New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[KevinB]

Have a listen to what Emily has to say. The roots of the issues plaguing the warship design and production are very common.

I did, but I disagree.

The LCS were ships the USN never wanted - for a role they didn't want - it was a role foisted upon them from Congress. The USN has zero interest fighting in Littoral Areas - they want big ocean - and will ignore anything that isn't that. The USMC has also sorts of asks from the USN, and generally the USN has littler interest in supporting them, and foot drags and gnashes teeth when Congress forces them to be supporting of Littoral and Brown Water things - heck if the USN had its way the Amphibs would be toast too - as they view those sorts of things rob their budget and remove "Real" Surface Command positions.

Both LCS ship types, and the FREMM have issues, but I disagree on the causes -- the FREMM issues are because the USN wants it to be a Mini AB, the LCS because no one cared about them.

@NavyShooter I'd equate the Zumwalt to the Avro Arrow, the technology for a large part of the design just wasn't there.

The unfortunate aspect I see on the FREMM is the mandate that seems to exist from successive CNO's that every USN Surface Combatant be Aegis capable

 

[quadrapiper]

I did, but I disagree.

The LCS were ships the USN never wanted - for a role they didn't want - it was a role foisted upon them from Congress. The USN has zero interest fighting in Littoral Areas - they want big ocean - and will ignore anything that isn't that. The USMC has also sorts of asks from the USN, and generally the USN has littler interest in supporting them, and foot drags and gnashes teeth when Congress forces them to be supporting of Littoral and Brown Water things - heck if the USN had its way the Amphibs would be toast too - as they view those sorts of things rob their budget and remove "Real" Surface Command positions.

Both LCS ship types, and the FREMM have issues, but I disagree on the causes -- the FREMM issues are because the USN wants it to be a Mini AB, the LCS because no one cared about them.

@NavyShooter I'd equate the Zumwalt to the Avro Arrow, the technology for a large part of the design just wasn't there.

The unfortunate aspect I see on the FREMM is the mandate that seems to exist from successive CNO's that every USN Surface Combatant be Aegis capable

The Zumwalts seemed to be sitting on the fence between being a pure R&D platform and an actual class.

Wasn't there a CNS who was rather keen on Littoral and the LCS?

 

[dapaterson]

The challenge is that the more you change the off the shelf design you chose to de-risk the project, the more you are re-risking the project.

 

[KevinB]

The Zumwalts seemed to be sitting on the fence between being a pure R&D platform and an actual class.

Oh I think it was over the R&D fence by a lot.

Wasn't there a CNS who was rather keen on Littoral and the LCS?

I think there was a SecNav who like the idea - but I don't think any of the Blue Suiters ever joined him in that.

 

[FSTO]

Oh I think it was over the R&D fence by a lot.

I think there was a SecNav who like the idea - but I don't think any of the Blue Suiters ever joined him in that.

LCS: History's Judgement Looms

pixie dust leavened with unicorn farts

cdrsalamander.substack.com

Some excerpts

Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld made clear that the U.S. military needed to improve its ability to tackle anti-access/area denial threats and project power in contested theaters. His office quietly informed U.S. Navy leaders that they needed to include a small surface combatant in any plans they put forward. The new chief of naval operations, Adm. Vern Clark, did just that.

Rumsfeld and Clark are the initiating force for all that followed with LCS. Accomplished men in some areas, here they were a toxic failure. Others who followed, most notably CNO’s Mullen and Roughead, just compounded this initial error of thought and execution.

Congress tried to kill LCS while in the womb a couple of times

In the summer of 2004, the House Armed Services Committee attempted to remove funding for the littoral combat ship from the FY2005 defense budget, citing a number of substantive concerns about the program: The committee continues to have concerns about the lack of a rigorous analysis of alternative concepts for performance of the LCS mission, the justification for the force structure sought by the Navy, and whether the program’s acquisition strategy is necessary to meet an urgent operational need. … [T]he committee is concerned about the Navy’s ability to resolve these issues before committing to the design for the LCS and beginning construction of the first ship.


I'd argue that the OHP (or its true frigate replacement) would have done a fine job in the littoral. The LCS and Zumwalt were too much too fast and too untested to be useful anywhere.

I'm not a tuned into the US Military as you but I think it would be madness to dissolve the Gators from the USN inventory. Any flat deck is a good flat deck in my books and the ability to embark helos and VTOL aircraft in addition to the strike capability of the CVN's is far better than nothing.

 

[KevinB]

LCS: History's Judgement Looms

pixie dust leavened with unicorn farts

cdrsalamander.substack.com

Some excerpts


Rumsfeld and Clark are the initiating force for all that followed with LCS. Accomplished men in some areas, here they were a toxic failure. Others who followed, most notably CNO’s Mullen and Roughead, just compounded this initial error of thought and execution.

Interesting - I never really paid much attention to the original of the LCS at the time, and I am guilty of listening to grumpy Naval Officers at Symposiums

Congress tried to kill LCS while in the womb a couple of times

In the summer of 2004, the House Armed Services Committee attempted to remove funding for the littoral combat ship from the FY2005 defense budget, citing a number of substantive concerns about the program: The committee continues to have concerns about the lack of a rigorous analysis of alternative concepts for performance of the LCS mission, the justification for the force structure sought by the Navy, and whether the program’s acquisition strategy is necessary to meet an urgent operational need. … [T]he committee is concerned about the Navy’s ability to resolve these issues before committing to the design for the LCS and beginning construction of the first ship.

Yeah I was busy during that decade and wasn't paying any attention to stuff that didn't concern my trips to Afghanistan or Iraq.
I really only started following the saga in the last 10 years ish.

I'd argue that the OHP (or its true frigate replacement) would have done a fine job in the littoral. The LCS and Zumwalt were too much too fast and too untested to be useful anywhere.

The LCS to me had a purpose for the USMC - but it needed to be fleshed out and properly designed, not half assed like what was done.
The Zumwalt to me always seemed like a Sci-Fi writers wet dream with no grounding in reality.

I'm not a tuned into the US Military as you but I think it would be madness to dissolve the Gators from the USN inventory. Any flat deck is a good flat deck in my books and the ability to embark helos and VTOL aircraft in addition to the strike capability of the CVN's is far better than nothing.

I suspect like any Branch they have their cliques that rise and fall from power - with the need to counter China, and be able to move personnel and equipment around the Pacific I don't see them going anywhere - but I do know a vocal bunch of USN Flag Officers see the role as beneath them...

 

[quadrapiper]

Oh I think it was over the R&D fence by a lot.

In its design, absolutely. In the expectation it would be an affordable class to be built out and introduced to the fleet, though?

Seemed like it would have been better packaged as a pure trials platform.

 

[Kirkhill]

The Zumwalts seemed to be sitting on the fence between being a pure R&D similar platform and an actual class.

Wasn't there a CNS who was rather keen on Littoral and the LCS?

The chap that initiated the programme wanted a short haul coastal vessel built on the same lines as the Spearhead JHSVs and similar high speed ferries. Basically he wanted a high speed patrol boat.

Another part of the navy, the real navy, wanted a blue water frigate. The same navy that has squashed hydrofoils, landing ships, patrol boats and riverine forces over the last 60 years.

The Freedom boats were an attempt to shoehorn a bluewater asw frigate into the LCS box. It failed.

The Aussie boats are being returned to their originating coastal environment along with their sister class JHSVs, now known as Expeditionary Fast Transports.

The USN asked for a horse and proceeded to use it like a camel.

 

[Kirkhill]

PS the LCS was initiated by thr Marines based on their experience with a chartered ferry on Okinawa.

This was at the same time the US Army was begging for the C27 Spartan for much the same reason...tactical lift. The USAF and the Navy were not giving the support the ground troops felt they required.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Yikes...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/navy-supply-ships-cost-1.7284133

 

[suffolkowner]

Yikes...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/navy-supply-ships-cost-1.7284133

its a good business to be in.
At this rate we will only get 12 Rivers.

JSS QTY 2 for $2.44B
revised $3.3B
Total $5.2B includes design in service support

OFSV QTY 3 for $788.5M
revised ???

OOSV QTY 1 for $453.8M
revised $778M
revised $995M
revised $1.28B

AOPS-RCN QTY 6 for $3.5B
revised $4.3B
revised $4.98

AOPS-CCG QTY 2 for $1.5B
revised $2.1B

PIB QTY 2 for $8.5B

CSC-River Class QTY 15 for $26.2B

 

[quadrapiper]

PS the LCS was initiated by thr Marines based on their experience with a chartered ferry on Okinawa.

Thought that was a different project, at least initially? IIRC the very earliest LCS (before it even got the name) concepts were more akin to an updated WWII destroyer or punchier OPV; good endurance, lots of guns, reasonable turn of speed, not particularly large; and the expected use seemed to boil down to gunboat work: giving pirates and other localized problems a kicking, and supporting forces ashore with the same goal, without having to send a Burke to muck around in coastal and river waters. Could be entirely wrong.

 

[Underway]

Yikes...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/navy-supply-ships-cost-1.7284133

YES! Closer to 2% every day!

 

[suffolkowner]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1824902459267149936

and named

https://twitter.com/x/status/1824840497610821664

 

[SeaKingTacco]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1824902459267149936

and named

https://twitter.com/x/status/1824840497610821664

That will be alot of fun to say on VHF-FM…

 

[PrairieFella]

I got you. I was being silly back.


I think they'll find something to do with them. The redesign was to Coast Guard specs and anticipated operations.

View attachment 86975

Not overly important contribution here but damn, that is a nice looking ship with that colour scheme.

 

[PrairieFella]

That will be alot of fun to say on VHF-FM…

He does sound like a worthy namesake for a Northern science vessel though.

 

[suffolkowner]

He does sound like a worthy namesake for a Northern science vessel though.

Is that what its supposed to be? As in Northern instead of Eastern? Its just PC6

 

[PrairieFella]

SO? Since WW2 we have been telling our children that trade jobs are for the stupid. University is the place to be to get a degree in whatever arts programme is the flavour of the day. So they have been spending a further 4 years in studies without acquiring any life skills. (with exceptions granted) Back in the 60s, our high schools had Science technology and trades courses which provided an introduction to skills. These vanished in the 80s partially because the teachers unions balked at having non-degree equipped experts i.e. a mechanic or an electrician gracing the sacred halls of academia and teaching skills courses. The NSS up here has enabled the yards to pair with community colleges and offer skills training while the long term contracts are enabling the yards to over some degree of stability. The final encouragement will be when we as parents start encouraging kids to get their hands dirty with their choice of careers. When we do that, the differences between then and now as far as hirings are concerned will be irrelevant.

Idk, trade programs and coops are super common in Manitoba high schools in French and English. I think you may be expanding a local problem to a national one in this case.

 

[PrairieFella]

Is that what its supposed to be? As in Northern instead of Eastern? Its just PC6

That's my assumption since they're partnering with the Inuit. Purely assumption but I think a reasonable one haha