New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[suffolkowner]

Stoker, I have the signed 5/500 of your avatar that was given to me by Silvia Pecota, signed by her and Kate Steen(the model). I met Kate on several occasions, she is gorgeous.

Yep so I'm off to learn how to play guitar and I guess I have to give up my cows. Maybe she has a daddy fetish?

Kate Steen – Canada’s Top Model

katesteen.ca

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Lets clear up a few things: First, there is a difference between a ship's ice rating and what it can actually do. The article about the Davie contract "nearing 1b$" is actually about the three river icebreakers: Those are the three Vikings icebreakers. The government bought them outright instead of leasing them from Davie. Two of them are now in service, with the third nearing completion - which is what the additional $64M is for. They are rated a Arctic class 4, like the class 1200 they replace, and yes that rating means 3 knots continuous through 1 m of multi-year ice, which the AOPS as class 5 are not rated to do. The AOPS are rated to do 1 m in first year ice with some inclusion. They can do better, but that is their rating. The Vikings, like the type 1200 can actually do a lot better, up to almost 2 meters in first year ice (I've seen the Radisson do just that in front of Quebec city to clear an ice dam).

As for Aivik, she is rated as Arctic class 3 - same as Louis-St-Laurent and Terry-Fox - a rating that means it can achieve 3 knots continuous in 1.8 meters of multi year ice.

There is noting unimpressive about any of those vessels.

 

[Stoker]

Lets clear up a few things: First, there is a difference between a ship's ice rating and what it can actually do. The article about the Davie contract "nearing 1b$" is actually about the three river icebreakers: Those are the three Vikings icebreakers. The government bought them outright instead of leasing them from Davie. Two of them are now in service, with the third nearing completion - which is what the additional $64M is for. They are rated a Arctic class 4, like the class 1200 they replace, and yes that rating means 3 knots continuous through 1 m of multi-year ice, which the AOPS as class 5 are not rated to do. The AOPS are rated to do 1 m in first year ice with some inclusion. They can do better, but that is their rating. The Vikings, like the type 1200 can actually do a lot better, up to almost 2 meters in first year ice (I've seen the Radisson do just that in front of Quebec city to clear an ice dam).

As for Aivik, she is rated as Arctic class 3 - same as Louis-St-Laurent and Terry-Fox - a rating that means it can achieve 3 knots continuous in 1.8 meters of multi year ice.

There is noting unimpressive about any of those vessels.

Actually AOPS has a PC4 icebreaking bow allowing them to officially break 1.2M of first year ice with old ice inclusions. As mentioned they break more ice than 1.2M as demonstrated in their ice trials. but yes officially she is a PC5.

 

[suffolkowner]

Lets clear up a few things: First, there is a difference between a ship's ice rating and what it can actually do. The article about the Davie contract "nearing 1b$" is actually about the three river icebreakers: Those are the three Vikings icebreakers. The government bought them outright instead of leasing them from Davie. Two of them are now in service, with the third nearing completion - which is what the additional $64M is for. They are rated a Arctic class 4, like the class 1200 they replace, and yes that rating means 3 knots continuous through 1 m of multi-year ice, which the AOPS as class 5 are not rated to do. The AOPS are rated to do 1 m in first year ice with some inclusion. They can do better, but that is their rating. The Vikings, like the type 1200 can actually do a lot better, up to almost 2 meters in first year ice (I've seen the Radisson do just that in front of Quebec city to clear an ice dam).

As for Aivik, she is rated as Arctic class 3 - same as Louis-St-Laurent and Terry-Fox - a rating that means it can achieve 3 knots continuous in 1.8 meters of multi year ice.

There is noting unimpressive about any of those vessels.

Thanks OGBD thats what I thought. That the ships were decently capable.

So is that the purchase of the Vikings has supplanted the previous plan to lease a river icebreaker? And what is the difference between a river icebreaker and a lake icebreaker and an ocean icebreaker?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

First, let me be clear: When I said "Nothing unimpressive about any of these vessels", I meant "any" of these vessels, which includes the AOPS. I am quite impressed with what has been delivered in terms of ice capability, which is definitely not a mere "slush breaker".

Now, Suffolkowner, the answer is yes, the purchase of the Vikings did supplant the leasing of them, which was the original offer of Davie.

As to the designation lake/river icebreaker, it is not a term of art but merely a description that the Canadian Coast Guard uses to indicate the primary area where they are intended to operate. The great lakes do not (or extremely rarely) freeze up completely and the ice is usually found around the perimeters where it seldom gets as thick as a meter, so class 5 icebreakers are quite sufficient for the task. Those are the class 1100 multi-task vessels of the Coast Guard (and a few even smaller) and they are generally referred to as "light icebreakers". On the St-Lawrence River, in the Gulf and around Newfoundland, the Coast Guard usually employ class 4 icebreakers (the type 1200, and now the Vikings) and they are referred to as "medium icebreakers". They are however quite capable of operating in the Arctic, and in fact do so for the summer season when the River and gulf are clear of ice, with some type 1200 (Amundsen in particular) some times over-wintering in the Arctic as a fixed base stuck in ice for research purposes.

 

[suffolkowner]

First, let me be clear: When I said "Nothing unimpressive about any of these vessels", I meant "any" of these vessels, which includes the AOPS. I am quite impressed with what has been delivered in terms of ice capability, which is definitely not a mere "slush breaker".

Now, Suffolkowner, the answer is yes, the purchase of the Vikings did supplant the leasing of them, which was the original offer of Davie.

As to the designation lake/river icebreaker, it is not a term of art but merely a description that the Canadian Coast Guard uses to indicate the primary area where they are intended to operate. The great lakes do not (or extremely rarely) freeze up completely and the ice is usually found around the perimeters where it seldom gets as thick as a meter, so class 5 icebreakers are quite sufficient for the task. Those are the class 1100 multi-task vessels of the Coast Guard (and a few even smaller) and they are generally referred to as "light icebreakers". On the St-Lawrence River, in the Gulf and around Newfoundland, the Coast Guard usually employ class 4 icebreakers (the type 1200, and now the Vikings) and they are referred to as "medium icebreakers". They are however quite capable of operating in the Arctic, and in fact do so for the summer season when the River and gulf are clear of ice, with some type 1200 (Amundsen in particular) some times over-wintering in the Arctic as a fixed base stuck in ice for research purposes.

Thanks OGBD but I was actually referring to this

Canada Looking For 4th Icebuster

There are a few second had breakers on the market but DND needs to move quickly. https://navaltoday.com/2019/02/19/canada-looking-to-buy-fourth-second-hand-icebreaker/ https://commercial.apolloduck.com/boats-for-sale/commercial/ice-breaker

milnet.ca

 

[Colin Parkinson]

My understanding is that the River Class icebreakers are built with more longitudinal strength and stiffness as they are expected push through much heavier ice that is moving/can move in one direction. Whereas the Arctic Class also deals with crush resistance caused by wind driven pack ice. We were trying to get home to the West Coast in the Pearkes (1100 Class, CASPPR Arctic Class 2) and had the Raddison follow us to Pt Barrow to help us through the pack ice.

This helps explain the ice classes

https://www.engr.mun.ca/~cdaley/8074/Ice Class Rules_CD.pdf

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Seems even the Germans are going down the ballistic missile defense road.

Germany readies frigates for ballistic missile defense missions

The German Navy plans to equip its Sachsen-class frigates with new radars that expand the vessels’ capabilities into the field of ballistic missile defense.

www.defensenews.com

 

[Swampbuggy]

Seems even the Germans are going down the ballistic missile defense road.

Germany readies frigates for ballistic missile defense missions

The German Navy plans to equip its Sachsen-class frigates with new radars that expand the vessels’ capabilities into the field of ballistic missile defense.

www.defensenews.com

This is interesting. I was under the impression that the ship already had a theoretical ballistic missile defense capability currently. If I'm not mistaken, the radar suite (APAR and SMART-L) is essentially the same as on the Dutch DZP frigates. IIRC the Dutch ship TROMP conducted an exercise with the USN where it proved capable of BMD.

 

[Karel Doorman]

True,but don't know wheter the German ships allready got the SMART_LMM (Multi Mission)version,which has a vieuw range of about 2000 kms.

Royal Netherlands Navy’s HNLMS De Zeven Provinciën Frigate Tracks Ballistic Missile - Naval News

The Royal Netherlands Navy announced that the SMART-L Multi Mission/Naval radar aboard HNLMS De Zeven Provinciën was used to eliminate a ballistic missile, marking a first in Europe. This was carried out during exercise Formidable Shield 2021.

www.navalnews.com

 

[Underway]

BMD and shooting down a BM are not necessarily the same thing. I've made that same mistake on this forum before. You could easily shoot down a BM if it was aimed at your ship, its just another missile. BMD is an entirely different ball of wax.

 

[CBH99]

BMD and shooting down a BM are not necessarily the same thing. I've made that same mistake on this forum before. You could easily shoot down a BM if it was aimed at your ship, its just another missile. BMD is an entirely different ball of wax.

That’s a solid point I hadn’t thought of before, or separated the 2 scenarios in my mind before.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Some of you may be interested in this. A link to register for a talk from Seaspan on the new CCG heavy Icebreaker.

Seaspan Shipyards

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Seaspan marks 10 years of the NSS

Building Ships - Seaspan

nss.seaspan.com

October 19, 2021 – North Vancouver, BC – Seaspan Shipyards (Seaspan) is proudly celebrating ten years of building ships for Canada under the National Shipbuilding Strategy (NSS).

On this day in 2011, Seaspan was selected as Canada’s long-term strategic shipbuilding partner to construct large, non-combat vessels for the Canadian Coast Guard and Royal Canadian Navy.

As a result of the NSS and the certainty it provides, for ten years now, Seaspan has invested in its infrastructure and its people, helping rebuild a sustainable, competitive marine industry; built its cross-Canada supply chain; and renewed the federal fleet with ships built in Canada by Canadians.

Seaspan invested more than $185 million to transform its shipyard into one of the most modern in North America, with a purpose-built infrastructure to deliver much-needed ships for Canada’s federal fleets. Seaspan’s NSS program of work includes three Offshore Fisheries Science Vessels (OFSVs), one Offshore Oceanographic Science Vessel (OOSV), 16 Multi-Purpose Vessels (MPVs), and one Polar Icebreaker for the Canadian Coast Guard as well as two Joint Support Ships (JSSs) for the Royal Canadian Navy. These vessels will play a vital role in ensuring Canadian sovereignty; conducting climate and ocean research; and protecting the world’s longest coastline, including our fragile Arctic waterways.

Seaspan’s team has now delivered to the Coast Guard all three world-class OFSVs—completing the first full class of large vessels delivered under the NSS. Several other vessels are under construction and in design.

Seaspan also released today a new socioeconomic impact study, conducted by Deloitte, which highlights the significant economic and job creation engine that the NSS and Seaspan have become. Over the period from 2012 to 2021, Seaspan contributed $2.6 billion to Canada’s Gross Domestic Product (GDP) through its NSS-related activities alone (and an additional $1.4 billion through its repair, refit and maintenance activities). Seaspan has awarded more than $1.8 billion in NSS-related contracts to more than 660 Canadian suppliers from coast to coast, many of which are small and medium-sized businesses. They, in turn, have been able to grow; develop advanced technologies; reinvest in R&D, infrastructure, and skills development; and leverage new opportunities at home and abroad.

Over the past decade, Seaspan has also grown its workforce into a team of approximately 2,700 engineers, naval architects, procurement specialists, and highly skilled tradespeople – from welders, pipefitters, shipfitters, electricians and mechanics to millwrights, machinists, riggers, joiners, and painters. In the process, Seaspan has become a major employer in British Columbia and a workplace of choice not only for its employees and new graduates but also for hundreds of apprentices and interns. Seaspan is also a significant contributor to training and skills development initiatives across the region that will help ensure a pipeline of top marine talent for generations to come.

Watch Seaspan Shipyards’ 10-year anniversary video.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Listened in on the Seaspan Industry Day for the Polar Icebreaker, design will be to Polar Class 2 (Year-round operation in moderate multi-year ice conditions)
They did mention that there is a possibility that the CCG would use Remotely Piloted Aircraft, but still an if, but they want to be prepared for a yes.
currently in a design check phase with actual construct
Interesting propulsion setup

 

[Underway]

Not only is this a really good catch, but its a great way to show why military vessels don't break ice... look at that hull form!

Also the range on that thing is crazy amazing. Moon pool. Very interesting.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Listened in on the Seaspan Industry Day for the Polar Icebreaker, design will be to Polar Class 2 (Year-round operation in moderate multi-year ice conditions)
They did mention that there is a possibility that the CCG would use Remotely Piloted Aircraft, but still an if, but they want to be prepared for a yes.
currently in a design check phase with actual construct
Interesting propulsion setup

View attachment 66926
View attachment 66927
View attachment 66928

Interesting that its got a faster speed than the AOPS and less crew.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Listened in on the Seaspan Industry Day for the Polar Icebreaker, design will be to Polar Class 2 (Year-round operation in moderate multi-year ice conditions)
They did mention that there is a possibility that the CCG would use Remotely Piloted Aircraft, but still an if, but they want to be prepared for a yes.
currently in a design check phase with actual construct
Interesting propulsion setup

View attachment 66926
View attachment 66927
View attachment 66928

Does this mean that Davie will be building the exact same specs?

If so, is Seaspan working with Davie in the identifying and engaging of the systems integrators, equipment suppliers and 'other' supplies or, will each of them be doing this in complete silo's wasting time/effort and good will?

Looking to me that this is a potential disaster waiting to happen....

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Not only is this a really good catch, but its a great way to show why military vessels don't break ice... look at that hull form!

Also the range on that thing is crazy amazing. Moon pool. Very interesting.

Yes the moon pool will allow instrumentation and ROV work while in ice, without the need to cut through the ice. It will be interesting how they do it, not sure there is any other heavy ice breaker out there with one?

 

[Kirkhill]

Also interesting is the "belt and braces" approach to propulsion - using both "conventional" twin shafts and the "Duel Acting" Azipod along with the bow thrusters.

That should leave lots of options in the ice.