New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[jmt18325]

Well, if we bought, say, 3 of these, we could funnel more money to Seaspan for another large CCG icebreaker.  The navy gets its ships sooner, and so does the CCG.  Win, Win.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Davie will easily be able to sell these ships once the Berlins come online.  It's a very good deal for Davie, this is basically one big free "we build affordable AORs" campaign for them. 

 

[MarkOttawa]

jmt18235:

Well, if we bought, say, 3 of these, we could funnel more money to Seaspan for another large CCG icebreaker.  The navy gets its ships sooner, and so does the CCG.  Win, Win.

Indeed, makes excellent sense.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[jmt18325]

jmt18235:

Indeed, makes excellent sense.

Mark
Ottawa

I mean, it's not like our AORs would really need to be used the way we've been using them so far (as warships).  Other navies don't do that. 

 

[MilEME09]

Davie will easily be able to sell these ships once the Berlins come online.  It's a very good deal for Davie, this is basically one big free "we build affordable AORs" campaign for them.

and i bet after building a few their price will come down too, and every potential customer in south America, and the pacific will look at them.

 

[Underway]

You have to consider how they will be used as well though.  Current AOR doctrine means that the Queenstons will be considered "warships" and integral to a task group.

These ships will not be warships and would not be part of a task group in higher risk areas.  However that's not necessarily a bad thing and would certainly combo well with two Queenstons esp for things like domestic ops or aid to civil power.

 

[jmt18325]

You have to consider how they will be used as well though.  Current AOR doctrine means that the Queenstons will be considered "warships" and integral to a task group.

Let's allow the warships to do the...warshipping.  With say, 3 of these, and a combatant force of 12 more capable combatants (a jack of all trades type) we could have a more flexible, responsive force, IMO. 

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

You have to consider how they will be used as well though.  Current AOR doctrine means that the Queenstons will be considered "warships" and integral to a task group.

These ships will not be warships and would not be part of a task group in higher risk areas.  However that's not necessarily a bad thing and would certainly combo well with two Queenstons esp for things like domestic ops or aid to civil power.

:goodpost:

You also need to consider the fact that if we were to all of a sudden scrap the Queenston Class we would need to restart the procurement process from scratch.  These ships aren't meant to be permanent, they are a stopgap measure and wouldn't meet the SOR for the project.  You can't just buy whatever the heck you feel like when you feel like it, you think we all would know this by now.  The government has a plan, it's not perfect but at least it's there, lets at least try and follow it through for once.

 

[Harrigan]

You have to consider how they will be used as well though.  Current AOR doctrine means that the Queenstons will be considered "warships" and integral to a task group.

These ships will not be warships and would not be part of a task group in higher risk areas.  However that's not necessarily a bad thing and would certainly combo well with two Queenstons esp for things like domestic ops or aid to civil power.

Not sure what the doctrines states now, but in 1982 the RN had many RFA and civilian ships well into the combat zone, including in San Carlos Water.  Two of them, ATLANTIC CONVEYOR and RFA SIR GALAHAD, did not return.

Harrigan

 

[George Wallace]

Not sure what the doctrines states now, but in 1982 the RN had many RFA and civilian ships well into the combat zone, including in San Carlos Water.  Two of them, ATLANTIC CONVEYOR and RFA SIR GALAHAD, did not return.

Harrigan

Pretty much my feeling as well.  Modern warfare, on land or at sea, has fairly well done away with any "safe zones" well removed from the fight.  Just think of the Battle of the Atlantic in WW II and you will find that technology leaves all shipping at risk.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Not to mention our own Merchant Cruisers

 

[Underway]

This whole discussion has me ruminating on the quote "amateurs think of tactics while professionals think of logistics" in relation to AORs and availability.  Seems like we are really still just amateurs in many ways....

 

[MarkOttawa]

One suspects there is a word missing in the italicized bit below:

At the beginning of August, the Government of Canada gave Davie Shipbuilding permission to advance with Project Resolve, an initiative to pursue at-sea support.

The latest news reports that Davie has bought the Asterix, a 1,702-teu boxship.

In the past, Asterix belonged to Capital Ship Management, an Evangelos Marinakis-controlled company. Now, Davie will own the vessel through Project Resolve Inc. and charter it out to the Royal Navy [emphasis added].

The transaction cost Davies somewhere around $20 million – but the plans don’t stop there. The word’s out that Davie will convert the ship into a complete naval vessel, capable of carrying two helicopters and refueling moving warships.

To complete the transformation, the Asterix’s container guides will be replaced with 10,000 tonnes worth of fuel tanks. As a result, the finished product should have the ship measure in at 40-teu.

Estimates say this conversion will cost upwards of $350 million.

It’s a costly endeavor, but Davie believes the Capital ship has a promising foundation. With cruising speeds of 20.5 knots and a versatile hull shape and design, the Asterix has huge potential...
http://www.vanguardcanada.com/2015/08/11/davie-to-give-capital-ship-a-royal-makeover/

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Well to be blunt we did leave it up to the "Professionals" (as in senior leaders management of DND) who knowingly ran our AOR's into the ground and did not have a replacement plan. So it's a bit ripe for them to tell the amateurs what to do.  8)

The Mistrals with leased helicopters and landing craft could resupply the other ships with everything but fuel and provide a useful hanger space to keep the SeaKings (and spare aircraft) running till replaced with fully kitted Cyclones for the ASW role. We would still struggle on the Oiler side and leasing one seems to be the only option unless our betters bite the political bullet and build one/two overseas. 

 

[Underway]

Well to be blunt we did leave it up to the "Professionals" (as in senior leaders management of DND) who knowingly ran our AOR's into the ground and did not have a replacement plan. So it's a bit ripe for them to tell the amateurs what to do.

To be fair Gen Hillier when he was CDS often commented about how his biggest challenge was getting the navy recapitalized especially the AOR's.  Him and RAdm Buck got along like a house on fire and really tried to get the navy's equipment sorted out.  Unfortunately there were successive minority gov'ts in at the time and getting all party support for ships in the middle of a land war in asia was difficult to say the least. 

Even in 2009 when I met the MND in Afghanistan and asked him why the Conservatives were not cleverly using the "Economic Action Plan" to drive forward with a ship procurement strategy he actually put his arm around my shoulders, looked around in a conspiratorial way to ensure no one else could hear and said ".... it's because Davie went bankrupt and f****d the whole thing up!" (exact quote).

Perfect storm of recapitalization of strategic airlift, tanks, etc... with economic downturn and  minority gov'ts killed what were probably the first two windows of opportunity.  Still no excuses.  If they wanted to get it done, they would have spend political capital on it.

 

[jollyjacktar]

My present boss was involved in some of that in the later stages and has made comments on that fiasco and this project.  All I will say is there were many mistakes and miscommunications and this new endeavour may well be a big problem for several very good logical reasons.

 

[Baz]

The Mistrals with leased helicopters and landing craft could resupply the other ships with everything but fuel and provide a useful hanger space to keep the SeaKings (and spare aircraft) running till replaced with fully kitted Cyclones for the ASW role. We would still struggle on the Oiler side and leasing one seems to be the only option unless our betters bite the political bullet and build one/two overseas.

You don't think there is any potential for a starboard side RAS point?  It wouldn't make it an AOR but we could keep the skill alive.

I'm not sure we even start off with leased helps and landing craft... I still think we use them as giant training ships for now...

 

[Seyek]

For those of who don't really know anything on the topic, how exactly do the Queenstons compare to the Asterix conversion?

 

[Lumber]

For those of who don't really know anything on the topic, how exactly do the Queenstons compare to the Asterix conversion?

Queenstons will be full milspec.

 

[STONEY]

The Queenstons will also be double hulled tankers as reqd by international law while the others are container ship conversions which may not meet the new laws and thus banned from many world ports.
Most of the worlds navys are getting rid of there single hulled AORs because of this. IE the RN and the fairly new AORs.