• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

  • Thread starter Thread starter GAP
  • Start date Start date
Underway said:
.....

Some of the challenges that could change who gets chosen are an ability to operate a Cyclone (very large by NATO standard ASW helo) in high sea states with a hauldown system.  This may eliminate some versions of ships that can't properly accommodate our helo's, not just land.  Of all the Canadian ways of doing things big ASW helos are perhaps the most obvious as I think almost all other navies work with small helo's on "escorts".  No other ship design out there I can think of has this as a integral part of its design.

......

I took a look at the vessels under discussion here and I am not convinced that we are alone in operating large helicopters on "small" ships anymore.

First of all ships in the 6000 tonne range are not small ships.  The first helicopter Assiniboine (DDH234) apparently only displaced half of that, deep.

All of the vessels under discussion are in that range:

Absolon - 6300
Huitfeldt - 5800
Damen XO 137 - 5600
Type 26 - 6000
FREMM - 6000
Sachsen - 5800
7 Provincien - 6050
F100 - 6391
Nansen - 5290

The Type 45 apparently displaces 8000 tonnes

Secondly, wrt the helicopters, the following vessels are given as being able to land and launch CH-(1)47 Chinooks:

Absolon
Huitfeldt
Damen XO
Type 26.

The design standard helicopters embarked on board and carried in the hangars are:

EH/AW-101 Merlin - 14.6 T AUW - Absolon, Huitfeldt, Type 45, Type 26.

NH-90 - 10.6 T AUW - FREMM, Sachsen, 7 Provincien, Nansen.

The F100 carries a single SH-60.

Our CH-148 is intended to have an All Up Weight of 12 Tonnes according to Sikorsky.

The existing CH-124 Sea King weighs in at 9.3 Tonnes AUW. 

To my eye, any of the above designs could accomodate the CH-148 Cyclone.

Our CSC specification should probably include a CH-147/MV22 compatible flight deck. The ability to move between the flex deck and the flight deck by elevator, even for something like the CH-146 would be nice as well.




 
Ah right I completely forgot that the Merlin was a EH 101.  I stand corrected.  However there is a difference between being able to land and accommodate.  By accommodate I mean first line maintainance, hanger storage and everything needed for a six month tour.  The current frigate design was to accommodate Merlins, not seakings so I imagine it's roomier than originally intended in the hanger.

If all those types can do that with minimal mods then great, more options.  I'm fairly confident that CH-147 capability would be a like to have not a must have.  If it gets in the way it's gonna be cut.  Can the Berlins land a Chinook?

As for possible designs I think that the Damen XO and T26 are long shots, depending on the bids as they are not proven designs.  For some reason I don't like FREMM, I can't put my finger on why I just don't.  I really think it's going to come down to a competition between the Dutch, German and Danish ships. 


 
My other big area of prioirtization would be that the CSC should be designed with a capacity to concurrently deploy multiple UUV's as part of its ASW suite.
 
Why would that be Cdn Blackshirt?

We already used those: They are called torpedoes!

Seriously, there are currently no useful UUV for ASW. It may come but not yet. But even if it did, the question remains would it give us any prosecution advantage over our current "tails - helicopter" ASW combination. if it does not, then there is no point.

Also, what is this fascination in these pages with being able to land a Chinook on our ships ???

It is an army asset that has no naval purpose. If we had phibs, it would be fine for them, but otherwise, they make no sense on a frigate/destroyer/AOR. If we need to do surface surveillance, gunship support or boarding team insertions from the CSC's the Sea Kings, and I am sure the Cyclone will, have proven themselves up to the task.

Also, what is a proven design?

Absalon, Huitfeldt, Damen XO, Type 26, FREMM, Sachsen, Zeven Provincien, F100, or Nansen: None of these are proven designs because we have not had a war where any of their alleged capacities have been tested. How they would work is all speculation as the last time modern destroyers/frigates design were tested was the Falkland war.

The mere fact that a design team from Europe, with recent construction successes, will be selected to come up with a CSC design does not in any way mean that they would reuse what they did in the past. Any Canadian requirement inputed in the picture means it will be a new design altogether (this is not like buying trucks [something the Cdn military seems bad at also] where you say I want to buy dump trucks but first I decide if I want an International, a Mack or a Peterbilt).

At best, having a specific European team will mean that  certain design philosophies will be found in the final product, as was the case for the British Type 45 destroyers, for instance, where the work done with the Horizon Frigate team of continental Europe before they got out of the project influenced the design philosophy and the UK ended up with a ship radically different in design than its usual predecessor all conceived in England only.
 
Underway said:
This is right in the F125, Italian FREMM, Horizon Class, range.  The stock T26 is to light for what we want to do
The T26 has seen some quite substantial changes to its structural design since the 6000 tonnes figure was put on BAE's website, and displacement as high as 8000 tonnes full load has been hinted at by some RN insiders.


The upcoming new NATO standard for damage control run through Loyds of London for insurance, or at least the lessons learned from PRO, OTTAWA, etc..  Someone earlier in this thread (or another on here, can't remember where) I believe posted info on this, how ship design is now looking more at how you attack a fire, routes, fitted systems working with attack teams and ensuring there is a larger standard for insurance purposes and so on.  None of the current ship designs have this taken into account as the standard hasn't been promulgated yet. .

Im actually fairly certain they have , at least to some extent. The idea is hardly new , and while i can only speak for the Absalon/ Iver Huitfeldt classes , i know that the high degree of automation on these vessels and their relatively small crewsize, meant that their designers had to think about and incorporate the features you mention into their construction. And i think the same thing goes for pretty much all modern combat vessels that are designed to operate with much reduced crews , compared to older ships.



The main sensor system will have a large influence on the design for sure.  A SMART L combined with an APAR system is most likely, I certainly don't see a SAMPSON radar like the T45.  Its a proven combination, mature enough tech and in use with a number of NATO allies and not limited by ITAR issues.  What designs already have or can easily be modified for this combination? The missile loadout is also very dependant on the sensor system.  APAR, SMART-L is proven to work with SM2, ESSM combo.

Agreed, APAR/SMART-L is a no-brainer, especially in their latest versions. With SMART-L EWC and a future APAR Mk2 taking advantage of the new GaN based T/R modules, you're getting 90% of the capability of AMDR but at 1/3 the cost.


Open architeture is going to be very important.  Even SCSC wrote about the possibility of directed energy weapons, and by the time the CSC steel is being cut they might be coming online for real, instead of trials and one offs

Good point......For this reason i also think that high voltage 4-6 KV power generation systems, like the Zumwalts IPS (Integrated Power System) are going to be the future, to allow enough power for increasingly powerfull sensors and weapons like lasers and railguns.
 
Kirkhill said:
All of the vessels under discussion are in that range:
Absolon - 6300..
Huitfeldt - 5800

Minor corrections,.....Absalon is now classified as being 6645 tonnes FL, while the Huitfeldts is 6649 tonnes FL (5850 t is light ship displacement.) But even without their full complement of weapons and missiles they are already more than 6000 tonnes standard, so an increase in their nominal FL displacement is likely in the near future.

Type 26 - 6000

As mentioned earlier, the T26 has experienced significant growth and is almost certainly going to be a +7000 tonnes warship.





 
Most interesting All.

OGBD - My personal fascination with adding the Chinook to the capabilities is in the interest of Jointery. 

If the new vessels are going to have a Flex Deck (and that would be the primary driver, in my layman's view, of a heavier vessel) then that Flex Deck might as well serve the needs of the Army as well as Health Services, CJOC and CanSOFCOM.  The Air Force already have their own chunk of the ship.  The Chinook is in the Air Force's inventory and has twice the lifting capacity and twice the range of CH-148/124.

The addition the ability to land, refuel and launch a Chinook would allow for any of the following:

Domestically

The vessels can become mobile FRPs that extend the radius of action of the Chinooks

Internationally

The Chinooks, after they are flown into theater by the CC-177s to a staging ground like Cyprus, for example, could then be used to move heavier weapons/supplies/systems from Canada, via Cyprus, directly to vessels patrolling. The navy would now be served by flying 10 tonne trucks instead of flying 4 tonne trucks And those trucks would have twice the radius of the CH-148.  You could now see a more significant capability to modify the loadout of your ships in a more timely fashion to respond to a change in your threat picture. 

It would also permit the timely dispatch of DART and CanSOFCOM assets to a wider area more rapidly while giving them a secure base at sea from which to operate.

It would also permit lightly equipped troops to be supported by heavier weaponry than could be supported by the CH-148 alone.  That has significant implications for the Artillery - both in Fire Support and Air Defence - which in turn is important to the navy because the sooner those assets are ashore the sooner the navy can retire from the shore line to blue water.

Finally it would mean that larger numbers of light troops could be staged forward at a time closer to H-Hour meaning that they do not have to live with you all the way from Halifax to the Form Up Point.  They can leave you in peace until you get to the FUP, fly onboard and concentrate their numbers for a couple of days in multiple lifts to multiple ships, marry up with their gear and then assault forward using all available and appropriate lift assets in the area (to include CH-147s, CH-148s and LCVPs).  This allows Canada to deploy "cheap" light infantry by helicopter rather than "expensive" paratroopers.

And the real value for both sides in this dispute (the army and the navy) is that they only have to put up with each other for a week or so rather than a couple of months.

Hence my fascination with the Chinook capability -  a fascination that I believe that I share with the RN, the Danes and the Dutch all of whom have written the Chinook into their specs.

Note, I am not suggesting building hangars for the Chinooks, merely restressing the deck to handle 20 tonnes (the Chinook) landing on 4 wheels rather than 12 tonnes (the CH-148) landing on 3 wheels.  And if (as is the case with the AOPS) the planning were to incorporate the accomodation of the Cormorant then the requirement would be for 15 tonnes landing on 3 wheels.  I believe the point loading for the Cormorant and the Chinook would be similar.

In addition, the increased use of UAVs is also driving the provision of larger flight decks to permit concurrent manned and unmanned vehicle use.  So you might as well plan to be able to land a Chinook as well as being able to operate a CH-148 and a ScanEagle at the same time from the same deck.

The Chinook would also allow you to beef up your crews, when and as necessary, by adding specialist elements like your standing Enhanced Naval Boarding Parties or, perhaps, a shore raiding capability.



 
Oh! Kirkhill, Kirkhill, Kirkhill.

I don't even know where to start!

Here goes (I'll try).

Kirkhill said:
Most interesting All.

OGBD - My personal fascination with adding the Chinook to the capabilities is in the interest of Jointery.

That confirms my view of "joint" in Canada, which IMO has become a code word for the Army to tell the other two elements to support it (not the other way around however). Nonetheless, as I look at the "scenarios" you list below, I don't even find in there a single one that the Army would remotely like to implement. 

If the new vessels are going to have a Flex Deck (and that would be the primary driver, in my layman's view, of a heavier vessel) then that Flex Deck might as well serve the needs of the Army as well as Health Services, CJOC and CanSOFCOM.  The Air Force already have their own chunk of the ship.  The Chinook is in the Air Force's inventory and has twice the lifting capacity and twice the range of CH-148/124.

They are not going to have a Flex deck, and the primary driver for heavier vessels is a combination of the fact that we now lob missiles at one another and they are voluminous - thus to carry more you need volume. This is combined with the fact that in a modern warship, building larger ships with its attendant stability, improved living standards, survivability and comfort of ride is cheap. The CSCs are not there to serve the needs of the Army (which other than phibs, has no need of ships). Finally, the "Air Force" does not own "chunks" of the ships. The Air Force, as a result of unification, took over the operation of the NAVAL assets that are shipborne helicopters from the Navy and is running them FOR THE NAVY. They remain NAVAL assets and the Air Force personnel that run them ARE part of the ship.

The addition the ability to land, refuel and launch a Chinook would allow for any of the following:

Domestically

The vessels can become mobile FRPs that extend the radius of action of the Chinooks

So, you are proposing that Chinooks employed domestically in Canada fly out from continental Canada over the Atlantic or the Pacific to then fly back into Canada? How does that extend their range? If it is the Arctic you have in mind, the CSCs are not intended to operate there - the AOPS are and they can support landing a Chinook.

Internationally

The Chinooks, after they are flown into theater by the CC-177s to a staging ground like Cyprus, for example, could then be used to move heavier weapons/supplies/systems from Canada, via Cyprus, directly to vessels patrolling. The navy would now be served by flying 10 tonne trucks instead of flying 4 tonne trucks And those trucks would have twice the radius of the CH-148.  You could now see a more significant capability to modify the loadout of your ships in a more timely fashion to respond to a change in your threat picture.

I can't see any of that happening. First of all, the shipborne helicopters are NOT trucks - don't ever insult them like that if you want to live :) , they are an integral weapon system of the ship. Second, ships already carry ALL their weapons systems with themselves, they don't need extra guns or missile launchers or torpedo tubes flown in. As for their supplies being delivered directly to vessels patrolling, we already do that: It's called an AOR and it is damn more efficient at it than a mere "10 tonnes" truck. Finally, we cannot "modify our loadout" at sea. Ship's don't do that save in harbour. I remember discussing the handling equipment required for torpedoes in these forums earlier, and an Army CWO saying that for a 700 pound torpedoes he would merely use about ten of his men and handle it by hand, why not do the same. I had to explain that the difference is doing it on a deck pitching and rolling 10-15 degrees each way, going through tight compartments and turns that cannot accommodate the ten people at the time and so forth. He understood.

It would also permit the timely dispatch of DART and CanSOFCOM assets to a wider area more rapidly while giving them a secure base at sea from which to operate.

DART has a hard time getting itself somewhere using C-17's. What makes you think they would want to get themselves to an intermediate point, then split into tiny little pieces to be "staged out" a few dozen at a time and with one or two piece of gear at the time, to be then re-staged out from the same ship? If it could be done at all: Where would we put their equipment on a combatant vessel? It's not like they are cargo ships. Besides, DART is not a combat unit going into a war zone: they go into countries that have had a disaster and asks for them - so they just fly in country directly. As for CanSOFCOM, they have their own flying equipment and, last I checked, they did not include Chinooks.

It would also permit lightly equipped troops to be supported by heavier weaponry than could be supported by the CH-148 alone.  That has significant implications for the Artillery - both in Fire Support and Air Defence - which in turn is important to the navy because the sooner those assets are ashore the sooner the navy can retire from the shore line to blue water.

You are looking for phibs again. There is, and will not be, room onboard the CSC's for heavy weapons of the Army. Therefore, we will not need to disembark them, thus it is of no importance to the Navy. I would like to remind everyone here again that the "SC" in CSC stands for Surface Combatant. They are not support, not amphibious, not patrol, nor aircraft carriers. They are for destroyer/frigates style of operation.

Finally it would mean that larger numbers of light troops could be staged forward at a time closer to H-Hour meaning that they do not have to live with you all the way from Halifax to the Form Up Point.  They can leave you in peace until you get to the FUP, fly onboard and concentrate their numbers for a couple of days in multiple lifts to multiple ships, marry up with their gear and then assault forward using all available and appropriate lift assets in the area (to include CH-147s, CH-148s and LCVPs).  This allows Canada to deploy "cheap" light infantry by helicopter rather than "expensive" paratroopers.

No it does not allow that. You are still looking for a phib. Would you like to "land" these light infantry one load of thirty at a time and see them massacred waiting for the next group? Phibs and other large deck carriers can operate and launch multiple helicopters and landing crafts simultaneously for mass effect. CSC's can't. You can only have ONE air frame on deck either landing, taking off, or being resupplied/readied for flight. What you propose is that, over say 24 hours, you would build up your force onboard a CSC (say to 180 soldiers -even though where you you would accommodate them is beyond me) while at the FUP (which I assume means Form Up Point -  not a naval term) and then a few days later, at your destination, similarly send them out one helicopter load at the time and one Rhib boatload at a time. WHY would you want such an insignificant capability?

And the real value for both sides in this dispute (the army and the navy) is that they only have to put up with each other for a week or so rather than a couple of months.

We have nothing against the Army. They are welcome onboard anytime they want.

Hence my fascination with the Chinook capability -  a fascination that I believe that I share with the RN, the Danes and the Dutch all of whom have written the Chinook into their specs.

I don't believe the Danes have Chinooks into their "specs", even though the Absalon class can handle one landing there if need be. As for the other two nations you mention: their combat vessels (destroyers/frigates) are capable of supporting the landing of  Chinooks, for emergency landing purposes, as result of the fact that they both have amphibious forces that operate such helicopters. We don't, so we don't need to.

Note, I am not suggesting building hangars for the Chinooks, merely restressing the deck to handle 20 tonnes (the Chinook) landing on 4 wheels rather than 12 tonnes (the CH-148) landing on 3 wheels.  And if (as is the case with the AOPS) the planning were to incorporate the accomodation of the Cormorant then the requirement would be for 15 tonnes landing on 3 wheels.  I believe the point loading for the Cormorant and the Chinook would be similar.

In addition, the increased use of UAVs is also driving the provision of larger flight decks to permit concurrent manned and unmanned vehicle use.  So you might as well plan to be able to land a Chinook as well as being able to operate a CH-148 and a ScanEagle at the same time from the same deck.

I don't even know where you see nations increasing size of their flight decks on their destroyers/frigates other than for those who now want to operate larger helicopters like Merlins or NH90's where they used small helicopters before. There is no race to make decks on frigates/destroyers larger for the purpose of operating multiple air assets at the same time. In fact, on such combatant ships, the rule is and remains that you operate ONE and only ONE air asset on the flight deck at a time. You can carry more than one, but you only have one on deck at a time.

The Chinook would also allow you to beef up your crews, when and as necessary, by adding specialist elements like your standing Enhanced Naval Boarding Parties or, perhaps, a shore raiding capability.

I can already do that, for the very limited number of extra crew I may want from time to time, with my own air assets. Besides, my understanding is that the combat radius of a Chinook is somewhere around 500 Km. Would you want me to build a whole class of ships with Chinook capability on the extremely remote chance that wherever I happen to be operating on the world's ocean, or even way off along Canada's coasts, I miraculously would happen to be within range of one of Canada's 15 Chinooks to deliver these people to me? I would rather rely on my making into a friendly port nearby or cycling these extra seamen through a nearby US Carrier group. Finally, we have been shore raiding in the Navy since the days of the Phoenicians - we don't need beefing up to do it :) .
 
Luvverly OGBD  ;)

We get to disagree on virtually every point.

Can I summarize?

We don't want no stinking pongos in our ships!  Despite your invitation to come aboard there seems to be a distinct lack of bunks and tables in the mess.
 
You misunderstand me:

We love pongos, just not on a combat ships.

If we get phibs, you guys will be the first we invite onboard. You can have all the bunks and tables you want then - just not cheap booze anymore … sadly.
 
OGBD -

All I am asking is that you build more hulls, of the same shape, size and style as your "combat" ships, and supply them with the same 14 man crew that is the minimum for the Absalons and leave enough space to plug in whatever "combat" systems you wish to add at a later date - or according to mission.

Helicopter drivers are truck drivers.  You are ferry drivers.  Both of you, your first mission is to carry as primary cargo the Canadian Flag wherever your government demands it .  Your second mission is to carry whatever power your government sees fit to project - and that can be bullets, torpedoes, missiles or soldiers. 

Every capital ship currently under consideration is leaving some space for accomodating at least a platoon of passengers and mission bay (if you don't like flex deck) to handle everything from trucks to LCVPs to ROVs and Heavy Torpedoes.

As to my 14 man crew claim....


See below
 
My error the actual quote is:

An important cost driver is crew, inspired by Maersk. For example, an ultralarge
containership can be operated by 14 crew members. The Danish frigates can be operated by
20 crew members.

This link http://forsvaret.dk/MST/eng/International/SNMG/PublishingImages/SNMG-1%20press%20ABSL.pdf describes that actual crew breakdown as follows:

- Operations division:
6 officers, 4 PO, 21 ratings

- Logistics division:
2 officers, 4 PO, 24 ratings

- Weapons- and Electronics
division:
2 officers, 3 PO, 12 ratings

- Technical Division:
4 officers, 1 PO, 13 ratings

Presumably the minimum crew is the Technical Division plus a CO and either an XO or Bosun from the Operations Division.
 
Kirkhill said:
My error the actual quote is:

This link http://forsvaret.dk/MST/eng/International/SNMG/PublishingImages/SNMG-1%20press%20ABSL.pdf describes that actual crew breakdown as follows:

- Operations division:
6 officers, 4 PO, 21 ratings

- Logistics division:
2 officers, 4 PO, 24 ratings

- Weapons- and Electronics
division:
2 officers, 3 PO, 12 ratings

- Technical Division:
4 officers, 1 PO, 13 ratings

Presumably the minimum crew is the Technical Division plus a CO and either an XO or Bosun from the Operations Division.

One other point I would make is the ongoing US interest in generating platforms of all sizes from which helicopters can operate.

In addition to the traditional ones they are adding HSVs, LCSs and making their Cargo Fleet more useful by adding the MLPs.

As well they have added the Cragside - a converted RoRo - for special operations support.

I wonder if they couldn't apply the flexible concept to the JSS ships as well and leave the outside the same but gut the innards and fill it full of parking space.
 
Kirkhill said:
One other point I would make is the ongoing US interest in generating platforms of all sizes from which helicopters can operate.

In addition to the traditional ones they are adding HSVs, LCSs and making their Cargo Fleet more useful by adding the MLPs.

As well they have added the Cragside - a converted RoRo - for special operations support.

I wonder if they couldn't apply the flexible concept to the JSS ships as well and leave the outside the same but gut the innards and fill it full of parking space.

We wasted 10 bloody years chasing that STUPID ALSC idea and we still don't have a replacement for our AOR's. If we would have just built an AOR back in 2002 we maybe could have been in a better position to take the Mistrals if they are actually up for sale. Instead we are still wallowing about the halls of Ottawa scrapping the money to build a ship we really really need.
There are days that I curse the former CDS who opened a door to an idea (the big honking ship) that nobody else in the world was contemplating. The RCN walked right through that door and then got pole axed by the real world waiting on the other side.
 
Kirkhill said:
OGBD -

All I am asking is that you build more hulls, of the same shape, size and style as your "combat" ships, and supply them with the same 14 man crew that is the minimum for the Absalons and leave enough space to plug in whatever "combat" systems you wish to add at a later date - or according to mission.

Helicopter drivers are truck drivers.  You are ferry drivers.  Both of you, your first mission is to carry as primary cargo the Canadian Flag wherever your government demands it .  Your second mission is to carry whatever power your government sees fit to project - and that can be bullets, torpedoes, missiles or soldiers. 

Every capital ship currently under consideration is leaving some space for accomodating at least a platoon of passengers and mission bay (if you don't like flex deck) to handle everything from trucks to LCVPs to ROVs and Heavy Torpedoes.

As to my 14 man crew claim....


See below

So, as I stated, you agree that you are talking about"phibs", which is what the Absalon are in miniature, and that you want them as supplementary to the CSC. That' is fine, but don't call them CSC's and don't reduce the number of CSC's to accommodate that purchase. BTW, the fact that the Danes decided for their own purpose to use a ship that is close to the Iver Huitfled as "command and support ships", but are in fact mini-phibs, does not mean that we in Canada would have any advantage in going the same route: It all depends what you want to do with the ships that would be "command and support".

BTW, them's fighting words to call me a ferry driver.

I think this is where we seem to have a big disconnect in this forum between seamen and the other element(s?). You seem to think that ships are purchased the same way Air or Army equipment is: Look at the "market" and buy here a C-17, there a M777, here again a Leopard II, etc.

Ships, even of a same class and using modern modular methods, remain fundamentally single build items: You build them one by one from a set of plans and even then there are discrepancies from ship to ship in the same class. But more than that: there is no "assembly line" going on producing them so you get them as you order. You speak of the Damen XO: It does not exist. It's a glossy magazine from a shipyard trying to attract business so they can THEN and only THEN develop the plans and build one for whoever may have wanted it. That is fine for countries (and there are many - especially in South America, Asia and the Arab world) that actually don't know anything and in particular don't know what they need, and do buy on presentations like that.

In Canada, we know exactly what we want our ship's to be able to do and so, we spec it out precisely. As a result, anything that is proposed/presented for consideration is by necessity a product that does not exist yet and is a different ship than anyone else's.

 
FSTO said:
We wasted 10 bloody years chasing that STUPID ALSC idea and we still don't have a replacement for our AOR's. If we would have just built an AOR back in 2002 we maybe could have been in a better position to take the Mistrals if they are actually up for sale. Instead we are still wallowing about the halls of Ottawa scrapping the money to build a ship we really really need.
There are days that I curse the former CDS who opened a door to an idea (the big honking ship) that nobody else in the world was contemplating. The RCN walked right through that door and then got pole axed by the real world waiting on the other side.

:goodpost: +1
 
FSTO said:
We wasted 10 bloody years chasing that STUPID ALSC idea and we still don't have a replacement for our AOR's. If we would have just built an AOR back in 2002 we maybe could have been in a better position to take the Mistrals if they are actually up for sale. Instead we are still wallowing about the halls of Ottawa scrapping the money to build a ship we really really need.
There are days that I curse the former CDS who opened a door to an idea (the big honking ship) that nobody else in the world was contemplating. The RCN walked right through that door and then got pole axed by the real world waiting on the other side.

No arguments...

But the government does benefit from being able to deploy soldiers (and medics) broadly in a timely fashion.  That is why I have become disenchanted with the Big Honking Ship plan and am liking what I see in the Absolon / Huitfeldt , Damen XO, Black Swan / Global Corvette / Type 26 /Type 45 solutions.  All of them are predicated on flexibility (and have given up on trying to outrun torpedoes and missiles - countering them is left up to the Weapons Division).

Even the LCS/HSV are in keeping with the MaxFlex notion - even if the LCS may have been a step too far in the wrong direction.

The Little Ships are everywhere.  The Big Honking Ships are never where they are needed.

One point in OGBD's post I would like to respond to:

In Domestic service, as you move north up the east coast you start to run out of useful refuelling points.  A CSC on patrol just at the 12 mile limit could allow the Chinook to leapfrog further north to an AOPS or jump a thousand kilometers inland to another refuelling point or operate on an extended period, as in the case of a disaster, at a point up to 500 km away.

I admit that on the West Coast no such capability is likely required.
 
If we use the about 600 km range for "transit", you can jump from St. Johns to Goose Bay, from there to Kuujjuaq (same distance, and then up to Iqaluit if that's your destination. For transit east from Kuujjuaq, you can go either through Quaktak or Ivujivik and there on to Coral Harbour or Cape Dorset and points west.

A frigate would have little likelihood of finding itself points north of St. Johns, and even less for finding itself north of Goose Bay.  Getting out there from around Halifax with a frigate to accommodate the transit of a helicopter would take a couple of days, at the least, operating at near full speed in Iceberg infested waters. Thus you cannot count on frigates/CSC's being there.

You cannot plan capabilities into vessels or military systems (any of them) on the near zero possibility that this capability might be found usefull once in a hundred years. 
 
Kirkhill said:
In Domestic service, as you move north up the east coast you start to run out of useful refuelling points.  A CSC on patrol just at the 12 mile limit could allow the Chinook to leapfrog further north to an AOPS or jump a thousand kilometers inland to another refuelling point or operate on an extended period, as in the case of a disaster, at a point up to 500 km away.

I admit that on the West Coast no such capability is likely required.

Why would you want to self-deploy Chinooks to the Eastern Arctic? I'm not tracking. If you need rotary wing aircraft up there for an operation, why aren't you just flying them in by C-17 or C-130, like we already do when we deploy Griffons to Ellesmere Island?
 
Back
Top