New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[Edward Campbell]

I'm in the Navy.

I've pretty much given up hope of actually seeing new ships anytime this decade.

Looking at how busy ISI is with the FELEX upgrade, and seeing how (in my opinion) they seem to be over their heads on it...well...I'm in no rush to see whatever unmitigated disaster it will be that they pull out of their hat when they actually build a major surface combatant vessel from the keel up.

JUST MY OPINION.

I don't think I'll sail on one in my career.

NS

I agree with you, I'm not sure that the government is really committed to our national defence ... I am sure that it is fully committed to a balanced budget in 2015 and that involves starving DND.

That's why I'm so concerned with the fate of the MCDVs.

 

[Navy_Pete]

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/10/11/shipbuilding-scheduling-conflict-means-taxpayers-on-the-hook-for-an-extra-55-million/
....
Despite going with the new resupply ships first, officials also confirmed that the navy’s existing resupply vessels, HMCS Protecteur and Preserver, will be retired around 2017 — two years before their replacements are ready.
...

Both ships are due for refits around that time in any case, so they would be taken out of service for almost two years each anyway in 2015/2016.

That's assuming they don't retire themselves first; we've now exhausted ebay for parts.

 

[jollyjacktar]

I'm in the Navy.

I've pretty much given up hope of actually seeing new ships anytime this decade.

Looking at how busy ISI is with the FELEX upgrade, and seeing how (in my opinion) they seem to be over their heads on it...well...I'm in no rush to see whatever unmitigated disaster it will be that they pull out of their hat when they actually build a major surface combatant vessel from the keel up.

JUST MY OPINION.

I don't think I'll sail on one in my career.

NS

:ditto:

Quite frankly, I'm not too keen to sail on any new ships they might build at any rate.  Their work is second rate at best.

 

[Kirkhill]

JJT:

You may have an alternative after all - Davie is making an effort to rise from the dead.

Babcock International and Chantier Davie Canada Inc Enter Teaming Agreement


(Source: Babcock International; issued Oct. 16, 2013)
 


Babcock Canada Inc, part of Babcock International Group, has signed a five year teaming agreement with Chantier Davie Canada Inc.

The teaming agreement will see the two companies working together on future maritime support activities within Canada, exploiting the formidable joint skills of the two companies.

Davie, the largest and highest capacity shipyard in Canada, will contribute shipbuilding and repair facilities and related expertise, while Babcock will provide its marine engineering expertise and experience in managing federal government contracts as well as its group expertise as one of the world’s leading naval solutions providers. The team will initially concentrate on opportunities for the Canadian Coast Guard.

Babcock Canada President Mark Dixon stated: “This is a significant milestone in Babcock’s strategy for expanding its programmes within Canada and we look forward to working with Davie to develop that goal and to demonstrate our collective capabilities to the wider stakeholder community.”

Alan Bowen, CEO of Davie, added: “We have spent significant time with Babcock over the past six months developing a strategy which will culminate in a series of value propositions for the Federal government.”


• Babcock: Babcock is the UK’s leading engineering support services organisation with revenue of over £3.2bn in 2013 and an order book of circa £12bn. Defence, energy, telecommunications, transport and education are all sectors where Babcock can be found working diligently behind the scenes, delivering critical support.

• Chantier Davie Canada Inc. provides a wide range of products and services to a number of different industries where it leverages on its high-capacity fabrications capabilities for complex, engineered solutions. The capability to provide end-to-end turnkey solutions and its strategic location makes Davie an ideal partner for a range of industries from oil and gas to defence.

-ends-

So what do you reckon is the long game?

Support vessels

...to create a world-class tanker safety system in Canada.

  or Submarines........

 

[jollyjacktar]

Yes, they're headhunting locally as of late.  Not too sure how many guys want to move to Quebec City.  They're hoping to take advantage of Irving just having conducted a long term lay off of many trades as they re-tool.  (hah! I thought they already had the tool bit down pat already...)

I understand they're hoping to also get into the off shore oil business fabrication in addition to whatever sub-contracting might come of the Gov't orders.  So one of my shipmates from the city is telling me that the yard is hoping to shake off the union troubles that seemed to plague them in the past.  Mostly by hiring new blood.  Good luck to them.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Well here is the first result.

And speaking of unions, look at what the article says about labour costs compared to Europe.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/business/Davie+shipyards+christens+first+large+boat+decades/9084519/story.html

I said it before, and I'll say it again here: Davie runs into financial trouble faster than the other yards when the yard is idle because of its sheer size (as big, by itself as all the other yards in Canada - it can work on 15 to 20 ships at a time and is the only graving dock big enough for a carrier). It burns through money that much faster as a result. If under European management it can get steady specialized work from Europe because of its cost advantage in labour, it has a good shot at maintaining itself. At Seaspan, you have to decide if Navy or Coastguard goes first. At Davie, you could build all three AOR's AND the Arctic Icebreaker simultaneously.

 

[AlexanderM]

So is there a chance we might see the contract switched from Irving to Davie??  I'm not so concerned about Seaspan.

Just read the article.  I wish these guys had gotten it together sooner, would much rather see them have the Destroyer/Frigate contract as opposed to Irving.  These guys seem more competitive, whereas to me Irving is more about entitlement.

 

[mad dog 2020]

In the article it is mentioned that 60% is material and they have no control over that and 40% Labour.
Just to be environmentally responsible, could we not use recycled steel. There are plenty of steel foundries. Dofasco, USSteel or Stelco, Algoma..... Sorry old names........ The 3 Rs, reduce, recycle, reuse!
If I am not mistaken the USS NewYork has steel from the girders in the World Trade Towers 9-11!

 

[mad dog 2020]

After the Cyclone and F35 scandals. Irving better be stellar or there is a hungry, experienced, Huge competitor in the on deck circle, warming up. The article states that wage and cost wise it beats out European ship yards, but will the workers screw themselves over. It is a time for Irving to shine......

 

[NavyShooter]

It is a time for Irving to shine......

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:irony:

:trainwreck:

 

[Navy_Pete]

Well here is the first result.

And speaking of unions, look at what the article says about labour costs compared to Europe.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/business/Davie+shipyards+christens+first+large+boat+decades/9084519/story.html

I said it before, and I'll say it again here: Davie runs into financial trouble faster than the other yards when the yard is idle because of its sheer size (as big, by itself as all the other yards in Canada - it can work on 15 to 20 ships at a time and is the only graving dock big enough for a carrier). It burns through money that much faster as a result. If under European management it can get steady specialized work from Europe because of its cost advantage in labour, it has a good shot at maintaining itself. At Seaspan, you have to decide if Navy or Coastguard goes first. At Davie, you could build all three AOR's AND the Arctic Icebreaker simultaneously.

Davie was also a small part of a larger organization.  All their profits were funneled around to keep other divisions going, and eventually they had it running on too few fumes for it to be sustainable when the work stopped coming in.

They easily have the best facilities in the country.  I think the best option for Canada would have been a GOCO yard there to build ships, with the two coastal yards sticking to ship repair (more profit).  I think the biggest challenge for getting Davie going will be getting the people back; once the industrial base was gone I'm sure most of the skilled labour moved on to somewhere else.

 

[jollyjacktar]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:irony:

:trainwreck:

I wasn't going to hit such an obvious target, but seeing as you've opened the door...

 

[YZT580]

On this day in 1971 in Ottawa Ontario, the Canadian Government mothballed the experimental hydrofoil antisubmarine vessel: HMCS Bras d'Or for at least five years due to high costs. The programme was never resurrected.

The 200 tonne FHE-400 “Bras d'Or,” was 46.5 metres long and had a foil span of 20 metres. Construction of the prototype started in 1964, and sea trails began in 1968. It was by far the most advanced and sophisticated hydrofoil of its time. In 1969 the ship exceeded 63 knots (117 km/h; 72 mph), making her the fastest unarmed warship in the world.

Instead of leading the world in maritime technology we are now sucking hind tit.  It would be nice if our new strategy were to lead to greater things but I fear that our leaders our to hidebound and timid to ever take a chance

 

[Kirkhill]

It's funny that one of the arguments against Canada adopting hydrofoil technology was it was incompatible with Canada's icy waters.

The government then went on to buy conventional hulls that were equally incompatible with the ice.

Currently the government wants to buy ships capable of operating in the ice but there appears to be a large subset of the RCN that doesn't relish the thought of operating in the ice.

The Bras d'Or's hydrofoils gave her, and the De Havilland patrol ships that made it to the drawing board, not only high speeds but also stability in high sea states both when the vessel was underway and when she was shut down and drifting.


In fact,  IIRC,  the prescribed method of operation was "drift and sprint" in ASW mode.  The vessel would shut down and go completely quiet while listening.  It would relocate to a different listening position at a high rate of knots aided by gas turbine engines that could come on line rapidly from a cold start.

And they only used crews of 20 to 50 personnel.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Hydrofoils were tried out here on the west coast running passenger runs. the woody debris defeated them, strikes causing cracking in the fins and hull. Even the sidewall hovercraft suffered as I recall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_929

 

[Halifax Tar]

Hydrofoils were tried out here on the west coast running passenger runs. the woody debris defeated them, strikes causing cracking in the fins and hull. Even the sidewall hovercraft suffered as I recall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_929

HMCS Bras d'Or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMCS_Bras_d'Or_(FHE_400)

 

[Kirkhill]

Link
De Havilland Engineer's Statement

When I was a Sea Cadet the Bras d'Or was the next big thing.  She was what all us 14 year olds wanted to sail.

 

[FSTO]

Hydrofoils were tried out here on the west coast running passenger runs. the woody debris defeated them, strikes causing cracking in the fins and hull. Even the sidewall hovercraft suffered as I recall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_929

They were catamarans not hydrofoils.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I think you are confusing two different vessels.

BC Ferries ordered three "high-speed" ferries that were catamaran, and I don't know what happened to them as they were disposed of: never lived up to expectations and way way way overprice at seaspan, which built them.

meanwhile, in the early 1980's, Boeing ran two of its "Jetfoils" hydrofoils as ferries between Seattle and Victoria.  It made the run in a little less than 2 hours - if they didn't hit anything. It went away after that.

here's a picture of what they looked like:
http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4509497850462602&pid=1.9&m=&w=300&h=300&p=0

 

[Colin Parkinson]

and even a sidewall hovercraft was tried. To rough and to much large woody debris. Last I heard the fast cats were sold to a company in the ME, Qatar I think. Speaking to people the build quality was actually pretty good, the problem was that the engines were to big for the space available leading to ambient heat issues. The craft were at the size where a turbine might have been a better idea.
Part of the problem was tying the NDP political agenda to the program. From day 1 it was a gamble, we knew we could not compete with the large shipyards in Asia, so we tried to corner a niche market. When numnuts tied his political future to the vessels, I knew both the program and his career were in trouble. Most of the fastcat programs have suffered significant issues, some even required welders onboard to keep up with the cracking!
Another first for the Fastcats was attempting to tie them into an existing RO/RO terminal setup. Most fastcats require a significant time to unload and load. Ours were designed to keep the loading times close to a standard ferry. Frankly the routes were to short to make good use of the Cats speed and the wake issue forced them to give up much of that advantage. However the handling of the program from a political level was a disgrace and we promptly shot ourselves in the foot by making them "ship non gratis". In Europe fastcats are often used to supplement  existing runs at peak times and the vessels might be shifted to different markets at different seasons.
One good thing that came out of all of the above is a significant small aluminum vessel industry, building some very top-notch vessels (granted some sucky ones as well) Not to mention a bloom of aluminum fabricators.

edit: Marine Group announced on July 28, 2009 that they had sold the three ships for an undisclosed amount to Abu Dhabi MAR, a luxury yacht builder.[24]