New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[jmt18325]

For all the doom and gloom, we should keep in mind that 1 CCG ship is almost done, construction on 2 others. 2 AOPs construction is underway and 1 AOR conversion is moving along. By the time Irving and Seaspan are done with the current schedule, replacements will be needed for the 1100 class icebreakers and Kingston Class.

That's true, and that's why I say the program was about 5 years too late.  We wouldn't be where we are right now, if we had supply ships rolling off the line, and destroyers starting construction.

 

[Kirkhill]

1992 Afloat Logistics Support Capability

http://www.cntha.ca/static/documents/mej/mej-32.pdf

Same era as the Merlins/Cyclones.

Protecteur was 23 years old at the time (and interestingly a civvy design).

 

[jollyjacktar]

Pah! We were promised four AOR in the water by 2005. (ALSC) Now,they struggle to deliver even half of that.

Both sides have sung many a fine tune and led us on a pretty dance to nowhere time and time again over the years.  Too many times, bed shitters all.

 

[jmt18325]

It's worth giving Harper some credit then - he actually got the ball rolling, for real.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

JMT I totally agree, getting the NSPS done was amazing in it's own right, considering the diverse politics and interests of this country. It's doubtful that we can support 3 major shipyards in this country, while my hat tips to Davie for what they have done and are doing, they are not located in an area to support the navy effectively. Irving is, now if I could toss Irving management into the chuck and replace it with Davie's I would be a happy camper. It was a reality that Irving was going to win the east coast part, sadly Irving has a death grip on the Maritimes. What I would do right now is sign a contract for a second Resolve Class AOR, continue on with the NSPS schedule and start planning what ships will need replacing and when once the current NSPS ships are built. Both west Coast and East coast yards will need a slow but steady flow of new government hulls to build.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Colin: The Navy is not like the Coast Guard. We do most of our support ourselves at the Dockyards. That's what Fleet Maintenance Forces are for. The "support" we get from actual shipyards are only for build up and for large scale "mid-life" refits. Even the corporations that get "in-service support" contracts come and carry out their work at the Dockyards. So it really does not make any difference where the yards are located. You may recall that one of the IRO's was refitted in the Great Lakes, just as an example.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Colin: The Navy is not like the Coast Guard. We do most of our support ourselves at the Dockyards. That's what Fleet Maintenance Forces are for. The "support" we get from actual shipyards are only for build up and for large scale "mid-life" refits. Even the corporations that get "in-service support" contracts come and carry out their work at the Dockyards. So it really does not make any difference where the yards are located. You may recall that one of the IRO's was refitted in the Great Lakes, just as an example.

The new girls will be ISSC supported.  FMF facilities will be used but the actual folks down the road will more and more be contractors vs in house personnel.  I understand that that (at least at FMFCS) these "outsiders" are to some extent already on the shop floors.  For years they have been whittling down numbers of workers by attrition and other methods.  Many changes have and will come to pass.

 

[Underway]

The new girls will be ISSC supported.  FMF facilities will be used but the actual folks down the road will more and more be contractors vs in house personnel.  I understand that that (at least at FMFCS) these "outsiders" are to some extent already on the shop floors.  For years they have been whittling down numbers of workers by attrition and other methods.  Many changes have and will come to pass.

Less gov't union employee's to deal with.  If you don't like the work that was done it's relatively easy to get rid of a contractor for the next contract.  Also should work slow down you don't need to worry about finding idle hands jobs for folks who can't be laid off until work picks up again.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

On the other hand your corporate knowledge walks out the door and there is no one to shoot the "good idea fairy" when they come to repeat the same mistakes.

 

[Underway]

On the other hand your corporate knowledge walks out the door and there is no one to shoot the "good idea fairy" when they come to repeat the same mistakes.

Nope, they are now the contractors that were originally FMF.

 

[STONEY]

Has anyone else noticed That the largest highest capacity shipyard in Canada Had the entire bridge structure for the Resolve built outside the country in Finland thus employing many Finish workers thus exceeding Irving employing foreign workers.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

True but they are not charging premium price either

 

[Kirkhill]

It does make an interesting cost control comparison though.  Especially as it also incorporates the same L3 Integrated Platform Management System used in the FELEX programme and the AOPS and OSI's Integrated Navigation and Tactical System used on the AOPS.  It seems to me that that control architecture being defined has the potential of reducing all future construction and training costs.  It also has the potential of greatly reducing the design uncertainty costs on future estimates.

So if Davie can get things done for 30 cents on the dollar doing things their way is it not fair to ask what the government can do to help the other yards get down to the same price range?  And is the current system worth a 70 cent premium?

 

[Stoker]

I find it interesting about the negativity towards using ISSC. I have dealt primarily with ISSC for the last 20 years and FMF on occasion. If you want your work completed with no union BS, that's the way to go. Not surprising that most if not all of the new classes of ships are getting ISSC. I haven't seen any FMF workers quit and become contractors, as they generally wouldn't last a minute doing honest work and being fired if they tried their union BS there.

 

[NavyShooter]

FMFCS has 'planned' its way out of maintaining the fleet.

The amount of billed hours to get a single job done is huge.  The process of planning the jobs, then assigning it to a shop...and then tasking the other shop...and then back to the first...crazy.

Consider, we have to install a new cable.  We also need to install a cable bracket to hold it as it goes down a bulkhead.

The job is 'planned' into a work period, and FMF agrees that they'll do it.

First shops shows up and peels away the bulkhead insulation so that the steel is exposed.

Welding shop shows up, with a fire sentry, grinds off a spot of paint, and welds on a threaded stud. 

Fire sentry stays for 60 minutes to ensure cooling/no fires/etc.

Next day, paint shop shows up, puts on a layer of primer (2 brush strokes)

Next day, paint shop shows up, puts on a coat of white paint over the primer (3 brush strokes)

Day after that, once the paint is dry, the insulation guys come back and re-install the insulation.

Paint shop comes back late that day to paint over the patch-tape for the insulation.

Day after that, the electrical shop shows up and threads on the bracket and starts the cable run.

Once the cable run is done, and is clamped in place on the bracket, the electronics shop shows up to do the cable termination.

Once the cable is terminated, they send another guy down to put a label on the cable.  At each end, and on each side of every bulk-head penetration so it can be traced through compartments on the ship.

Then the electronics shop shows up again and tests the cable (can't test it until the labels are on) at which point it's ready to connect.

The Nav shop then shows up and connects the cable to the piece of nav gear that was just installed.

Then, once that's all done, the ship can, at the end of the work period, go back to the ammo depot and bring all the ammo back onboard that had to be landed so that they could weld that close to the magazine (less than 2 meters.)



OR,

Hire an ISSC, who sends a team of 3 guys over, and it's done in a day, and the planned cable run that would have taken it within 2 meters of a magazine is re-routed with an amendment submitted to the specification.

But....FMF is an efficient tool to maintain the fleet....

 

[MilEME09]

You mean maintaining jobs right? And costing us time band money

Sent from my LG-D852 using Tapatalk

 

[Stoker]

FMFCS has 'planned' its way out of maintaining the fleet.

The amount of billed hours to get a single job done is huge.  The process of planning the jobs, then assigning it to a shop...and then tasking the other shop...and then back to the first...crazy.

Consider, we have to install a new cable.  We also need to install a cable bracket to hold it as it goes down a bulkhead.

The job is 'planned' into a work period, and FMF agrees that they'll do it.

First shops shows up and peels away the bulkhead insulation so that the steel is exposed.

Welding shop shows up, with a fire sentry, grinds off a spot of paint, and welds on a threaded stud. 

Fire sentry stays for 60 minutes to ensure cooling/no fires/etc.

Next day, paint shop shows up, puts on a layer of primer (2 brush strokes)

Next day, paint shop shows up, puts on a coat of white paint over the primer (3 brush strokes)

Day after that, once the paint is dry, the insulation guys come back and re-install the insulation.

Paint shop comes back late that day to paint over the patch-tape for the insulation.

Day after that, the electrical shop shows up and threads on the bracket and starts the cable run.

Once the cable run is done, and is clamped in place on the bracket, the electronics shop shows up to do the cable termination.

Once the cable is terminated, they send another guy down to put a label on the cable.  At each end, and on each side of every bulk-head penetration so it can be traced through compartments on the ship.

Then the electronics shop shows up again and tests the cable (can't test it until the labels are on) at which point it's ready to connect.

The Nav shop then shows up and connects the cable to the piece of nav gear that was just installed.

Then, once that's all done, the ship can, at the end of the work period, go back to the ammo depot and bring all the ammo back onboard that had to be landed so that they could weld that close to the magazine (less than 2 meters.)



OR,

Hire an ISSC, who sends a team of 3 guys over, and it's done in a day, and the planned cable run that would have taken it within 2 meters of a magazine is re-routed with an amendment submitted to the specification.

But....FMF is an efficient tool to maintain the fleet....

Nicely put and the exact reason why I like dealing with them. To them getting a job done quick is better for them and us, whereas FMF likes to drag it out.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Has anyone else noticed That the largest highest capacity shipyard in Canada Had the entire bridge structure for the Resolve built outside the country in Finland thus employing many Finish workers thus exceeding Irving employing foreign workers.

Seriously beginning to wonder if you are on Irving's payroll there, Stoney.

Source please!!!

Mine are internal people at Davie (good friend is in the house). The superstructure was built in their assembly hall, deck by deck fully fitted, then assembled like a cake outside the main assembly chamber until too tall - moved outdoor and assembled in two pieces. To build something like that in Finland then move it to Canada by ship, the bloody transport ship would not have been able to see over the structure from their ship's bridge. It also would not have gone unnoticed anywhere.

 

[suffolkowner]

Seriously beginning to wonder if you are on Irving's payroll there, Stoney.

Source please!!!

Mine are internal people at Davie (good friend is in the house). The superstructure was built in their assembly hall, deck by deck fully fitted, then assembled like a cake outside the main assembly chamber until too tall - moved outdoor and assembled in two pieces. To build something like that in Finland then move it to Canada by ship, the bloody transport ship would not have been able to see over the structure from their ship's bridge. It also would not have gone unnoticed anywhere.

http://navaltoday.com/2017/03/06/canadian-project-resolve-aor-superstructure-to-arrive-from-finland/

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Seems he got you, OGBD...