New Ontario Government 2018

[blacktriangle]

Sorry, I was speaking directly to what will happen if they aren't convicted in court. I stand behind my comment still.

I'm betting this will get squashed somehow, and they will move in next door to you with health care and driving privileges intact. They will probably get some form of stipend, and free education.

Anyone want to bet?

Anyways, good on the Ontario government for trying to do what they can. Now awaiting the outcry over human rights.

 

[mariomike]

CP24
"It's not clear how the proposed Bill will work if the alleged offenders are not convicted of any crimes in court."

Global News clarified the proposed Bill will only apply to convicted  terrorists.
https://globalnews.ca/news/4575780/ontario-bill-strip-returning-terrorist-benefits/

 

[Jarnhamar]

Carbon tax is such a bullshit thing. It's just a slush fund for the Liberal government.

TORONTO — Ontario Premier Doug Ford has come out swinging against Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s plans for carbon tax rebates.

Trudeau announced details of the plan Tuesday, saying provinces that have not implemented their own carbon taxation system will have one imposed on them by the federal government.

https://thenectarine.ca/business/doug-ford-slams-trudeau-and-federal-carbon-tax-plan/

 

[Jarnhamar]

Seems like a better plan than raising minimum wage.

The Ford government is introducing a new tax credit that will exempt minimum wage earners from provincial exempt tax and says its cost-cutting measures have reduced the 2018 deficit to $14.5 billion.

Finance Minister Vic Fideli's first fall economic statement tabled Thursday afternoon also includes new expanded hours for booze sales in Ontario and a new loophole exempting all new rental housing from rent controls starting tomorrow.

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The signature move in the document is a new Low-income Families and Individuals Credit that will save a minimum wage earner up to $850 per year and minimum wage-earning families up to $1,700 per year.

This is still less than low-wage workers would have taken home if the Ford government continued with a planned increase in the minimum wage from $14 to $15 per hour, which was set to take effect in January before it was cancelled.

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ford-gov-t-says-deficit-reduced-to-14-5b-with-new-suite-of-cost-cutting-measures-1.4178057?fbclid=IwAR2F1m9j4TGQXO8Duo2BNXGiOVN4kBGLHu1F42Wtk31TFxUUBTFwGJ6uoWs

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Seems like a better plan than raising minimum wage.



https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ford-gov-t-says-deficit-reduced-to-14-5b-with-new-suite-of-cost-cutting-measures-1.4178057?fbclid=IwAR2F1m9j4TGQXO8Duo2BNXGiOVN4kBGLHu1F42Wtk31TFxUUBTFwGJ6uoWs

If they went to the $15/ hr, their taxes would go up and they'd likely see less money in their pocket.

The liberals didn't do this to help the poor, they did it to collect more taxes.

Ford's decision cuts through the bullshit and leaves the money with the taxpayer.

There's going to be a lot of tough decisions as the Conservatives try to dig out Ontario from under the liberal debt. Lot's of people aren't going to like the belt tightening. I'd rather bite the bullet and tackle the problems now though, than kick the can down the road until the socialists take over again to add to what they've already done.

Funny I don't hear anyone that works for a living and pays taxes to support all those that won't, complaining about the plans.

 

[Loachman]

The liberals didn't do this to help the poor, they did it to collect more taxes votes.

You display more kindness than they deserve ...

 

[Remius]

Figured this might a be a good place to post this.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-premier-doug-ford-prime-minister-justin-trudeau-1.5375495

Politics makes for interesting bedfellows.

 

[OceanBonfire]

For the first time in 24 years all four major teachers unions in Ontario are on strike the same day, shutting the province’s public education system and leaving more than two million school children out of class.

The unions, representing nearly 200,000 teachers and education workers, are calling on the government to back down on cuts to education.

...

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/provincewide-strike-sees-two-million-ont-schoolchildren-out-of-class-1.4822131

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-teachers-provincewide-strike-1.5470980

https://globalnews.ca/news/6575272/ontario-wide-teachers-strike/

 

[observor 69]

You'd think that they were Ontario school teachers.  op:
[/quote

"Ford's government announced last spring it would increase average high school class sizes from 22 to 28 and require students to take four e-learning courses to graduate.

Lecce has since offered to instead increase average high school class sizes to 25 and require two online learning courses, but the unions have been pressing for no class size increases and for no mandatory e-learning courses."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-teachers-provincewide-strike-1.5470980

 

[BeyondTheNow]

You'd think that they were Ontario school teachers.  op:

"Ford's government announced last spring it would increase average high school class sizes from 22 to 28 and require students to take four e-learning courses to graduate.

Lecce has since offered to instead increase average high school class sizes to 25 and require two online learning courses, but the unions have been pressing for no class size increases and for no mandatory e-learning courses."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-teachers-provincewide-strike-1.5470980

What is missing almost entirely from mainstream media and all the resentment against the teachers is that the e-learning portion, regardless of how many in total (2 or 4) is flat-out not working.

I know of at least 8 instances personally, in multiple school boards, where students were unable to register for the required e-learning classes, as they were rendered “full.” (And no, they didn’t miss registration periods.) In addition, 4 of which needed these courses to graduate successfully. Because of this, alternate post-secondary majors were no longer an option due to the missing prerequisite, and/or the students are having to wait and reapply next year.

My brother is a high-school teacher in one of Ottawa’s top-rated high-schools. His wife is an elementary school teacher, also in Ottawa. The personal experiences and concerns surrounding the teacher’s positions in all of this is staggering. Are these strikes a nuisance and inconvenient? Absolutely. (I’m fortunate in that my current posting is highly accommodating wrt arrangements needed for my son. I feel sorry for those many families which aren’t so lucky.) But the teacher’s positions are founded, and before talks broke down earlier, they were ready to settle on 3 of the 4 main issues surrounding the strike. The Ford government refused to budge on the 4th and the teachers wouldn’t either. I don’t blame them.

The next major move currently still in the rumour mill is week-long strikes. This is all on the Ford government, as far as I’m concerned. The majority of society believe teachers have it made in this province. That is hardly the case.

 

[Journeyman]

So if students miss a whole bunch of school and everyone still graduates, would people be amiss in believing that there is significant fluff in the curriculum and that maybe teachers don't deserve more?   

Staff edit: hit modify instead of quote

 

[BeyondTheNow]

So if students miss a whole bunch of school and everyone still graduates, would people be amiss in believing that there is significant fluff in the curriculum and that maybe teachers don't deserve more?   

Moot comment. “Everyone” won’t still graduate. End of story. 

 

[Journeyman]

Moot comment. “Everyone” won’t still graduate. End of story.

Yes, I understand that some people fail regardless (Most people in the military have a vague understanding of the instructional business).  I also understand that family connections to the issue may cause a dismissive, but unwarranted, response.

The potential perception remains nonetheless.

 

[Brad Sallows]

>The majority of society believe teachers have it made in this province. That is hardly the case.

In what way(s) do they not have it made?  Pay?  Pension?  Other benefits?  Time off?  Provisions for sickness?  Difficulty acquiring credential?

 

[BeyondTheNow]

Yes, I understand that some people fail regardless (Most people in the military have a vague understanding of the instructional business).  I also understand that family connections to the issue may cause a dismissive, but unwarranted, response.

The potential perception remains nonetheless.

With all due respect, JM, while you retain a breadth of knowledge on several subjects, and I’ve always appreciated when you’ve chosen to share your knowledge in a straightforward and clear manner without including condescension and thinly-veiled trolling, I don’t think it appropriate for you to be casting judgement on what is and isn’t a “warranted” response. The sheer fact that you did another one of your unnecessary and blatant drive-bys is what, in part, lead to my post in the first place.

Furthermore, asserting that I’ve based my opinions on familial connections to the profession is grossly inaccurate. My sole point in bringing that fact forward was to show that I’m glad I’m fortunate to have access to a view-point from people directly tied to the issues at hand, rather than solely depending on (incomplete and/or unbalanced) aspects seemingly dominating the media at the moment. I don’t necessarily agree with all tactics being used by the side of the teachers, but I am on their side. I wouldn’t want their job.

 

[BeyondTheNow]

>The majority of society believe teachers have it made in this province. That is hardly the case.

In what way(s) do they not have it made?  Pay?  Pension?  Other benefits?  Time off?  Provisions for sickness?  Difficulty acquiring credential?

Zeros in a pay cheque and vacation time aren’t enough to compensate for physical & verbal abuse on part of students, zero recourse and/or protection when students act out, destroy the class room, disrupt other students, fail to adhere to simple rules and guidelines, etc.

More and more numbers point to teachers working in poorer conditions, lacking resources and supplies for the students and sometimes basics for themselves. Steadily increasing percentages point to a distinct rise and correlation between numbers of students from lower socio-economic backgrounds and higher percentages of special-needs students; meaning attention is being taken away from the majority of the class to donate extra time to those struggling.

Elevated ESL student numbers (not necessarily a negative aspect for the individual) puts teachers in positions of great difficulty when clear communication and understanding is required, not only between teacher and student, but also teachers and parents/guardians.

Not all teachers are fortunate enough to work in what can be classed as ‘good’ schools. And even if they are, it doesn’t exclude them from risk. (My son’s teacher has been out for over 6 weeks due to a concussion sustain from an incident in the classroom. A grade 4 classroom. And he goes to a “good” school.)

And if smaller class sizes and/or more TAs wasn’t such an issue, then private schools wouldn’t be using those features specifically as selling points...edit to add: which they’ve been boasting long, long before current class sizes became issues with this government, and prior to that one also.

It’s true that work-load becomes more manageable once a teacher has some time in and lessons are prepped well ahead of time, so that’s a plus. But it’s largely a myth that all teachers just get to relax during holidays and summer breaks.

Just to play devil’s advocate, there are some people on the outside of CAF who think we have it very good. Pensions, good salaries, paid vacation, stability (RegF) etc etc. I think it’s fair to say that while our job has a few niceties, people on the outside are missing a large chunk of the picture.

 

[brihard]

So if students miss a whole bunch of school and everyone still graduates, would people be amiss in believing that there is significant fluff in the curriculum and that maybe teachers don't deserve more?   

Staff edit: hit modify instead of quote

They aren’t asking for ‘more’ of anything, barring a pay adjustment for inflation. They want class sizes to not increase dramatically, e-learning to not substitute for other courses, and teacher jobs to not be eliminated through consequential attrition. And they’re already out more than 2% in lost pay due to strikes, so a ‘greed’ argument wouldn’t stand up to scrutiny. The strikes are costing them money.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Pay and vacation time are compensation for something.  I don't know very many people who have jobs that have no stressors.  The question to answer isn't whether teachers have it made by their own standards, but whether they have it made compared to most occupations.

I assume that the situational differences aren't too large between provinces, because a common point of negotiation is for the provincial unions to demand whatever other provinces have.

Disciplinary issues in some jurisdictions are partly a self-inflicted wound (maybe not in ON).  Check the contracts.  If the unions are being strict with rules that restrict teachers from intervening, then they should ask for those to be taken out of the contracts.  If disruptive students are in classrooms, it's unfair to lay that at the feet of the classroom teachers but it is fair to lay that at the feet of the educational theorists and social scientists.  If parents are uncooperative, that's a leadership issue, not a contract issue.

"Poorer conditions" needs qualification.  Older schools are rubbled, re-purposed, or sold off where school age populations fall, and newer ones built where school age populations increase.  In between, schools are refurbished or replaced.  Generally the physical quality of schools and amenities is increasing over time.

If teachers are unable to relax during holidays and summer breaks, what is the identifiable cause: poor time management, or they volunteered to teach summer school or tutor?

To truly play devil's advocate, imagine what it's like for people who have been receiving pay raises below inflation or zero since the 2008 recession (at which point in time some received 5 to 10 percent absolute cuts), who max out at 3 or 4 weeks of vacation, whose occupations have their own distinct and often fatal hazards, who are below or not much above the Canadian salary median, whose pensions (if any) are not backed by any government, and who will probably not only be unable to retire before 65, let alone 60, but will need to keep working in some capacity beyond that age.

 

[brihard]

To truly play devil's advocate, imagine what it's like for people who have been receiving pay raises below inflation or zero since the 2008 recession (at which point in time some received 5 to 10 percent absolute cuts), who max out at 3 or 4 weeks of vacation, whose occupations have their own distinct and often fatal hazards, who are below or not much above the Canadian salary median, whose pensions (if any) are not backed by any government, and who will probably not only be unable to retire before 65, let alone 60, but will need to keep working in some capacity beyond that age.

None of which is particularly relevant to the situation of the teachers. The things you describe are matters for those workers to hash out with their own employers. They may want to consider unionizing if they have been unable to protect their rights and employment conditions without them.

If we stick purely to the teachers, let's look at the actual things in contention:
- Class sizes. What is the government's justification for seeking to increase class sizes? Are facts on the teachers' side when they stress that increased class sizes will make it harder for them to teach their students? What would be the impact of a more than 25% increase in class sizes?

- E-Learning. Is the government prepared to assert against many accounts to the contrary that the shift to e-learning will not disadvantage students? Is the government prepared to demonstrate that every student will have equitable access to the necessary courses, and that poorer kids without access to computers and internet at home won't be left hanging?

- Pay. Not correcting for inflation is a pay cut. Public sector wages as a general norm are adjusted for inflation during the periodic contract negotiations. Anyone who does draw or has drawn a military paycheck has been the beneficiary of this. A proposed wage increase that falls below inflation is an effective pay cut. What is the government's justification for proposing to cut teach pay? How does that jive with the simultaneous demand to increase class sizes by 27% and greatly increase teacher workload? How does this work when at his policy convention yesterday, the premier was touting the strength of the provincial economy under his watch?

I back the teachers on this. I have no family nor close friends teaching, I don't have kids. I don't have a dog in the fight other than wanting our society to do a really good job of educating kids an reaping the benefits that brings.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

So if students miss a whole bunch of school and everyone still graduates, would people be amiss in believing that there is significant fluff in the curriculum and that maybe teachers don't deserve more?   

Staff edit: hit modify instead of quote

Teachers are appropriately compensated for what they do.  I say that as someone whose parents were both school teachers.  My mother was a teacher, vice principal, principal, director and finally school district superintendent.  She ran a school district with 36 schools, thousands of students, a significant aboriginal student population, 100s of teachers, support staff, bus drivers, maintenance workers, technicians, etc and a budget that's every bit as large as something you would see at an L1/L2 level in the Armed Forces, with the added complexity of some significant domestic political issues thrown in.

She would say that one of the biggest issues facing the education system today is too many people becoming teachers who have absolutely no business being in the classroom and Universities handing out certifications like candy.

They go in to the profession because they see it as an easy pay cheque where they don't have to do a whole lot of work.  Teachers do less today than they used to and they are compensated more.  It's a struggle getting teachers nowadays to run extra-curricular activities and many teachers view work like lesson planning, etc as something they should only have to do when they are on the clock. 

We aren't getting value for money out of the education system anymore.