New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[Kirkhill]

The point on supply chain management is that you don't have to accept the long route.  In the instance that I cited the BC company swapped out the DIN flanges for ASME flanges and bought the valve in Canada for the Manufacturer's Suggest Retail Price with discount.  So $10,000 became $1000.  Of course, in their case they had an incentive to cut out middle men and save money. It was their money.

 

[Kirkhill]

We could do what Dutch do with Damen--build hulls in Romania and ship home for finishing (Aussies did same with Navantia LHD); but for some reason metal-bashing jobs at extortionate cost are deemed essential to  Canadian politicians.

Mark
Ottawa

Mark, that big steel wall looks more impressive in photo-ops than the miles of cabling installed in raceways onboard.

And I believe the Brits have done the same with their tankers - built off shore but returned to Britain for final installation of government supplied equipment like comms and weapons.

 

[chrisf]

The point on supply chain management is that you don't have to accept the long route.  In the instance that I cited the BC company swapped out the DIN flanges for ASME flanges and bought the valve in Canada for the Manufacturer's Suggest Retail Price with discount.  So $10,000 became $1000.  Of course, in their case they had an incentive to cut out middle men and save money. It was their money.

That's not cutting out the middle man, they modified their equipment to accept North American parts.

I deal with the situation regularly, equipment manfuactered in Europe with parts that are standard, common and cheap in Europe, but cost a fortune to buy from a local supplier in north America. The solution is often to modify the equipment to accept North American parts (I've also dealt with a local supplier who will buy and send me an invoice for pretty much anything from any website I send him, with a very reasonable markup... saves a fortune vs buying it from an "official" dealer locally, downside is there's the occasional risk of counterfeit parts)

I understand the point you're trying to get at, but the story isn't relevant to ship building, as the supply chain is much more direct.

 

[Edward Campbell]

The reality is, most of the people working there aren't foreign workers.  I still would argue that it's good to have this industry.  I'd argue the same about Bombardier.

You're on the right track. It is, of course, "good" to have shipyards and aerospace companies: they can, might ~ if they are well managed ~ provide good, steady jobs for Canadians in their communities and they can "anchor" a defence industrial base which ~ although we devoutly hope not ~ might be a necessity, someday.

The problem, and I think it is the biggest problem in Canadian industry, is management ~ this is especially true in some "family firms" like Bombardier and Irving where controlling shareholders still are often unqualified family.

Take a look at Davie: what a HUGE change adult management made in just a short time.\

I will guarantee you, with one iota of fear of contradiction that Stephen Harper, when he was PM, wanted, for purely partisan political reasons to bankroll Bombardier but his most senior civil service advisors said, "No, sir. It's a financial black hole. If they reform their management then, by all means, support them with government money, but not until then ..." Bombardier never reformed and the Conservatives never sent money. The difference between Prime Minister Harper and Justin Trudeau was that the former often (not always) put the country ahead of partisan political advantage, the latter never does that.

When the National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy was developed the "tiger team" of senior civil servants left Davie off the list because they felt that Davie's management was beyond redemption; Davie's private shareholders changed that and now it is Irving that looks third rate ~ because it is a third rate company.

It is generally accepted that Bombardier and Irving cannot, ever, be allowed to fail ~ government (provincial and national) will always step in ~ but that's what we believed about CFB Summerside and Davie and, in the latter case, government pushed it to the very edge.

Yes, we want to build ships and aircraft and electronics and, and, and ... in Canada, using Canadian labour, by and large, and Canadian steel and Canadian plastics. But we should not reward inept management just because it is Canadian or a regional "champion."

 

[Edward Campbell]

We could do what Dutch do with Damen--build hulls in Romania and ship home for finishing (Aussies did same with Navantia LHD); but for some reason metal-bashing jobs at extortionate cost are deemed essential to  Canadian politicians.

Mark
Ottawa

All politicians, everywhere, are frightened nearly to death of the large number of less than well educated your (mostly) men who "need" low skill, high wage, metal bashing (and digging minerals and chopping tress and, and, and ...) jobs. We, in the modern, US led West have, broadly and generally, done a less then sterling job of preparing our young people to succeed in the world ... so we need to "create" jobs for a lot of them. Look at how the US North East (the rust belt) just voted.

 

[jmt18325]

You're on the right track. It is, of course, "good" to have shipyards and aerospace companies: they can, might ~ if they are well managed ~ provide good, steady jobs for Canadians in their communities and they can "anchor" a defence industrial base which ~ although we devoutly hope not ~ might be a necessity, someday.

The problem, and I think it is the biggest problem in Canadian industry, is management ~ this is especially true in some "family firms" like Bombardier and Irving where controlling shareholders still are often unqualified family.

Take a look at Davie: what a HUGE change adult management made in just a short time.\

I will guarantee you, with one iota of fear of contradiction that Stephen Harper, when he was PM, wanted, for purely partisan political reasons to bankroll Bombardier but his most senior civil service advisors said, "No, sir. It's a financial black hole. If they reform their management then, by all means, support them with government money, but not until then ..." Bombardier never reformed and the Conservatives never sent money. The difference between Prime Minister Harper and Justin Trudeau was that the former often (not always) put the country ahead of partisan political advantage, the latter never does that.

When the National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy was developed the "tiger team" of senior civil servants left Davie off the list because they felt that Davie's management was beyond redemption; Davie's private shareholders changed that and now it is Irving that looks third rate ~ because it is a third rate company.

It is generally accepted that Bombardier and Irving cannot, ever, be allowed to fail ~ government (provincial and national) will always step in ~ but that's what we believed about CFB Summerside and Davie and, in the latter case, government pushed it to the very edge.

Yes, we want to build ships and aircraft and electronics and, and, and ... in Canada, using Canadian labour, by and large, and Canadian steel and Canadian plastics. But we should not reward inept management just because it is Canadian or a regional "champion."

Davie wasn't left out - they lost.  Their condition at the time made it that way.  We awarded Irving and Seaspan these projects based on a points system.  They got the most points.  The entire thing was scored and praised by a fairness monitor.  Looking back and wishing things would have been different won't change the way that they were, unfortunately.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

You're on the right track. It is, of course, "good" to have shipyards and aerospace companies: they can, might ~ if they are well managed ~ provide good, steady jobs for Canadians in their communities and they can "anchor" a defence industrial base which ~ although we devoutly hope not ~ might be a necessity, someday.

The problem, and I think it is the biggest problem in Canadian industry, is management ~ this is especially true in some "family firms" like Bombardier and Irving where controlling shareholders still are often unqualified family.

Take a look at Davie: what a HUGE change adult management made in just a short time.\

I will guarantee you, with one iota of fear of contradiction that Stephen Harper, when he was PM, wanted, for purely partisan political reasons to bankroll Bombardier but his most senior civil service advisors said, "No, sir. It's a financial black hole. If they reform their management then, by all means, support them with government money, but not until then ..." Bombardier never reformed and the Conservatives never sent money. The difference between Prime Minister Harper and Justin Trudeau was that the former often (not always) put the country ahead of partisan political advantage, the latter never does that.

When the National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy was developed the "tiger team" of senior civil servants left Davie off the list because they felt that Davie's management was beyond redemption; Davie's private shareholders changed that and now it is Irving that looks third rate ~ because it is a third rate company.

It is generally accepted that Bombardier and Irving cannot, ever, be allowed to fail ~ government (provincial and national) will always step in ~ but that's what we believed about CFB Summerside and Davie and, in the latter case, government pushed it to the very edge.

Yes, we want to build ships and aircraft and electronics and, and, and ... in Canada, using Canadian labour, by and large, and Canadian steel and Canadian plastics. But we should not reward inept management just because it is Canadian or a regional "champion."

I'd argue only Irving Shipbuilding is a third rate company, mostly because Irving doesn't care about it.  Now if we're talking Irving Oil or J.D. Irving Limited, that's where the company actually puts its effort.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Davie wasn't left out - they lost.  Their condition at the time made it that way.  We awarded Irving and Seaspan these projects based on a points system.  They got the most points.  The entire thing was scored and praised by a fairness monitor.  Looking back and wishing things would have been different won't change the way that they were, unfortunately.

On that one jmt, you are talking through your hat on things you are ignorant about.

Davie was NOT IN THE PROCESS at all. This was for one simple reason: At the time of the bidding on the Shipbuilding Strategy, they were under bankruptcy protection, which automatically made them ineligible to participate - so they didn't. Just before the selections were made, but after the biding was closed, they came out of protection with the new owners and tried to bid for the non-combatant portion (the easiest one to quickly write a bid for), but it was not considered as it was deemed too late.

They never really had a bid in, and if they had under the new management, I am willing to bet anything they would have beaten Irving by a hundred miles.

 

[jmt18325]

I remember watching the results live though.  I remember that Davie had fewer points than the other two.  I remember Davie having a bid:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Shipbuilding_Procurement_Strategy

http://thechronicleherald.ca/business/27419-timeline-shipbuilding-procurement-contract

Edit:  I don't remember if they were disqualified or not during the evaluation - what I do remember is that they had the lowest point total of the 3 yards, and would have lost anyway.

 

[MilEME09]

This snuck up two days ago on youtube, Project resolve update.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rwE09aCpZU

flashy, looks like the super structure is all going up.

 

[Karel Doorman]

Seems like Irving wants to get shipbuilders out of Australia(Ozzy workers, [ ) 

(Found this on DT was posted by GF)

    Main Content



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Canadian shipbuilder hopes to poach Aussie talent as SA projects wind down
By political reporter Angelique Donnellan

Updated 16 minutes ago

Media player: "Space" to play, "M" to mute, "left" and "right" to seek.

Video: Irving Shipbuilders are searching for workers. (ABC News)
Map: Osborne 5017

A major Canadian shipbuilder has launched a bold recruitment drive Down Under looking to poach South Australian workers amid the local industry's so-called "valley of death".

In a newspaper advertisement and a social media campaign, Irving Shipbuilders calls on Australian workers to move to Halifax, Nova Scotia, and "North America's most modern shipyard".

Over the next 30 years, Irving said it would be constructing up to 21 modern patrol ships and surface combatants.

"By joining our team of more than 1,500 shipbuilders you can enjoy a dynamic, diverse and family-friendly career with a company dedicated to your success, health, wellness and safety," the company's buildshipsincanada website said.

Premier Jay Weatherill said delays in Federal Government decision-making meant Irving was seizing on a gap in work between the Air Warfare Destroyers, Future Frigates and submarines.
Irving Shipbuilders in Halifax.
Photo: Irving Shipbuilders is offering Aussie workers a relocation package and support if they move to Canada. (Supplied: Irving Shipbuilders)

"It is disappointing that we've had this dithering between Defence contracts and so now we've got this valley of death, where a lot of work is going to be lost down at Techport," Mr Weatherill said.

    "We shouldn't have been dithering about future submarines toying with the idea of sending them to Japan, many years were wasted.

"There is a risk that we'll lose some of our workers, obviously we want to retain as many here as we can," Mr Weatherill said.

A spokesperson for Federal Defence Industry Minister Christopher Pyne said: "Labor's six years of indecision has created this mess".

"It's the Turnbull Coalition Government that has commissioned 54 vessels and is investing $89 billion in continuous shipbuilding, which will create 5,000 direct jobs.

"The Turnbull Government have a plan and we are working with stakeholders across the country to implement it."
The company's pitch includes:

    Travel to Halifax, Nova Scotia, for you and your family
    Immigration support and assistance through to permanent residency
    Assistance integrating into the community
    Buddy program to ease transition into the workforce
    Generous relocation package

ASC at Osborne has been shedding hundreds of employees because work on the Air Warfare Destroyer project is winding down.

On its website, Irving said it was looking for engineers (hull, mechanical and electrical), combat systems engineers and specialists and ironworkers.

"Irving Shipbuilding is proud to provide our workforce with stable, good-paying jobs you can raise a family and build a future on," the website advertisement said.

The company will hold a recruitment session in Adelaide on April 20 as well as in Melbourne and Sydney.
Halifax vs Adelaide

Nova Scotia is a province almost completely surrounded by ocean in Canada's east, and is one of the country's three maritime provinces.
Ice hockey players celebrate a goal.
Photo: Ice hockey is the number one game in town. (Flickr: Doug Kerr)

It has a population of almost 1 million people and its capital is Halifax was "one of the best places to live in Canada".

Any South Australians interested in moving there should pack thermals, as temperatures over winter can drop to -15 degrees Celsius.

Like Adelaide, sport is important in Nova Scotia but any Aussies will need to swap punts for pucks, with ice hockey the top game in town.

Tourism Nova Scotia describes the province as a place where you can "feel your pace fall in sync with the rhythm of the sea, as the clean salt air breathes life into an afternoon".

"Immerse yourself in culture that ranges from traditional to avant-garde, from bagpipes to world-class golf."

Food is described as typically Canadian with an emphasis on local seafood.

Topics: manufacturing, states-and-territories, government-and-politics, federal---state-issues, federal-government, osborne-5017, adelaide-5000, sa

First posted about an hour ago
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http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-07/canadian-shipbuilder-reveals-plan-to-raid-aussie-talent-pool/8426206

 

[suffolkowner]

I remember watching the results live though.  I remember that Davie had fewer points than the other two.  I remember Davie having a bid:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Shipbuilding_Procurement_Strategy

http://thechronicleherald.ca/business/27419-timeline-shipbuilding-procurement-contract

Edit:  I don't remember if they were disqualified or not during the evaluation - what I do remember is that they had the lowest point total of the 3 yards, and would have lost anyway.

I memory is in agreement with yours jmt for whatever that's worth! Again for what it's worth I seem to remember that Davie and Daewoo had an agreement conditional on Davie wining the contract.

If we were a smaller country(geographically) with only one coast all work could have and should have been concentrated at Davie, IMO. But that is not how things work in Canada imagine the uproar if both Seaspan and Irving ere shut out for a Quebec yard.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Considering the political climate in Canada, I always thought the NSPS was the best we could have hoped for and had it been done 15 years ago, we would not be facing the political crisis regarding a failing fleet that we face now.

 

[MilEME09]

Considering the political climate in Canada, I always thought the NSPS was the best we could have hoped for and had it been done 15 years ago, we would not be facing the political crisis regarding a failing fleet that we face now.

Crisis implies people care, most Canadians do not, they seem to care more about election and parliamentary reform these days (which are important issues in my opinion). We will continue to be the red headed step child of the government until something serious happens to embarrass the government publicly. Like if W5 or someone did an in depth investigation of the dilapidated state of our armed forces or something, or god for bid we loose a bird in europe or Iraq.

 

[jmt18325]

Considering the political climate in Canada, I always thought the NSPS was the best we could have hoped for and had it been done 15 years ago, we would not be facing the political crisis regarding a failing fleet that we face now.

Even if it would have been launched by say, Paul Martin, it would have been more successful.  That would have given a 5 year head start.

 

[MilEME09]

Even if it would have been launched by say, Paul Martin, it would have been more successful.  That would have given a 5 year head start.

Technically it was, remember the JSS program? started by the martin government, cancelled by the harper government officially due to cost, and would of delivered it's first ship in 2012/13

 

[Colin Parkinson]

However the JSS was a one off contract for that class and not a overall approach to shipbuilding as I recall?

 

[MilEME09]

However the JSS was a one off contract for that class and not a overall approach to shipbuilding as I recall?

correct, still if it was left alone then the NSPS came along, atleast we would of gotten supply ships. Oh well Davie will be delivering this fall

 

[Colin Parkinson]

For all the doom and gloom, we should keep in mind that 1 CCG ship is almost done, construction on 2 others. 2 AOPs construction is underway and 1 AOR conversion is moving along. By the time Irving and Seaspan are done with the current schedule, replacements will be needed for the 1100 class icebreakers and Kingston Class. 

 

[Kirkhill]

For all the doom and gloom, we should keep in mind that 1 CCG ship is almost done, construction on 2 others. 2 AOPs construction is underway and 1 AOR conversion is moving along. By the time Irving and Seaspan are done with the current schedule, replacements will be needed for the 1100 class icebreakers and Kingston Class.

:goodpost: