New TT vest for the CF???

[Matt_Fisher]

SO he's expecting troops to fall back to LAV's to rebomb mags in the middle of a firefight? Wow.... that's a unique tactic...

I guess you never heard a radio interview done a year ago with the MND where he essentially stated that was how troops should be operating.

 

[KevinB]

common sense AINT so common...

 

[LordOsborne]

I guess you never heard a radio interview done a year ago with the MND where he essentially stated that was how troops should be operating.

Was that the same interview where he mistakenly said that we had 20 round magazines?  :
I'd be interested in seeing this video/presentation as well. I know I won't be going overseas in the near future because it will take some time to get fully trade qualified, but I made it my mission in life to learn all I can and I want to put these lessons into practise. I want to be that "enlightened platoon commander" that scares away the Kaf-asaurus.

 

[RickG]

All:

I believe that we can all agree that we need to move to modular tactical vest system, as what we currently have in service does NOT/NOT fit all the roles everyone fills these days, and weapons/ammo/other equipment we must carry.

So, what seems to be the general consensus on what we should be using?  A modular tactical vest (e.g. TT Modular Tac Vest) worn over existing body armour, (link below)
http://www.oneshottactical.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=oneshot&Product_Code=CR-TT-23024&Category_Code=CR-TT

as compared to a combined ballistic/tactical vest, like Diamondback Tactical's BattleLab Interceptor or Predator ballistic vests? (link below)
http://www.diamondbacktactical.com/Ballistic-Vest--C31.aspx

Do we all agree that we will all be wearing some form of body armour, all of the time?  Can anyone think of a scenario where we would forego wearing of body armour of some sort?  In my mind, not likely...

Can we get CPGear or any other Canadian company who has the rights to manufacture using CADPAT TW and AR to make some prototypes for the CF powers-that-be??  Who/what DND organization has to be pushed/prodded with a very sharp stick to quickly get new and realistic modular Tac vests or combined ballistic/tac vests into the system, and get us caught up to the obvious needs of the 21st century?!?

Best Regards,

Rick, in Ottawa

 

[KevinB]

The people to burn at the stake (or prod) is CTS (Clothe the Soldier) - and DLR (Director of Land Requirement).

Quite frankly while I agree with a modular vest is the wat to go -- I dont think that only one vest system will work.

Some jobs in the CF - (in my humble opinion) will require troops not wearing armour.
  Secondly while I prefer an intergrated vest system some will require a seperater system - since they wont be able to wear the vest in some situations when they need to be wearing armour.

Vehicle Borne troops will require a different system than Light/Airborne forces -- and combat soldiers have different needs from non combat personnel (although both need to be combat capable.)

Eagle and Paraclete make a much better integrated armour system than DiamondBack Tactical.


I would suggest that the CF go with a system that allows the members to chose several systems based on the needs (real or percieved) of the service member.
  Issue the soft armour and the plates -- and have several choices that the member can use for a armour holder and or vest system...
 

 

[RickG]

I would suggest that the CF go with a system that allows the members to chose several systems based on the needs (real or percieved) of the service member.
  Issue the soft armour and the plates -- and have several choices that the member can use for a armour holder and or vest system...

Do you honestly think the CF would provide for and actually allow us to make choices?  Great idea, however, the Army has barely been able to fit out its troops in CADPAT shirts and pants in Canada, much less all the other accountrements, such as a CADPAT TW parka orTW rain gear!!  I know the troops in theatre have received the CADPAT AR rain gear, as I saw it being worn by all the "garritroopers" in KAF wearing it last fall.  Didn't help me any, as I was operating in civvies, and had to provide my own. (and no/no civvie clothing/kit allowance, either!!)

Here's a variation on your suggestion:  A sliding scale of allowances, somehow based on one's perceived role, in order to allow individuals to purchase their own preferred modular "rig", so long as it's available in CADPAT TW and AR, (as directed for the mission) and compatible with issue body armour. (Or OD or Tan or Black, depending on whether or not you operate in uniform.)

That ought to get a few folks talkin'...

Rick, in Ottawa,

 

[PhilB]

I think that we should adopt a combination of the American and Brit systems. Have several base rig choices, all in a standard OD colour. There could be a MAV esque chest rig, a full modular vest, a modular set up similar to webbing for dismounted patrolling and for certain, units a full releasable armour carrier i.e. Eagle CIRAS. The scale of issue on base rigs would depend on the unit and its role. There could be a certain set of base rigs standard issue varying based on trade, and then certain rigs held within units.

From there would be a varied scale of issue on pouches depending on role. Rifleman get set of pouches X, C9 gunners Y, medics Z. The pouches would be held by respective unit/school RQ's and issued out to correspond with the weapons system a troop was carrying. In theater you could add specific mission related pouches as needed. Pouches could be produced in Cadpat TW, with a specific amount being produced in AR and issued when deploying.

I think a set set up like this would be both cost effective and allow users many options in setting up their kit.

 

[LordOsborne]

From there would be a varied scale of issue on pouches depending on role. Rifleman get set of pouches X, C9 gunners Y, medics Z. The pouches would be held by respective unit/school RQ's and issued out to correspond with the weapons system a troop was carrying. In theater you could add specific mission related pouches as needed. Pouches could be produced in Cadpat TW, with a specific amount being produced in AR and issued when deploying.

I think a set set up like this would be both cost effective and allow users many options in setting up their kit.

Instead of handing out a set number of pouches based on role, why not just issue all pouch types to all entitled soldiers? Roles can change fairly quickly and I think it might save a step and some time if troops didn't have to go to their RQ each time their situation or assignment changes. As I understand it, that's the way it's done in the US Army. Also, this allows soldiers to be more flexible in that they can pick and choose from a pool of pouches rather than a set number and type issued from RQ. I can see the merit of a limited issue system, such as less likelihood of pouch loss, but I think allowing soldiers to be as flexible as possible with their load bearing pouches is preferable.

My 0.02
Pat

 

[PhilB]

Someone can correct, but I'm pretty sure the states issues out pouch sets. The get issued a base set that are common i.e. IFAK and then draw role specific pouches. It would be great to issue everyone every pouch but for our system I think it comes down to cost.

 

[LordOsborne]

Phil, I'm sure you're correct on the cost part. Funny though, how we hear that because we've got a small army, it's easy for us to recieve the best kit. From rough figures I read in the news, army equipment and kit is probably the cheapest of the three armed servies (contrasting a ~300 Million dollar C-17 or a multi-million dollar Frigate to a ~1 million dollar tank or a few million in textile purchases for LBVs and uniforms) so logically our stuff should be the easiest to swallow from a financial standpoint. It's a shame that the real thing doesn't seem to work that way.

I assumed that the US Army/ Marine Corps issued their troops all the pouches under the sun after reading "Battle Rattle" on page 8:

The U.S. Army learned from the Marine Corps' first experience with MOLLE. It not only replaced the ball-and-socket frame with a fixed waist belt, but also put together training teams to teach small-unit leaders how to properly configure and use MOLLE. During the initial Marine Corps' experiments, young Marines were confused with the large bag of MOLLE pouches components; the army provided a similar bag of new gear to soldiers, but also provided instructors to help them put it all together properly.

(Hans Halberstadt, Zenith Press, 2006)

 

[Farmboy]

You figure for $2000 (tax and shipping not included ) you can easily outfit each soldier with around 10 - 14 pouches and two MOLLE platforms.

Wonder what they have spent per soldier to have the TV made?

Issue the whole package to the soldier and have them responsible for it.  No point making extra work everytime a soldier needs a different pouch.

 

[westie47]

Easy guys, you don't want to give them too many good ideas, they might go into brain overload!!!!!

Hey, add this to the mix: a guy gets everything in TW AND AR!!!!! Mind blowing, I know! Damn forward thinkers.

 

[chrisf]

Why bother to issue everybody everything in TW and AR? Make AR pouches same scale of issue as AR combats. You get the AR combats, you get the AR load bearing gear.

 

[KevinB]

Ideally everyone should also have AR cbt's

  I remember a certain general promising in Petawawa that we would have a Bde's worth of of desert gear given what we learned (that was 1994)

 

[TheHead]

And where might we find the said video from MJP?

I brought up the "modular tacvest" situation and referred to the 10 mag loadout during a question and answer period with the TF0307 CO and RSM.  I am not one to stir up any poo poo, but the response given to the whole squadron was that 5 mags are enough, there are LAV3s in the background that the troops can go and reload in.  I am positive he saw my jaw drop and hit the ground!!! He made reference to videos that we've seen of soldiers shooting aimlessly during firefights and wasting ammo, referrring to Vietnam techniques.  The RSM referred to the overseas situation as the wild west and that all the mixed kit was unprofessional and undisciplined.  He even went as far as comparing the old 64 pattern webbing with the new tacvest suggesting that if I had worn the latter, then I would be appreciating the tacvest alot more!!

That is first hand info and I am sorry to say, it scares me.

Ohhhh this stuff makes me cringe.  5 Mags are enough?  Ask your RSM and CO how many firefights in Panjawai or Helmand they have been in :  During one fight we had, we couldn't get the LAVs up to the dismounts (or the dismounts back to the LAVS due to heavy machine gun fire and being pinned down) for up to a 30 minutes and even when we had 3 dead and countless others wounded.   

Referring to Vietnam techniques is such a cop out.  Your RSM and CO are going to feel pretty bad about themselves when they have men pinned down with no Ammo left. 

 

[Bzzliteyr]

Go read the topic with the "drop leg setup".. it'll be an eye opener if you get the whole AAR from PatrickO...