North Korea (Superthread)

[57Chevy]

It has probably been said before but after reading ERs article on preceeding page,
China should just go ahead and invade North Korea,
seize their military assets etc, and burn piles of uniforms.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Although they are often an annoyance, the North Koreans are, broadly and generally, of value to China.

They keep the US (and Japan) off balance ~ something that serves China's strategic interests and they tie down US military resources that might, otherwise, be available elsewhere; and they force the US to pay for those military forces, something it really cannot afford.

But the Koreans are not always compliant clients.

I remain fully convinced that China can and will reunify Korea, under a democratic South Korean led government, as soon as the US agrees to withdraw all its forces from the Korean Peninsula.

 

[cupper]

I remain fully convinced that China can and will reunify Korea, under a democratic South Korean led government, as soon as the US agrees to withdraw all its forces from the Korean Peninsula.

I suspect that Taiwan would be part of that proposal as well, which would make it a non-starter from the US point of view.

 

[a_majoor]

If the DPRK collapses the Chinese will try to manipulate the situation to their advantage, but there will be lots of other factors in play as well. This is probably the best single article that I have read on the subject:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2006/10/when-north-korea-falls/305228/

 

[Edward Campbell]

I suspect that Taiwan would be part of that proposal as well, which would make it a non-starter from the US point of view.

Taiwan and Korea are distinctly different in the Chinese strategic calculus: Korea is a pawn, it can be sacrificed for advantage; Taiwan is the king on the board ~ it cannot be lost.  There may be a dozen people in all of China who care what America thinks about Taiwan - the other 1.345 billion are convinced that Taiwan is a province of China and its fate is an exclusively internal Chinese matter, one in which America has no voice.

China will not fight over Korea but it will over Taiwan. No Chinese government, including this totalitarian one, could survive the surrender of Taiwan.

 

[cupper]

No Chinese government, including this totalitarian one, could survive the surrender of Taiwan.

Not sure but you may have misunderstood my comment. My bad for not making my point clearer.  :nod:

I was suggesting that China would allow the Korean Peninsula to come under one democratic government in return for Taiwan coming back under Mainland rule.

It's pretty clear that the Government in Beijing would never give up any claim on Taiwan.

 

[cupper]

Google releases detailed map of North Korea, gulags and all

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/01/28/google-releases-detailed-map-of-north-korea-gulags-and-all/?hpid=z3

Until Tuesday, North Korea appeared on Google Maps as a near-total white space — no roads, no train lines, no parks and no restaurants. The only thing labeled was the capital city, Pyongyang.

This all changed when Google, on Tuesday, rolled out a detailed map of one of the world’s most secretive states. The new map labels everything from Pyongyang’s subway stops to the country’s several city-sized gulags, as well as its monuments, hotels, hospitals and department stores.

According to a Google blog post, the maps were created by a group of volunteer “citizen cartographers,” through an interface known as Google Map Maker. That program — much like Wikipedia — allows users to submit their own data, which is then fact-checked by other users, and sometimes altered many times over. Similar processes were used in other once-unmapped countries like Afghanistan and Burma.

In the case of North Korea, those volunteers worked from outside of the country, beginning from 2009. They used information that was already public, compiling details from existing analog maps, satellite images, or other Web-based materials. Much of the information was already available on the Internet, said Hwang Min-woo, 28, a volunteer mapmaker from Seoul who worked for two years on the project.

North Korea was the last country virtually unmapped by Google, but other — even more detailed — maps of the North existed before this. Most notable is a map created by Curtis Melvin, who runs the North Korea Economy Watch blog and spent years identifying thousands of landmarks in the North: tombs, textile factories, film studios, even rumored spy training locations. Melvin’s map is available as a downloadable Google Earth file.

Google’s map is important, though, because it is so readily accessible.  The map is unlikely to have an immediate influence in the North, where Internet use is restricted to all but a handful of elites. But it could prove beneficial for outsider analysts and scholars, providing an easy-to-access record about North Korea’s provinces, roads, landmarks, as well as hints about its many unseen horrors.

In the country’s northeast, for instance, Google has labeled what it calls the “Hwasong Gulag.” One street, called Gulag 16 Road, cuts through it. And at the end of Gulag 16 Road is a train station. Beyond that, little else around the gulag is marked.

The map’s publication comes just weeks after the visit to North Korea of Google Executive Chairman Eric Schmidt, who toured the country in a series of highly staged encounters that included a stop at a computer library, which Schmidt’s daughter later described in a blog post as the “e-Potemkin Village.” Schmidt’s visit was unrelated to the map roll-out, a Google spokesman said.

Google, in its blog post about the new North Korea map, acknowledged that the information is “not perfect.”

“We encourage people from around the world to continue helping us improve the quality of these maps for everyone” with the map-making program, Google said.

Melvin quickly spotted a mistake in Google’s version.

Google’s map shows a golf course on Yanggak Island, on a river that curves through Pyongyang.

But Melvin, citing recent photographs from tourists, said the golf course no longer exists.

Check here for side by side comparisons of Google Maps before and after the updates.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/world/Google-unveils-detailed-map-of-North-Korea/index.html?hpid=z3

 

[daftandbarmy]

There are disturbing reports in the media about continued famine, starvationsand even cannibalism in North Korea. Perhaps it is reminiscent of the great Chinese famine of 1958-62 in which tens of millions died. It is, almost certainly, caused by the same socialist errors: forced collectivization which everyone with an IQ above absolute zero knows is stupid, and the sort of bureaucratic fear that is endemic in totalitarian states.

More here:

North Koreans eating their own kids


http://www.newser.com/story/161746/north-koreans-eating-their-own-kids-reports.html

 

[OldSolduer]

More here:

North Koreans eating their own kids


http://www.newser.com/story/161746/north-koreans-eating-their-own-kids-reports.html

If this is true it's truly horrific. I cannot put in to words the revulsion I feel after reading that. Lets hope it's not true but I have a feeling it may be.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Cannibalism, including killing and eating one's own children, is a well documented side effect of government induced famines.

See: Tombstone The Great Chinese Famine 1958-1962, Yang Jisheng, (translated by Stacey Mosher and Guo Jian), New York 2008; and The Great Famine in China, 1958-1962 A Documentary History Zhou Xun (Editor), New Haven, CT, 2012

 

[Pandora114]

Cannibalism, including killing and eating one's own children, is a well documented side effect of government induced famines.

See: Tombstone The Great Chinese Famine 1958-1962, Yang Jisheng, (translated by Stacey Mosher and Guo Jian), New York 2008; and The Great Famine in China, 1958-1962 A Documentary History Zhou Xun (Editor), New Haven, CT, 2012

and Here:  http://www.paulbogdanor.com/left/cannibalism.pdf

Happened in Stalin's Russia as well.

 

[OldSolduer]

and Here:  http://www.paulbogdanor.com/left/cannibalism.pdf

Happened in Stalin's Russia as well.

I did not know that. One more thing to look into.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Cannibalism is not the great sin or, even, a great sin. The great sin is incompetence and the cowardly dishonesty that allows famines to continue when collectivization is clearly, obviously and always the wrong answer to agricultural productivity.

But communists are nothing but socialists in a hurry and socialist are always economic idiots.

 

[57Chevy]

This is probably the best single article that I have read on the subject:
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2006/10/when-north-korea-falls/305228/

Agreed 100%. Change the dates and a few names, the article seems pretty well current
Not much has changed.
A must read.

This article from Human Right Watch and shared
with provisions of The Copyright Act outlines how
Japan should take the initiative to call for the establishment of a Commission of Inquiry at this
upcoming 22nd session of the UN Human Rights Council.

The Central Role of Japan in Addressing Human Rights Abuses in North Korea
January 21, 2013
Letter to Japanese Prime Minster Shinzo Abe

excerpt:
...on January 14, 2013, the UN High Commissioner on Human Rights, Navanethem Pillay, called for urgent attention to human rights abuses in North Korea which she characterized as having “no parallel anywhere else in the world.” She added that the time has come for “a full-fledged international inquiry.”
...

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Cannibalism is not the great sin or, even, a great sin. The great sin is incompetence and the cowardly dishonesty that allows famines to continue when collectivization is clearly, obviously and always the wrong answer to agricultural productivity.

But communists are nothing but socialists in a hurry and socialist are always economic idiots.

When a communist says: “We regret the excesses committed by officials in the name of program XXXXXX” You know lots and lots of people have died and many other suffered to a point where it can no longer be hidden.. 

 

[Edward Campbell]

Reports are coming out now (2230 Hrs EST 12:30 PM in Korea) that North Korea conducted a nuclear test today.

 

[Edward Campbell]

And here is the official DPRK news announcement.
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Anyone else notice that all official announcements, Korean, American, Chinese, Russian or Canadian, sound rather alike? Maybe there's one company, probably in Mumbai, that writes them all on an "outsourced" contract.

 

[Shinobi]

Surprised this isn't getting more attention.

 

[Journeyman]

Surprised this isn't getting more attention.

What more attention were you hoping for?  The news services, from BBC to al Jazeera, are all carrying it.  The assorted "think tanks" I follow are all discussing it.  It's here at Milnet.ca... 

      ???

 

[Edward Campbell]

What more attention were you hoping for?  The news services, from BBC to al Jazeera, are all carrying it.  The assorted "think tanks" I follow are all discussing it.  It's here at Milnet.ca... 

      ???

And, of course, the United Nations Security Council has condemned the DPRK tests and US President Obama (same link) has called for "swift and credible action," so everything must be all right ... no?

It reminds me of an old, old story about a farmer who, one Sunday during the harvest, could not go to church, but his wife went and when she got home the always attentive farmer said to her, "What did the minister preach on?" "Sin," she replied. "What did he say?" asked the farmer. "He's against it," she answered. If the UNSC and President Obama are against it what more needs to be said?