Op PRESENCE/Mali (Cdn mission/s, sitreps, etc. - merged)

[Scott]

There's no doubt hagan is obnoxious and argumentative.

But those are often the characteristics of people who stray from political correctness.

I find it ironic that recceguy, who by his signature, claims to be against political correctness, berates a guy for not adhering to the forum orthodoxy of bowing down before anything that E.R. Campbell writes.

You missed the part about the very questionable content. Convenient of you.

I'm not recceguy and I am telling you that you're trolling. Not because you're being politically incorrect - but because you're trolling.

I make that leap because you've done nothing to discuss the topic and have only served to drag more and more people into this little bunfight you want.

Next step is you being muted. Then you can kick and scream all you want about political correctness or how the Staff was out to get you - but you'll be doing it with yourself.

 

[Sythen]

There's no doubt hagan is obnoxious and argumentative.

But those are often the characteristics of people who stray from political correctness.

I find it ironic that recceguy, who by his signature, claims to be against political correctness, berates a guy for not adhering to the forum orthodoxy of bowing down before anything that E.R. Campbell writes.

If that's the way you feel, you don't have to visit this forum, you know? Seems the only one being "politically correct" here is yourself. There has been PLENTY of contrary views and opinions posted here.. Look at Redeye.. And there was someone who used to post a lot of Leftist view points before him that I can't remember his name. Are you surprised that people are tend to lean Right agree with the knowledgeable and well written posts ERC typically contributes? You are being overly sensitive because the forum expects people to back up any statements made by facts. You want people to listen to you just because you want to talk. That is political correctness.. Believing you are entitled to something (being listened to) just because you're you.

 

[Scott]

And again, if I am off topic in making that observation, then be coherent and tell the staff member that he is too.

I'll do nothing of the sort. The Staff member was doing their job as Staff. Just because you disagree, or have an issue with said Staff member, doesn't give you the right to derail a thread that has already suffered that fate enough.

Final warning.

 

[john10]

If that's the way you feel, you don't have to visit this forum, you know? Seems the only one being "politically correct" here is yourself. There has been PLENTY of contrary views and opinions posted here.. Look at Redeye.. And there was someone who used to post a lot of Leftist view points before him that I can't remember his name. Are you surprised that people are tend to lean Right agree with the knowledgeable and well written posts ERC typically contributes? You are being overly sensitive because the forum expects people to back up any statements made by facts. You want people to listen to you just because you want to talk. That is political correctness.. Believing you are entitled to something (being listened to) just because you're you.

Yes indeed, look at Redeye, he was banned!

 

[john10]

You missed the part about the very questionable content. Convenient of you.

I'm not recceguy and I am telling you that you're trolling. Not because you're being politically incorrect - but because you're trolling.

I make that leap because you've done nothing to discuss the topic and have only served to drag more and more people into this little bunfight you want.

Next step is you being muted. Then you can kick and scream all you want about political correctness or how the Staff was out to get you - but you'll be doing it with yourself.

Scott,
The point is that just because someone posts something you disagree with, and is obnoxious in the process, that doesn't make him a troll.

And if you claim to be against political correctness, you should have a lot of tolerance for posters who stray from the paradigm of military self-victimization that permeates this forum.

 

[Scott]

Redeye was banned for many reasons, none of which you would be privy to.

Scott,
The point is that just because someone posts something you disagree with, and is obnoxious in the process, that doesn't make him a troll.

And if you claim to be against political correctness, you should have a lot of tolerance for posters who stray from the paradigm of military self-victimization that permeates this forum.

Pounding the same weak point (again, there is a history of trolling with hagan. Just because this doesn't meet YOUR definition does not make Staff the PC police) over and over is getting old.

We have loads of tolerance - you managed a boatload of silly posts tonight.

Oh look:

I'll do nothing of the sort. The Staff member was doing their job as Staff. Just because you disagree, or have an issue with said Staff member, doesn't give you the right to derail a thread that has already suffered that fate enough.

Final warning.

Thanks more making it easy for me, bub. Enjoy listening silence.

 

[Sythen]

Yes indeed, look at Redeye, he was banned!

Redeye was banned after so many warnings it was ridiculous.. He was given far more than most people are. Its not the fact he was Leftist that got him banned.. Its he called everyone who disagreed with him an idiot, continually. Guess you could say he was banned for doing what you're saying the mods are doing.

 

[Scott]

john's been silenced. If someone else on the staff wants to throw him on the ladder they can. I'm done playing with dolts tonight. (see that john? New category. No PCness there)

 

[cupper]

Oy Vay!

 

[Edward Campbell]

There has to be some "vital interest" identified ~ other than Mr. Fowler's misplaced sympathy (maybe coupled with a desire to see Canada do something a bit more "independent" of the US policy) ~ before we contemplate a military mission into landlocked Africa. What, exactly, happens if Al Qaeda, whatever Al Qaeda is these days, establishes a foothold in Mali? can they turn it into another Afghanistan circa 2000? Or will they find it to be a millstone around their neck?

I happen to believe that there IS a (slow burning) crisis in Africa but I also believe that the solutions are, essentially, political and require a new sense, by Africans, of what Africa is and what it needs to be. I also believe that Canada, and other modern, sophisticated countries without too much political baggage (colonialism, heavy handed interventionism, etc) can play a useful role ~ but not right now. I think a new political consensus needs to arise in Africa first - they they can ask for help and we can provide it. "Help" imposed upon them now will, I fear do more harm than good.

What kind of political consensus? One that, first and foremost, backs off the existing mantra that Africa's q19th century colonial borders have any utility or meaning today. Until that happens I think Africa is doomed to have internecine wars over borders and resources.

 

[dapaterson]

Is Mr Fowler sympathetic or seeking revenge?

 

[a_majoor]

Question for those who have done such missions, is it a cultural issue that causes the problems, or systemic issues with the 3rd world (i.e. poverty, lack of education, corruption)?

Yes

 

[jeffb]

I have no experience at all doing missions like this so this is an honest question. Instead of us going there, why can't we just bring them over here? Why not bring a company, battalion, group of officers etc. over to Canada and plop them down in Wainwright or some such place for 6 months? That way we can avoid all the associated risks with foreign deployments (both financial and casualty) while building capacity. Has this ever been tried by anyone?

 

[Good2Golf]

I have no experience at all doing missions like this so this is an honest question. Instead of us going there, why can't we just bring them over here? Why not bring a company, battalion, group of officers etc. over to Canada and plop them down in Wainwright or some such place for 6 months? That way we can avoid all the associated risks with foreign deployments (both financial and casualty) while building capacity. Has this ever been tried by anyone?

Not a bad idea, jeffb! 

Truth be told, we do already on a (very) small scale.  From time to time, Malian junior officers attend the Army Operations Course at the Canadian Army Command and Staff College in Kingston.


Regards
G2G

 

[Journeyman]

Canada routinely trains foreign officers here, developing skills from languages to planning and logistics to combat training. I think that bringing Malians to Canada is a much better option than sending our troops over there, for all of the previously-mentioned reasons of "opportunity costs" for the CF and the Canadian government.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Not a bad idea, jeffb! 

Truth be told, we do already on a (very) small scale.  From time to time, Malian junior officers attend the Army Operations Course at the Canadian Army Command and Staff College in Kingston.


Regards
G2G

They are also affiliated with Directorate of Military Trg & Cooperation (DMTC)

see affiliated country list here:  http://www.forces.gc.ca/admpol/MTCPmembers-eng.html

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Canada routinely trains foreign officers here, developing skills from languages to planning and logistics to combat training. I think that bringing Malians to Canada is a much better option than sending our troops over there, for all of the previously-mentioned reasons of "opportunity costs" for the CF and the Canadian government.

I know that some Malians attend the JCSC in Aldershot every year; however, I had heard rumours that this program was being closed up and that some other DMTC programs were potentially on the chopping block.  Anyone know anything about this?  It would seem counter-intuitive to close down some of our schools we run for foreign students only to send our soldiers over there to conduct training.

 

[OldSolduer]

Canada routinely trains foreign officers here, developing skills from languages to planning and logistics to combat training. I think that bringing Malians to Canada is a much better option than sending our troops over there, for all of the previously-mentioned reasons of "opportunity costs" for the CF and the Canadian government.

Good point but that won't make headlines, nor please those talking heads that demand the government "do something".

 

[Edward Campbell]

Is Mr Fowler sympathetic or seeking revenge?

My guess, and it might be a sympathetic guess because (as some know) I respect Mr. Fowler and his opinions, is that his primary motive is to break what he sees as an unhealthy 'policy proximity' to Washington. He might, also, see a mission like this, where Washington's involvement might be slight, as a chance for Canada to play a leading role. I also think that he does have a great deal of sympathy for Africa's plight. Finally, I think he really does fear Al Qaeda and is not convinced that it has lost its will or ability to attack us ... if it can find a firm base.

 

[Old Sweat]

My guess, and it might be a sympathetic guess because (as some know) I respect Mr. Fowler and his opinions, is that his primary motive is to break what he sees as an unhealthy 'policy proximity' to Washington. He might, also, see a mission like this, where Washington's involvement might be slight, as a chance for Canada to play a leading role. I also think that he does have a great deal of sympathy for Africa's plight. Finally, I think he really does fear Al Qaeda and is not convinced that it has lost its will or ability to attack us ... if it can find a firm base.

And Mr. Fowler was taken hostage in Mali while on a mission for the UN. He may indeed be predisposed to see things through that prism. The other issue is that the elected leadership of the country was ousted by a military coup, which resulted in our training team being withdrawn. That may account for the reluctance of Mr. Baird et al at DFAIT. However, one may think Mr. Mackay was freelancing when he mused about sending more trainers, but another scenario would label his words as a trial balloon. One could also wonder if the government was not trying to cut off Bob Fowler and his ilk by raising the issue prematurely. Hmm, all I have done is confuse myself, but no matter how hard I try, I find if difficult to find a good reason to jump into the mess.