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New MBT(Leo 2, M1A2, or Challenger 2), new light tank (Stingray), or new DFSV (M8 or MGS)?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Wm. Harris
  • Start date Start date
What are the price comparisons between the new armoured car designs with their inadequate armour, non-tank destroying gun and lamentable ammunition capacity and the price of the newly available surplus Leopard II A5 that are being shopped around Europe?  I know Canada likes to bring a jacknife to a swordfight to save a nickel, but when they are beating the swords into plowshares, you can sometimes get as good a price on an actual sword as the jacknife you had settled on.  If the numbers are even half close, then why would we buy a "not tank, not very good SP gun"  when we can get a full up main battle tank that can do the SP gun for infantry support, tank destroy current generation MBT (not just 1970's retreads), survive the sorts of IED and RPG that are so much fun for our friends in the sandpit, and be outfitted with enough handy-dandy attachments to use them for any task from mine clearing to civil defence disaster response?
 
Speaking strictly for myself, there is a use for armoured cars, over and above the requirement for tanks.  I would never advocate replacing tanks with armoured cars, but rather use them to supplement tanks.  They are handy for such things as convoy escort, rear are security, flank protection and as a DFSV.

That said, in a small army such as ours, I doubt that we have the resources, especially in manpower, to have an Armour Corps equipped with tanks, armoured cars as well as recce vehicles.
 
Recce = VBL + Coyote  :)
Infantry = LAV 25 and new Bison type with remote turret+ a 76-105mm gunned AC (Pirranha 10x10 with GIAT 105mm turret?
Armour supported with Mech infantry in CV90 type IFV's
 
The two big advantages I see wheeled DFSV have is speed and fuel economy. However tanks (MBT) have armor protection, cross country mobility and can shoot better on the move.  After watching some of the videos of the LAV III doing OK in combat (I noticed it had to tackle a steep ditch at a slow speed and i beleive the leo would probably have plowed through that faster).


Who knows, maybe the US FCS MGV will address both issues. I know the MGV series is tracked and i beleive they are aiming for 80 KM/H speed with a top weight of 30 tonnes.  That there might be the compromise needed between a current MBT and the wheeled DFSV kicking around out there.
 
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24311/post-478518.html#msg478518 Illustrates the CV_CT turret mounting the 90mm cannon, but it is capable of mounting a 105mm cannon as well.

The arguments for tanks vs armoured cars is sound, but the reality is we are building a force around a wheeled fleet for now, and so should look at the best possible piece of equipment to compliment that idea. A LAV CV_CT/105 provides an armoured car which is logistically compatible with the rest of the LAV fleet, has similar strategic, operational and tactical mobility, and provides the sort of hitting power a 25mm chain gun does not. All the minus points of an armoured car are noted.

Organizationally, there is room for this sort of vehicle, recce squadrons need a troop of DFSV's to protect Coyotes or "mud recce" vehicles and Infantry companies could use a platoon for intimate fire support (SBCT model). We could buy and operate enough to have economy of scale and a large enough experience pool to experiment and evolve TTPs and lessons learned.

To my mind, a light tank would need a tracked APC/IFV as a compliment, and a MBT would need a heavy IFV as it's "team partner". Having parts of the combat team that are unable to stay together due to different speeds, cross country mobility etc. leads to having them vulnerable to being separated and defeated in detail.
 
From a military geographical point of view, all of the armoured vehicles mentioned, are soft on top and underneath. While the Taliban may not now have top attack munitions, we should not procure additional armour based upon the Afghan mission.  The small sqn of Leopard's should suffice for that bn gp.

We need amour for the next threat, which may be very near and much more serious to Canada, its allies, and our trade, if/when IRAQ falls.  I would prefer a substantial increase in new armour development leading to one new alliance main battle tank. The existing NATO inventory is too vulnerable.  Using new armour and other existing technologies, should present any enemy with a formidable tank opponent.  However, first and foremost to putting our infantry on top with the fewest casualties is the need for effective armour that can take a pounding from all directions.
 
a_majoor said:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24311/post-478518.html#msg478518 Illustrates the CV_CT turret mounting the 90mm cannon, but it is capable of mounting a 105mm cannon as well.

I think that's the 105MM. The CT stands for the tower and CV for the cannon. So CT-CV is tower/gun.

http://www.cmigroupe.com/vpage.php?id=142


http://www.cmigroupe.com/files/movies/montagever23.mpg

Old brochure 90MM with pics of turret/cannon on Piranha II platform (that was made I think by GDLS Canada) for the Saudis

http://www.cmigroupe.com/files/files/defence/lcts90.pdf

New brochure CT-CV

http://www.cmigroupe.com/files/files/defence/BATdefense-ctcv.pdf

http://www.cmigroupe.com/files/files/defence/cmi-defense-newsletter09-05-nocut.pdf



 
sandyson said:
We need amour for the next threat, which may be very near and much more serious to Canada, its allies, and our trade, if/when IRAQ falls.  I would prefer a substantial increase in new armour development leading to one new alliance main battle tank. The existing NATO inventory is too vulnerable.  Using new armour and other existing technologies, should present any enemy with a formidable tank opponent.  However, first and foremost to putting our infantry on top with the fewest casualties is the need for effective armour that can take a pounding from all directions.

Shades of MBT 70, Shudder!!!!  :o
 
What is old is new again. I came across some web pages describing a light tank design from the early 1980's for the American Rapid Deployment Force (RDF). Many of the same arguments now trotted out for things like the Stryker and MGS were touted then; lightweight, hard hitting, air deployable etc. http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/tankita2.html (There is a lot of "stuff" surrounding the section on the RDF tank concept, read it for its own value)

Of interest is a version mounting both the 75mm ARES rapid fire cannon and two pods with anti aircraft missiles. The RDF was conceived to fight was a Soviet invasion of the Middle East, and the force needed to be able to fight against a much larger mechanized force which had aircraft and attack helicopters at its disposal. The high angle of elevation is useful for our purposes since the vehicle can engage in a 3D environment and deal with enemy snipers/RPG teams firing from the rooftops. You could picture some sort of TUAV being stored and launched from a pod as opposed to a SAM.

Could such a vehicle be made today? There is no doubt that it could, the original hull was made from M-113 parts if I understand correctly and we could go that route or perhaps a somewhat heavier/stronger one made from a M-2 hull. The 75mm ARES is a bit problematic, but a 105mm cannon would serve most of the needs of an expeditionary force in a much smaller and lighter package than a Leopard.
 
I got tho crawl around one of the AGS prototypes at Littlefields, the armour is quite thin, likely enough to top small arms, but nothing else.
 
sandyson said:
From a military geographical point of view, all of the armoured vehicles mentioned, are soft on top and underneath. While the Taliban may not now have top attack munitions, we should not procure additional armour based upon the Afghan mission.  The small sqn of Leopard's should suffice for that bn gp.

We need amour for the next threat, which may be very near and much more serious to Canada, its allies, and our trade, if/when IRAQ falls.  I would prefer a substantial increase in new armour development leading to one new alliance main battle tank. The existing NATO inventory is too vulnerable.  Using new armour and other existing technologies, should present any enemy with a formidable tank opponent.  However, first and foremost to putting our infantry on top with the fewest casualties is the need for effective armour that can take a pounding from all directions.

One problem if you try to take a pounding from all directions is that you might end up not being able to take a hit from any direction.  If making your turret roof invulnerable to top-attack ATGMs or your hull floor immune to triple-stack AT mines means that your front can not withstand RPG or tank cannon hits then I'm not sure its a good thing.  That being said I realize that we need to tweak our vehicles protection to face projected/anticipated/existing threats and we may have access to emerging technologies to help us. 

Stepping back a bit, I tend to favour protection over the other main factors (firepower and mobility) but I also think that it can be taken too far.  Heavier tanks have recovery difficulties, meaning that damaged tanks may have to be destroyed because they can't be moved.  I figure that we focus on crew survivability as opposed to vehicular invulnerability.  Tanks can be replaced.  I would still favour the frontal arc over the other aspects.  Combine that with a gun that can kill other vehicles and soft targets.  I'm not too worried about high speed, although reliability is critical as is being somewhat insensitive to terrain.

I'm not optimistic about a NATO tank.  There are too many competing ideas and interests.  Look how hard it is to get a project across the LD in one army alone.  When it comes to tanks buy American and let the rest do what they may.  Ammo and fuel commonality, however, would be good things to strive for. 

What is the threat you are worried about?  Are you concerned about a country or alliance of countries fighting us conventionally?  Complacency kills and we can't ignore the "symetrical" threat, but I think that Western armies are configured pretty well at the present for heavy-metal clashes against those who wish to play that game.  I find myself worrying about Afghanistan more these days, since it is where we are fighting.  I know its short-sighted, but I am trying to deal with the alligator closest to the boat so to speak.
 
We could solve the problem by arming each armoured unit with different tanks, M1, Merk 4 & either the Leo2 or Leclerc. Just send the unit with the right tanks for each type of fight.

(in jest, dream big or go home)  ;)
 
a_majoor said:
What is old is new again. I came across some web pages describing a light tank design from the early 1980's for the American Rapid Deployment Force (RDF). Many of the same arguments now trotted out for things like the Stryker and MGS were touted then; lightweight, hard hitting, air deployable etc. http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/tankita2.html (There is a lot of "stuff" surrounding the section on the RDF tank concept, read it for its own value)

Of interest is a version mounting both the 75mm ARES rapid fire cannon and two pods with anti aircraft missiles. The RDF was conceived to fight was a Soviet invasion of the Middle East, and the force needed to be able to fight against a much larger mechanized force which had aircraft and attack helicopters at its disposal. The high angle of elevation is useful for our purposes since the vehicle can engage in a 3D environment and deal with enemy snipers/RPG teams firing from the rooftops. You could picture some sort of TUAV being stored and launched from a pod as opposed to a SAM.

Could such a vehicle be made today? There is no doubt that it could, the original hull was made from M-113 parts if I understand correctly and we could go that route or perhaps a somewhat heavier/stronger one made from a M-2 hull. The 75mm ARES is a bit problematic, but a 105mm cannon would serve most of the needs of an expeditionary force in a much smaller and lighter package than a Leopard.
I have always loved the AAI RDF 75 it always struck me as an effective  highly mobile( in every sense of the word) high fire power solution to deploying armour in an expeditionary force.
The only thing that bothers me is that the "Sparkites" have taken it up as cudgel in their neverending battle to make us deluded and corrupt infidels see the light viz. the Gavin ( all praise it's holy name!!)I suspect that is why very few will ever take it seriously or anyone sings it's praises.
 
About the only way to protect a tank fully is to either go for a motorized fortress (British tanks since the Cheiftan and the Merkava follow this principle, and the M1 and Leopard 2 are not far behind), try not to be hit (light tanks like the AMX-13 or CV 90120 would need to do this), apply some techno magic (Chobahm, Blazer reactive armour, Drozd or Arena active systems, electric armour) or go for exotic designs (S tank).

Every approach has some advantages and some disadvantages, and there are lots of threads on this forum which discuss them. The point that I am making is that we need to know what it is we want to do with the Forces before we can decide on an approach to the tank/DFSV/assault gun or whatever. If our forces are configured to fight a conventional battle, then all out MBT's are the way to go. If we are looking at a primarily "first responder" expeditionary force, then light tanks are the way to go. If we are seduced by the siren's song of a "transformational force", then techno magic needs to be applied.

In the real world, trade offs and compromises are needed since many of these factors and others are in play; we may "want" MBT's but have no practical way of deploying them or supporting them in the field. From a forcasting point of view, I will still stake out a position for a smaller, lighter tank to satisfy logistical and mobility issues for a deployed force, and note that clever design, such as placing the crew in an armoured "pod" or surrounding them with vehicle mass such as the engine block and fuel tanks provides a great deal of protection without increasing the overall mass of the vehicle to unreasonable levels. A developed version of the CV 90120 would be in the 30-40 ton range, while something developed from the Puma IFV would be in the 40-50 ton range, which should satisfy the logistics and mobility issues. (A LeClerc is in the low 50 ton range, but cannot be spun off into a family of vehicles like the CV-90 or Puma. If we are willing to accept that limitation, it represents the "upper boundary" that I would set for our future tank).

Since we are dealing with an uncertain environment, and know that technological change will be constant through the lifespan of any future vehicle, we should also look at making it as versatile as possible, so high angle gun mounts, the potential to fire smart munitions, high bandwidth communications and sensor systems should all be considered as desirable for any new design.
 
I don't know if we'll be a first responder to anything but a humanitarian disaster, but then its hard to predict the future.  I'm not a proponent of light tanks.  If it takes three weeks to get big tanks to theatre then I guess it takes three weeks.

When it comes to tonnage, are two thirty-ton vehicles superior to one seventy-ton vehicle?  I guess it depends.  I'm not talking about a cage match between one M1 and two CV90120Ts, as fun as that would be, but rather the shipping opportunity cost.  If you were commanding a deployed task force, would you rather have a troop of M1A2s or a half-sqn of CV90120Ts?

As a diversion I've been reading about the Japanese campaigns in 1941/42 (the benefits of working in the same building as the Fort Frontenac Library).  The Japanese employed "light" tanks in Malaya and the Philippines to good effect.  Their tanks were pretty much obsolete in western terms and faired quite badly against the Soviets in 1939 and then again in 1945.  In late 1941 and early 1942, however, they posed a huge threat to the British in Malaya who had no tanks and rather limited AT capabilities.  Japanese tanks scored many successes, although some ambushes and determined stands by seasoned troops certainly took a toll.  The Japanese had kept their tanks light (ten to fifteen tons) for a variety of reasons, with deployability being one.  It should be noted that they were certainly not alone in having light tanks in the 30s.  They paid for it later in the war, especially in Manchuria, but there were some other issues there as well.

Malaya demonstrates again that the employment of tanks in a place that they are not expected (the jungle across the sea in this case) can pay dividends.  The best tank country is usually the one with the least anti-tank weapons.  The Japanese armour experience in Malaya, however, does run counter to my beliefs about light vs heavy.  If something does not fit your theory then I guess you have to change the theory.  Back to the lab. 

If you are willing to take risks (or gamble) then I suppose that lighter vehicles can work for you.  I don't know if we (western forces) want to take those risks.  Perhaps one thirty ton tank is better than no 70 ton tank.  Our own recent experience in Afghanistan has shown that twenty ton AFVs can have a decisive effect against the right enemy.   
 
Red_Five said:
If you are willing to take risks (or gamble) then I suppose that lighter vehicles can work for you.  I don't know if we (western forces) want to take those risks.  Perhaps one thirty ton tank is better than no 70 ton tank.  Our own recent experience in Afghanistan has shown that twenty ton AFVs can have a decisive effect against the right enemy.   

My argument summarized, quite nicely, thank you.
 
Historically the British used a small number of light tanks (5-12tons) and armoured cars to control the NWF, a good read is by John Masters. Mind you the Pastun tribes didn’t have access to IED’s or RPG’s at the time so were more or less defenseless against they vehicles.
 
Art,

You're welcome!  Bear in mind that I had the word "Perhaps" in my phrase, and I'm not sure that the choice is as stark as that.  ;)

When it comes to light tanks, I suppose it could be said that in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king.  Something is usually better than nothing (Scorpians in the Falklands, Japanese tanks in Malaya), but you may have some choice about the something.  In addition, you may also have some choice about how you got into the mess.  If you can't do something right, maybe don't do it.  It may be better to liberate a country deliberately after an invasion with a heavy force rather than try to send a light force as a show of force.  I think that having the initiative is a good thing. 

Colin,

I think that you have captured a key aspect of the issue.
 
Dec. 11- Singapore announced the purchase of 66 (familar number) refurbushed Leo 2A4's + 25 more to be used as spares from German surplus. If this great military power can afford them ????

cheers
 
Meanwhile Singapore is buying 60 Leo2's  :(

Their tankers will be happy, going from the AMX-13 to the Leo 2!!!!
 
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