New Dress Regs 🤣

[Humphrey Bogart]

Fook it! This retired WO says line up all the senior officers in the CAF on the parade square for a healthy evening of kit inspections, remedial foot drill and and change parades. I volunteer to run this.

What will this accomplish? Not a damn thing but at least I will be entertained. It will be as useful as the CAF constantly changing miniscule rules that amount to nothing.

People are getting out or not joining in the first place has nothing to do with woke dress policies. Seriously, offer adventure, CHALLENGE (physical and mental), skills, job satisfaction and team comradery are much better temptations than pointless dress regulations changes.

I think we found the next candidate for CDS!

Finally someone gets it. When I was 18, the only reason I wanted to join was to try and attempt this:

HB, I think that % also varies by service. I’d argue that SSM is closer to being substantive/majority in the RCAF. Any service that comes up with an operationally-functional goretex raincoat that keeps you dry AND has fleece-lined pockets probably get greater personnel buy-in than one that keeps you in a cheap plastic one that smells like dog vomit and keeps more sweat inside than it protects from rain outside.

I'm just trying to give SSM an alternative perspective.

Sometimes the uncomfortable truth is something that we don't necessarily want to admit.

Truth #1: Combat Arms Sub-Units have more in common with a 1% Motorcycle Club than they do with the Fighter Jet Community

 

[Brad Sallows]

Except that, in the 70s, all members were from the Baby Boomer generation which, as we know, is a generation that is different from the current crop of recruits...

Sure. paisley prints, flowered prints, corduroy, cutoffs, sandals (with and without socks), long hair, beards, beaded necklaces...and that was just the teachers.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Have you ever tried proving that a rule doesn’t exist? My base had a collective heart attack in the fall when the base chief saw someone in Tim’s defying the assumed rule. He’ll hath no fury. I spent like a day on this. It’s not in the National dress manual, that just says gloves need to be worn with a gaberdine or something like that, also says operational dress per the formation commander’s discretion. CADO 1-106 just says you can wear a toque, also you can wear gloves. My base orders say that you shall wear gloves with a rain jacket, nobody seems to know or care about this one, nothing about toques. So I point out to the Unit chief that Bloggins isn’t doing anything wrong, it’s not a real rule and here’s what I’ve discovered; he points at the gaberdine one and says well it’s implied here

Thankfully, Officers using common sense can override said Chiefs and end the conversation quickly. Heck they can even say “respectfully you’re wrong”. Trump card. According to 265, Warrant Officers only assist Officers, not overrule them.

 

[kev994]

Thankfully, Officers using common sense can override said Chiefs and end the conversation quickly. Heck they can even say “respectfully you’re wrong”. Trump card. According to 265, Warrant Officers only assist Officers, not overrule them.

Who wants to stop and argue with every chief on the base? It’s easier just to have cold fingers, or ears, I can never remember which one it is.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Who wants to stop and argue with every chief on the base? It’s easier just to have cold fingers, or ears, I can never remember which one it is.

If I was an Officer there’d be no arguing. “Thanks for your opinion Chief. That’s not how I see it. The member is not doing anything wrong.” End of convo.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

That sort of foolishness is why the air force way is best. If you're cold wear authorized kit to be warm, if you're warm take off the offending layer.

Honestly; I’ve ignored and not enforce the whole toque and gloves BS. The worst I saw for stupidity and dress concurrently was the RCN at Stadacona. CP02s at the entrance posted at the base entrances policing dress. We had a Sgt on course at ADAC a few years back who was stopped because the lid was open on his Tim’s cup. ROFL. Absolutely right out of er.

 

[SupersonicMax]

If I was an Officer there’d be no arguing. “Thanks for your opinion Chief. That’s not how I see it. The member is not doing anything wrong.” End of convo.

You’d be surprised how this would generally land you in a small world of shite. Chief will get angry to be told someone thinks he is wrong. He’ll talk to the base Chief who, generally with little context and one side of the story, will talk to the Base Commander who, with even less context, will talk with the Sqn CO who will have a one way conversation with you. By that point, everyone’s mind is already made up (and the story isn’t about dress anyways but being “disrespectful “ towards the Chief(even though you were really polite - disagreeing is what is disrespectful), so there is no point in arguing.

I’ve seen it play out a couple of times in different context (not only dress).

 

[Eye In The Sky]

You’d be surprised how this would generally land you in a small world of shite. Chief will get angry to be told someone thinks he is wrong. He’ll talk to the base Chief who, generally with little context and one side of the story, will talk to the Base Commander who, with even less context, will talk with the Sqn CO who will have a one way conversation with you. By that point, everyone’s mind is already made up (and the story isn’t about dress anyways but being “disrespectful “ towards the Chief(even though you were really polite - disagreeing is what is disrespectful), so there is no point in arguing.

I’ve seen it play out a couple of times in different context (not only dress).

It’s not entirely lost on me how interaction between Sqn COs and Sqn WOs interact with the WCWO etc. My last previous posting, there was no MWO between myself and my SCWO and this past PER season I’ve been an A/SWO for a fair part of it.

What you’re saying it’s the inaccurate; but it’s the not acceptable either. Part of the needed culture change in the CAF is presented in your post.

Part of our culture issue, IMO is this idea of Command Team. Why is the typical Command Team the CO and CWO? Why not CO and DCO and then CWO? When is a CWO in Command if the CO is away? Never. My CO and DCO have been away. I’ve been A/SWO. I didn’t go to the WComd CUB - the Ops O did. I would discuss things with the CO/ DCO as required and give me thoughts and recommendations - the decision was never mine to make.

Eg:

The Royal Canadian Air Force Command Chief Warrant Officer (RCAF CCWO) is the senior enlisted member of the air force. They act as an advisor to the Commander of the RCAF on matters affecting all ranks in matters related to dress, discipline, morale and welfare, and quality of life.

Advisor to Commander; not Commander. This is true at the RCAF/Div/Wing/Sqn levels.

We need to start getting this right.

 

[kev994]

Part of our culture issue, IMO is this idea of Command Team. Why is the typical Command Team the CO and CWO? Why not CO and DCO and then CWO? .

This is what my unit does in practice.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

The same argument about hair, etc applies to uniform. Why not have a selection of hats and shoes and whatnot for each order of dress and allow people to choose what to wear for a particular order?

That is the RCAF

You mean like choosing to wear 3Bs with or without a sweater, long or short sleeved, oxfords or ankle boots, etc etc? NCDs with or without a jacket, rolled or unrolled sleeves, etc? Ball caps or berets or peak caps (as applicable)?

Yeah, that's be terrible.

If you’re going to try to make an argument it helps to be accurate.

There is no 3b with sweater. There is no 3b with long sleeve; those are different orders of dress entirely. In the RCAF at least, I can wear a LS or SS shirt with tunic or oxfords or ankle boots unless ordered a certain item for a parade; that uniformity is allowed in 265.

In operational dress I can wear a wedge or beret and, in the future, ball hat.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Honestly; I’ve ignored and not enforce the whole toque and gloves BS. The worst I saw for stupidity and dress concurrently was the RCN at Stadacona. CP02s at the entrance posted at the base entrances policing dress. We had a Sgt on course at ADAC a few years back who was stopped because the lid was open on his Tim’s cup. ROFL. Absolutely right out of er.

It's true. The dress police. Haven't seen them active in a while.

We used to be, still are ? Really concerned about walking in and out dress. I remember having to wear salt and peppers to work to then change into work dress.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

It's true. The dress police. Haven't seen them active in a while.

We used to be, still are ? Really concerned about walking in and out dress. I remember having to wear salt and peppers to work to then change into work dress.

Daily dress Stadacona; Jnr NCOs and below, operational dress. Snr NCOs and above, 3b.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Daily dress Stadacona; Jnr NCOs and below, operational dress. Snr NCOs and above, 3b.

In general yup. But they're are exceptions.

Same for HMC Dockyard.

My next post is to the main warehouse. And while I am a CPO2 my dress is operational dress as I will be working in a warehouse.

 

[daftandbarmy]

That is the RCAF


If you’re going to try to make an argument it helps to be accurate.

There is no 3b with sweater. There is no 3b with long sleeve; those are different orders of dress entirely. In the RCAF at least, I can wear a LS or SS shirt with tunic or oxfords or ankle boots unless ordered a certain item for a parade; that uniformity is allowed in 265.

In operational dress I can wear a wedge or beret and, in the future, ball hat.

View attachment 70293

And I thought Scottish regiments' orders of dress were confusing

 

[Jarnhamar]

We have a culture where ignoring unpopular rules are often treated like a behavior to admire and emulate. We're a strong hierarchy based culture and ignoring dress standards and rules are two ways people try to stand out in the cool-guy hierarchy to be noticed. Sometimes it's for pure functionality purposes (rolling sleeves), sometimes it's also to cultivate a certain image (officers wearing their berets with cap badges almost over their ear like the British), sometimes it's both (cutting down the brim of floppy hats).

Driving vehicles someones not qualified for. Bringing personal weapons to a range. Some G-Wagon beers mid ex. Anecdotal but I personally see a correlation between soldiers going out of their way to ignore dress standards and those ignoring other rules.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

And I thought Scottish regiments' orders of dress were confusing

That’s why they give us pictures n stuff!

 

[daftandbarmy]

That’s why they give us pictures n stuff!

Of course, being a more technical trade than Infantry, they're likely known as 'schematics'

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

You’d be surprised how this would generally land you in a small world of shite. Chief will get angry to be told someone thinks he is wrong. He’ll talk to the base Chief who, generally with little context and one side of the story, will talk to the Base Commander who, with even less context, will talk with the Sqn CO who will have a one way conversation with you. By that point, everyone’s mind is already made up (and the story isn’t about dress anyways but being “disrespectful “ towards the Chief(even though you were really polite - disagreeing is what is disrespectful), so there is no point in arguing.

I’ve seen it play out a couple of times in different context (not only dress).

Which is exactly why I think the entire concept of Command Team is flawed and a lot of Chief's outside of the unit level i.e. Coxn/RSM aren't much in the way of value added.

When you get to what is Chief 1, you should be promoted to the rank of Lt(N)/Capt and carry on.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

We have a culture where ignoring unpopular rules are often treated like a behavior to admire and emulate. We're a strong hierarchy based culture and ignoring dress standards and rules are two ways people try to stand out in the cool-guy hierarchy to be noticed. Sometimes it's for pure functionality purposes (rolling sleeves), sometimes it's also to cultivate a certain image (officers wearing their berets with cap badges almost over their ear like the British), sometimes it's both (cutting down the brim of floppy hats).

Floppy hats with smaller brims make better fishing hats. I mean, allow for better hearing in an O.P.

Driving vehicles someones not qualified for. Bringing personal weapons to a range. Some G-Wagon beers mid ex. Anecdotal but I personally see a correlation between soldiers going out of their way to ignore dress standards and those ignoring other rules.

Have to agree. I find the guy who forgets his flashlight is the same guy who forgets the 4 mile
Escape vector call. Not a rule of thumb, but a lack of self discipline and obedience in one area is a fair predictor for the same performance shortcomings in other areas.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

We have a culture where ignoring unpopular rules are often treated like a behavior to admire and emulate. We're a strong hierarchy based culture and ignoring dress standards and rules are two ways people try to stand out in the cool-guy hierarchy to be noticed. Sometimes it's for pure functionality purposes (rolling sleeves), sometimes it's also to cultivate a certain image (officers wearing their berets with cap badges almost over their ear like the British), sometimes it's both (cutting down the brim of floppy hats).

Driving vehicles someones not qualified for. Bringing personal weapons to a range. Some G-Wagon beers mid ex. Anecdotal but I personally see a correlation between soldiers going out of their way to ignore dress standards and those ignoring other rules.

What? You never had a couple of G-Wagon Beers before?