November 2015: Paris Bataclan attack/hostage taking

[Humphrey Bogart]

Re: your first point. YES! After all, what people want is to go home.

This leads to number 2. Let Assad do it. With Russian, Iranian and Hezbollah help. We can watch for leakers and nail them.

I agree with you.  We need to bring Assad back in to the fold again, this is something I've been convinced of well before these events happened.  Assad isn't our friend but his Regime is secular (or at least was before we screwed it all up).  The guys he is fighting are ISIS and Al Qaeda, they are not our friends and we shouldn't be supporting them.  I'm all for an unholy alliance if it means sending those guys to get their 78 virgins. 

Let Assad, along with Russian support concentrate on "La Syrie Utile" and we can focus on working the periphery.  The Kurds and Shiites can decide amongst themselves what to do with the rest of Iraq and Assad and the YPG can come to some sort of power sharing agreement in Northern Syria, with Turkish approval of course.

Western Special Forces should be inserted in to the deserts of Syria and Iraq to wreak havoc on ISIS lines of communication and supply.  No holding ground, just unrestricted raiding and pillaging.  The other parties can mop up what's left.

Edit:

PPCLI Guy does bring up a very good point though:

Here's a counter narrative for you on the whole refugee / migrant front.

1)  By some counts, there are 11M people who have made the decision that having their families barrel bombed by their own government is a bad idea, and have decided to leave (I do not trust those numbers).
2)  Assad reinstated the mandatory service clause for all "fighting aged males" in the Spring, asking people to contribute to the bombing of their own homes and families
3)  The people on the move could have walked 150 miles to Raqqah to join the Caliphate.  Instead, they walked 1500 miles to Rotterdam or 2500 miles to Rouen - and then on to Regina. 

I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

We have radicals here (in the West) now.  They are either home-grown or plants - likely the former, as the latter requires a degree of sophistication so far lacking in ISIL tactics - it is so much easier to turn someone in place, than to train and dispatch them.  Either way, we have mechanisms and institutions charged with protecting us from that threat.  So far, they have done a bloody good job.

I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt as well.

Alternatively, we could close our borders, harden our hearts to the suffering of others, forgo all civil liberties, and be very safe.

That is not the Canada I wish to serve.

In light of this I'm willing the change my opinion that we should seal off the border completely; however, my point #2 still stands. 

 

[daftandbarmy]

I agree with you.  We need to bring Assad back in to the fold again, this is something I've been convinced of well before these events happened.  Assad isn't our friend but his Regime is secular (or at least was before we screwed it all up).  The guys he is fighting are ISIS and Al Qaeda, they are not our friends and we shouldn't be supporting them.  I'm all for an unholy alliance if it means sending those guys to get their 78 virgins. 

Let Assad, along with Russian support concentrate on "La Syrie Utile" and we can focus on working the periphery.  The Kurds and Shiites can decide amongst themselves what to do with the rest of Iraq and Assad and the YPG can come to some sort of power sharing agreement in Northern Syria, with Turkish approval of course.

Western Special Forces should be inserted in to the deserts of Syria and Iraq to wreak havoc on ISIS lines of communication and supply.  No holding ground, just unrestricted raiding and pillaging.  The other parties can mop up what's left.

Edit:

PPCLI Guy does bring up a very good point though:

In light of this I'm willing the change my opinion that we should seal off the border completely; however, my point #2 still stands.

Or we could invite even more of them to the West and form them into an army to liberate the homeland they have abandoned. Call it Op De Opresso Libres.

Just sayin'...

 

[OldTanker]

Watching our Prime Minister respond to the events in Paris last night I was struck that I was seeing more Maggie than Pierre. I appreciate he was responding with scant information and correctly was not making policy decisions based on initial reports, but even so he seemed unable to keep a nervous grin off his face at times. I think he is in for a huge shock when his unicorns turn into dragons. I wish him all the best, he is the Prime Minister of OUR country, but . . .

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

I hope France invokes article 5 of NATO.

Take the bastards out once and for all, boots on the ground, jets in the air, ships off the coast.

If you're going to wage war, do it right.

Is there was ever a time to cash in on goodwill for such a operation, it is now.

So the PM should revisit his decision to pull out of Syria?

 

[dapaterson]

And that is a very valid point. We seem to have a number of "fifth columnists" or "useful fools" that excuse and apologize, and legitimize ISIS

My concern is more with our (potential) overreaction and overreach.  Striking out in pure anger without thinking through what we wish to accomplish does not result in success.  Overbroad legal actions that empower the state without protection for citizens erode our freedoms.

I do not want to be at war with Oceania because we have always been at war with Oceania.  I do not want to be part of the two minute hate.

It may well be that, as the Bard wrote, "Hell is empty.  And all the devils are here".  But we need to also remember Nietzsche: "And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you."

 

[dapaterson]

So the PM should revisit his decision to pull out of Syria?

In fact, the direction was to stop combat and increase training and humanitarian aid.  Which will probably result in more, not fewer, CAF members deployed.

"Work with the Minister of Foreign Affairs to end Canada’s combat mission in Iraq and Syria, refocusing Canada’s efforts in the region on the training of local forces and humanitarian support." http://pm.gc.ca/eng/minister-national-defence-mandate-letter

 

[McG]

Arrests made in Belgium: http://news.nationalpost.com/news/arrests-made-in-belgium-in-connection-to-vehicle-spotted-near-site-of-paris-attacks-justice-minister-says

In fact, the direction was to stop combat and increase training and humanitarian aid.  Which will probably result in more, not fewer, CAF members deployed.

"Work with the Minister of Foreign Affairs to end Canada’s combat mission in Iraq and Syria, refocusing Canada’s efforts in the region on the training of local forces and humanitarian support." http://pm.gc.ca/eng/minister-national-defence-mandate-letter

Sounds right.  NTM-A was a huge footprint to build an Afghan army.  We could see more of the same in Iraq.

 

[Kirkhill]

3 thoughts

1 re ISIL as  a state - Israel is not universally recognized and yet is treated as such

2 re terrorism - terrorism is akin to Al Capone in Chicago,  biker wars and mediaeval brigands extorting blackmail  - it is a state of lawlessness that can only be combatted by constant, local, vigorous, and occasionally violent policing.  I feel no sympathy for dandelions.

3 re the GoC response - no matter what the youngster decides just imagine how much worse the response would have been if Harper's fascists had been in charge.
...

 

[vonGarvin]

3 thoughts

1 re ISIL as  a state - Israel is not universally recognized and yet is treated as such

2 re terrorism - terrorism is akin to Al Capone in Chicago,  biker wars and mediaeval brigands extorting blackmail  - it is a state of lawlessness that can only be combatted by constant, local, vigorous, and occasionally violent policing.  I feel no sympathy for dandelions.

3 re the GoC response - no matter what the youngster decides just imagine how much worse the response would have been if Harper's fascists had been in charge.
...

Fascists?  Really?

:

 

[dapaterson]

Fascists?  Really?

:

Methinks there was a tongue firmly in cheek there.

 

[Stoker]

At least one of the attackers was a refugee that came through Greece.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34823938

 

[Tuan]

I hope France invokes article 5 of NATO.

Take the bastards out once and for all, boots on the ground, jets in the air, ships off the coast.

If you're going to wage war, do it right.

Is there was ever a time to cash in on goodwill for such a operation, it is now.

That means you believe in the concept that “terrorism/violence can only be neutralized by terrorism/violence” – a classic ‘eye for eye, tooth for tooth’ discourse that would eventually have the whole world blind and toothless.

Let me also quote Martin Luther King  Jr. " Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."

 

[PuckChaser]

Give one of those dudes with an explosive belt a hug. See how it works out. Martin Luther King Jr was talking about a completely different era and different socio-economic issues internal to one country.

 

[Jarnhamar]

But we need to also remember Nietzsche: "And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you."

I've always wondered that this meant.

At least one of the attackers was a refugee that came through Greece.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34823938

The thing is every single attacker could be a "refugee" but we're still going to take on 25'000 of them. Anything less would cause the new government lose face and I suspect that superceeds all of our security concerns. 

 

[Tuan]

The thing is every single attacker could be a "refugee" but we're still going to take on 25'000 of them. Anything less would cause the new government lose face and I suspect that superceeds all of our security concerns.

My biggest worry is these attacks were launched by some fake "refugees" and we begin to put limits on genuine ones.

 

[George Wallace]

At least one of the attackers was a refugee that came through Greece.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34823938

It is 'suspected' that one of the attackers was a refugee that came through Greece.  In this report, they found a passport near the body of one of two suicide bombers.  Whether the passport was his, or stolen, has yet to be positively determined.  It will take forensic identification to match the fingerprinting that was done with refugees entering the EU. 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/14/syrian-greece-refugee-paris-attacks-killers?CMP=share_btn_fb

Also mentioned in that article was that German Polizei had intercepted a man with a car load of automatic weapons:

In southern Germany, the Bavarian state premier, Horst Seehofer, said there was “reason to believe” that a man arrested last week during a routine motorway check with “many machine guns, revolvers and explosives” in his car might “possibly be linked” to the attacks.

 

[Stoker]

My biggest worry is these attacks were launched by some fake "refugees" and we begin to put limits on genuine ones.

Of course its not the refugees, the problem is that its hard to tell between the legit ones and the ones mixed in by ISIS. Therefore in my opinion we can't take the chance.

 

[VinceW]

The PM has to change his yellow belly move to remove our CF-18's,bombing them isn't slowing ISIS down much but they represent the most that we can do at the moment

 

[Haggis]

Much sabre rattling will be done by the west.  Motions condemning ISIS will be passed in parliaments and legislatures.  Resolutions will be tabled at the United Nations.

Soon, there will be peace marches and solidarity rallies in France and around the world (and we should pray that the fanatics don't target those).

None of this matters to ISIS. Their brand of fanaticism is pure, their devotion to that twisted interpretation of Islam is absolute.  Their vision, mission and goals are clear.  Kill the non-believer wherever he may be.  Cleanse the world of the kuffar and embrace the true Islam - or die. They are barbaric, horrific, cruel and terrifyingly successful to date.  Resurrecting medieval executions (burning, beheading etc.) was a masterstroke which served to shock the west into horror.  That horror will only be magnified once a western soldier (Five Eyes) is captured and put to death, surely in a most shocking, dramatic and public manner. 

Their manipulation of the media is absolute.  Just watch the talking heads on CNN who began braying last night that ISIS cannot and will not be defeated.  Heck, I was ready to buy my daughter a burkha!  Their use of mainstream and social media to push their agenda of subservience through horror has shocked the west into going far beyond reasonableness to not offend even secular Muslims or be seen to be fighting against Islam.

The French president has promised a "pitiless war".  Some here have called for the invocation of Article V of the NATO charter.  Neither, in my opinion, will happen in a meaningful way which leads to a strategic and political victory over ISIS.  The west lacks the stomach for such a fight.

 

[PuckChaser]

Of course its not the refugees, the problem is that its hard to tell between the legit ones and the ones mixed in by ISIS. Therefore in my opinion we can't take the chance.

We can prioritize women and children, and full families travelling together. You're never going to reduce the chance to 0, but by looking for indicators, we can still help these people out and keep us safe.