New Helicopter announcement tomorrow

[Scoobie Newbie]

Between the Sikorsky H92 and the EH101.   Rumor has it that the H92 bid was less money.   This will be for 28 helicopters.   A reminder that crack smoking Chrétien who got two brand new jets cancelled the contract when he took office and cost us $500 million in penalties.

http://www.sikorsky.com/details/0,3036,CLI1_DIV69_ETI1583,00.html


http://www.vectorsite.net/aveh101.html

 

[Yard Ape]

Which bird is better? (no unqualified opinions please)

 

[ags281]

My preference would be the EH-101, as it has a slightly larger useful load, 3 engines rather than 2, and a greater range. That being said, I'm slightly biased as I can still remember hearing the Cormorant call in as "rescue" over the radio for the very first time before taking off (seeing the labs sit one out on the apron for the first time in decades drove it home that an era was ending).

While I'd be happiest with the EH-101, I really don't care which one gets it in the end so long as we finally get going on replacing the poor Sea Kings. It's been far too long, and they've earned their rest.

 

[ringo_mountbatten]

looks like the decision has been made for political reason according to this globe article: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040723.wxseakings0723/BNStory/National/
personally i think things could be a lot worse.  it is still is the second best aircraft for the job, behind the eh101, and to be fair the s92 design is about a decade newer than the eh101.  i don't think anyone is surprised that the cdn govt went for the cheaper of the two, as for the compatibilty between the new jss and the h92, my feeling the source is a peeved westland manager.  both companies were slinging crap at each other during the whole process so why would it even come close to ending now.  besides how hard is it to adjust specs on a ship that has yet to even hit the drawing board? 

 

[ringo_mountbatten]

here is a good webpage with a good breakdown of the h92 and what it can do.
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/superhawk/index.html

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Sikorsky has always been a pioneer in the field of rotary wing aircraft and have decades of experience, while the navy I think was looking more to the EH101 (having a third engine over the North Atlantic is always a nice buffer zone) I think the S92 will prove to be a workhorse as much as the SeaKing did. I know I am looking forward to see what it can do a fewyears down the road.

As for not being compatible with the JSS, who knows maybe another helo (troop lift) with be sought down the road.

 

[Inch]

I agree with Ex-Dragoon, Sikorsky has been a pioneer in helicopter building since the 50s. The Sea King is a Sikorsky product that's been flying for 40+ years. As for the 3rd engine, as I stated in another post, I for one don't think of it as that big of an advantage.   The H92 can do everything that the EH101 can do with one engine out, and the truth of the matter is, if you lose 2 engines it's probably a fuel problem or something like that and a dozen engines won't prevent an autorotation. The more engines you've got, the more chances you have for an engine failure, either way your mission is over and it's time to go into self preservation mode and head for the ship, either that or get ready for a brisk swim in the North Atlantic.

Cheers

 

[ringo_mountbatten]

the amount of engines has been something that has been overplayed in modern aviation.  back 20-30 years ago it was a big consideration, but now with improved reliability really makes no difference.  i think for cdn industry the h92 was a far better choice that allows a lot of the firms involved to be the first on the block with h92 experience.  the eh101 already has a set industrial support system whereas canada will become the first nation with a military version of this aircraft and that allows canada to create the infrastructure for any future orders by other nations.  i can almost bet most of the bad press will be generated from the losig bid team and people such as scott taylor. 

 

[tabernac]

But why would the S92 not fit on the JSS?

 

[Gunnar]

Sikorsky helicopters to replace Sea Kings
Last Updated Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:47:47 EDT
OTTAWA - Canada will replace its fleet of aging Sea King helicopters with the Sikorsky S-92. Defence Minister Bill Graham announced the selection on Friday at the Shearwater Naval Air Station in Nova Scotia.

 
Sikorsky S-92 

INDEPTH: Requiem for a Sea King

"The S-92, or Cyclone as it will be called, will enhance our national security by strengthening the Canadian Forces' ability to respond to emerging threats in Canada's maritime areas of jurisdiction," said Graham.

"It will also help to ensure Canada maintains a meaningful capacity to contribute militarily to collective efforts to safeguard international peace and security."

The government will spend $3.2 billion to buy 28 helicopters.

The Sikorsky is "the right helicopter for the Canadian Forces at the best price for Canadians," said Graham.

"The country will be getting a robust maritime helicopter that will meet our military needs for many years to come."

The main competition for the contract came from the EH-101 Cormorant, built by a British-Italian consortium led by EH Industries.

Graham said the Sikorsky met all the military's requirements at a lower cost.

 
Bill Graham at the Shearwater Naval Air Station, N.S. 
The EH-101 was the helicopter chosen more than a decade ago by the Brian Mulroney government to replace the Sea Kings. The contract was ripped up by the Liberals when they came to power in 1993.

The government paid $500 million in penalties for backing out of the deal.

The aging and problem-plagued Sea Kings will remain in service until at least 2012. The first Sikorsky won't be delivered for at least four years.

Once the first Sikorsky is delivered, Public Works Minister Scott Brison said, the company will deliver one a month over the following 27 months.

The 1960s-era Sea Kings require an enormous amount of maintenance to keep them flying. There have been four fatal crashes since they were brought into service.
Written by CBC News Online staff
===========

It's been a while since I compared the challengers, but I figured the gov't would go with the Sikorsky's....they fit most of the requirements, wouldn't cost the government in terms of an embarassing about-face, and Sikorsky is a good name in helicopters.  Guess which one of these three things was most important to the Liberal government, hmmm?

Wonder if they were still cheaper if they factored in the $500 mil penalty that the EH101 guys offered to rebate the gov't?

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Stupid name though.   What is JSS?  Hopefully a new gov't won't axe this although even the NDP said we need new choppers.  How many Sea Kings are currently in servvice?

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/Newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=1415

News Release
Sikorsky H92 Selected as New Canadian Forces Maritime Helicopter
NRâ “04.054 - July 23, 2004


Photo Courtesy of Sikorsky International Operations Inc.

OTTAWAâ ” After a thorough pre-qualification and bid evaluation process, the Government of Canada has selected the H92 proposed by Sikorsky as the winner of the Maritime Helicopter Project.

â Å“The Government of Canada firmly believes that the Sikorsky H92 helicopter represents the right helicopter for the Canadian Forces at the best price for Canadians,â ? said the honourable Bill Graham, Minister of National Defence. â Å“The Sikorsky H92 provides a world-class robust, multi-role helicopter that will serve our defence needs for years to come.â ?

â Å“With this completion of the evaluation of proposals and the selection of the winning supplier, the Maritime Helicopter Project has marked an important milestone,â ? said the Honourable Scott Brison, Minister of Public Works and Government Services. â Å“The Government has conducted a fair, open and comprehensive procurement process, and now looks forward to the next stage of the procurement process, the establishment of formal contracts with the supplier.â ?

"More than simply providing the right helicopter, the Sikorsky bid is a true win for Canadian high-technology industries, particularly the aerospace and defence companies who will partner in the delivery and long-term service of these helicopters," said the Honourable David Emerson, Minister of Industry. "This project will deliver sustained industrial activity in regions across Canada, in our small businesses and in our Aboriginal businesses, and will showcase our talented work force and innovative companies long after the delivery of the last helicopter."

â Å“The selection of the Sikorsky H92 helicopter heralds an exciting new era for the men and women who operate our maritime helicopters,â ? said General Ray Henault, Chief of the Defence Staff. â Å“The addition of a cutting-edge maritime helicopter will greatly enhance the ability of the Navy and Air Force to conduct domestic maritime security operations and support international missions.â ?

Sikorsky will be awarded two separate, but interrelated contracts. The first contract will cover the acquisition of 28 fully integrated, certified and qualified helicopters with their mission systems installed, and will also include modifications to the 12 Halifax Class ships. The second contract will be for a 20-year in-service support contract that includes a training building, and a simulation and training suite. The contract should be finalized and signed this fall.

Delivery of the first helicopter is required to be no later than 48 months from contract award with the remaining helicopters to be delivered at a rate of one per month thereafter. The contract has a series of bonuses for early delivery but also imposes penalties for late delivery, making it very much in the company's interest to deliver the helicopters as soon as possible.

- 30 -

For additional information on the Maritime Helicopter Project, please refer to our Backgrounder entitled â Å“The Maritime Helicopter Projectâ ? or contact the Department of National Defence at (613) 996-2353/2354.

For information on the procurement process, please contact Public Works and Government Services Canada Communications at (613) 956-2310.

For information on industrial and regional benefits, please contact Industry Canada Media Relations at (613) 943-2502.

 

[Inch]

Stupid name though.   What is JSS?   Hopefully a new gov't won't axe this although even the NDP said we need new choppers.   How many Sea Kings are currently in servvice?

Cyclone is better than Petrel, which was what it was going to be called the first time we were supposed to get replacements.  As for the NDP, the MP for Shearwater area is an NDP, I met him today, he seems to support the military, mostly because Shearwater is a big part of the local economy and he wants to keep us where we are, not to mention the fact that he was surrounded by about 300 of us today so he couldn't exactly bad mouth the military.

JSS is Joint Support Ship, it's currently on the drawing board to replace the tankers (Protecteur and the other 2). There's info on it somewhere.

At present there are 28 Sea Kings, we've crashed 7 over the years.

 

[Recce41]

I believe we bought it for three reasons:

1. Its partly owned buy the same "B" company that brought us our . MLVW, HLVW, Iltis, Challengers, etc,etc.
2. We had to kiss alil US ***
3. We are so F%^&ing cheap.

We as Canadian, buy crap. ie WW1-the Ross Rifle, WW2- I cannot recall anything that sticks out, Korea-mixed US and British kit because we sold most of ours to the Greece,South Africa,etc after the WW2, We cut the Arrow/the BobCat/the Maritime Class ships, rented Leos, bought the MLVW,etc, now the Griffin, LAV Family and NOW the H92.

Add it up 3.2 Bil+500mil for 28 which =   or before 5 bil for 50

 

[Inch]

Don't forget the $790m for the 15 Cormorants. That's a total of $4.49B or $104M a copy, the original contract was $100M a copy.

Bombardier doesn't own a stake in Sikorsky Int'l that I've ever heard of.

As for the Ross rifle, there's a little misconception there, it was a more accurate rifle than the Enfields, however, when our boys got over seas they weren't issued the proper ammunition, they got cheaper stuff that gummed up the rifles, very similar to what happened with the M16 in Vietnam.  Once they started using the proper ammo the M16 turned out to be a very good weapon.

The LAV's I can't believe you have a heartache with, even the Marine Corps bought them, they're a fine piece of kit.  We wouldn't be exporting it in such large numbers if it sucked that much. Where we're going wrong is trying to replace an MBT with a LAV, that's a dumb idea.

Cheers

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

My initial impression is that I like the deal.

In particular, $4.5 billion in Canadian Investment by Sikorsky as an offset is huge!

Bottom Line:  Unless this bird ends up being just terrible, I think we got an unreal
deal in order to be the very first customer for the aircraft.

JMHO,



Matthew. 

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Just a couple of add-on's....

1) Apparently the new engines (CT7-8Z's) have 25% more power than the standard S-92 engines,
which should enable single engine operation in case of emergency.

2) Here's a picture that may be more representative of the final design (visualize in blue/grey):

Cheers all....



Matthew.  

 

[Pieman]

What is the aircrew for this type of chopper? Is it the same as the sea king?

Also another question for Inch and other Air force people:

Do you happen to know how flexible this kind of chopper is in it's roles? From what I understand, the importance of submarine hunting is not as high as it used to be? (Cold war era) Is this chopper going to be flexible to play other roles in the war on terror?

Someone said it was not compatable with JSS, why exactly not? Too little room on board, or lack of on bord defence systems?

 

[Fruss]

Bombardier doesn't own a stake in Sikorsky Int'l that I've ever heard of.

From http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/superhawk/index.html
Sikorsky and Bombardier Aerospace have an industrial teaming agreement to offer the H-92 as a replacement for Canada's Maritime Helicopter. 28 helicopters are required and a selection is planned for the summer of 2004.


By the way, does someone know if this helo will be able to lift the arty??  I read somewhere that the Griffon was not able to..  I don't know about the Sea-King..  What will it be able to transport?  LAV, arty, MBT?????

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I believe that it is not intended to fill the role of transporting arty.  Strictly naval thing.