated since the last parade night.  It's not a training nights so there are no troops to canvass.  It sits unanswered.

Day 3 AM:  HQ, having seen the "read receipt" on the original query, knows the message has been received.  HQ gets antsy because the unit hasn't responded yet.  Sends off a "hastener".  Now, there's another e-mail in the Class A Queue.

Day 4 AM:  Unit full time staff see the hastener e-mail.  They send the same to the Class A leadership to respond. The Class A leadership is on night shift with their Blackberry turned off.  HQ sees the "read receipt" on the hastener.  Calls the unit demanding an answer.  Full time staff cannot answer the query until the next training night.

Day 4 PM:  Training night.  Unit Class A leadership canvass the soldiers and find a taker for the tasking.  The info is passed to the full time staff who inform the HQ.  It's now 23h00 on Day 4.

Day 5 AM:  HQ sees the message nominating the soldier to fill the tasking.

Voila!  5 days.  It can be as little as 2 days if the unit has it's training night early in the week.  If not, this is the usual Class A battle rhythm.

 

[chrisf]

Haggis - that's 5 days before it even gets to the end soldier... assuming that end solider is getting 2-5 days notice, you're looking at a minimum of a week to two weeks.

 

[Haggis]

Haggis - that's 5 days before it even gets to the end soldier... assuming that end solider is getting 2-5 days notice, you're looking at a minimum of a week to two weeks.

Understood entirely.  My example is based only on the timeline of notification.  Yes, the soldier may need additional days/weeks to arrange for time off and then attend the task.

 

[RedcapCrusader]

I love getting 19hrs notice for confirmation of crse start.

Thank you Brigade, you're the best.

 

[brihard]

I love getting 19hrs notice for confirmation of crse start.

Thank you Brigade, you're the best.

Builds character. Now shut up, you'll take the employment you're given, and be damned grateful for it.

What do you mean you found a second job?

 

[Robert0288]

I love getting 19hrs notice for confirmation of crse start.

Thank you Brigade, you're the best.

Better than a notice that your already 3 days late for a tasking you didn't know about.