New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[JLB50]

With recruitment being such a problem I hate to think what things will be like for Canada if the current cold war with a certain unnamed nation (not to mention China by name) heats up.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The CAF is out of sight of most Canadians and the demographics of the CAF aren't representative of the Country. For instance, a disproportionate percentage of the Armed Forces is from Atlantic Canada, despite Atlantic Canada making up less than 2% of the National population. There is no actual stats on this but from my experience, Military Service in Canada is overwhelmingly an affair conducted by a small pool of people that come from areas of the Country with cultural, familial and heritage connections to Military Service. It's a case of, their fathers and grandfathers did it and now they are doing it.

My family definitely fits in to this category. Both my grandfathers served in the Military and their brothers and fathers before them all served in the wars. My grandfather was a Naval Officer, his brother served on Corvettes in WWII and , my other great uncle was an Infanteer in WWII and participated in the entire European campaign, my other great Uncle was a member of the Canadian Guards and ended his career as a Sergeant Major. Both my Great grandfathers served in WWI. All of them eventually left the Military and went on to other careers but their 20s were spent doing their time in the Armed Forces.

My brother is now in the Armed Forces along with myself. I was an Infantry Officer and am now a Naval Officer. Military Service is just something my family does. We don't spend our entire lives doing it but we do our time and believe in the service and are patriotic.

The Royal Canadian Navy is even more skewed because it's overwhelmingly filled with Old-Canada Anglo-Saxons from smaller Maritime Regions. The Navy also suffers from poor capture of areas with a Maritime tradition as it hasn't set itself up to take advantage of these groups of people.

Take for example the spread of Naval Reserve Divisions in this Country: There are more Naval Reserve Divisions in the Prairies than there are in Atlantic Canada. I grew up on the water, I have family that are heavily involved in Commercial Fisheries with actual experience working on the water. A few of my cousins own their own Commercial Vessels and make great money in that industry.

They would all make great Naval Reservists if they actually had access to an NRD but the nearest one if 400 miles away. You could probably even have them available for deployments when they aren't in season. It would be a better alternarive than collecting EI. New Brunswick only has one NRD and it's in Saint John, NB. The 250,000 Acadians that literally all live on the Coast and mostly make their money in the commercial fishing industry don't even have access to a French NRD they can call their own.

The Navy's real problem is Canada isn't really a maritime nation. It's a country that is surrounded by water on three sides but the Ocean is far from most peoples minds. Especially in Central Canada, where most of the population hasn't even seen the Ocean before.

A lot of people both in the CCG and commercial fleet started out in Navy league/Sea Cadets if you want to start building a presence, there is a good place to start.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

With recruitment being such a problem I hate to think what things will be like for Canada if the current cold war with a certain unnamed nation (not to mention China by name) heats up.

Recruitment is the least of our worries. Our fleet has fallen so far behind the rest of the World we are basically never going to catch up. One Arleigh Burke has more firepower in missiles than basically our entire West Coast fleet combined.

We aren't playing in the same league anymore as most of our Allies.

 

[MilEME09]

Recruitment is the least of our worries. Our fleet has fallen so far behind the rest of the World we are basically never going to catch up. One Arleigh Burke has more firepower in missiles than basically our entire West Coast fleet combined.

We aren't playing in the same league anymore as most of our Allies.

Hopefully once we get the type 26 joining the fleet that will help. I personally don't think for a maritime trade heavy nation that our navy is as big as it should be but to correct it would take a new top to bottom strategy to ensure the expansion and long term viability of the RCN

 

[medic5]

The CAF is out of sight of most Canadians and the demographics of the CAF aren't representative of the Country. For instance, a disproportionate percentage of the Armed Forces is from Atlantic Canada, despite Atlantic Canada making up less than 2% of the National population. There is no actual stats on this but from my experience, Military Service in Canada is overwhelmingly an affair conducted by a small pool of people that come from areas of the Country with cultural, familial and heritage connections to Military Service. It's a case of, their fathers and grandfathers did it and now they are doing it.

Interestingly enough, I'm a second gen immigrant from China with no family military background. Then again I am spending my Saturday reading army.ca, so I suppose I'm the exception rather than the rule.

This sort of thing happens in the US too, where military service is mostly comprised of those who's family has also served, leading to small communities that provide a massive amount of recruits proportionality. Can't seem to find the article that backs up what I'm saying, so correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Recruitment is the least of our worries. Our fleet has fallen so far behind the rest of the World we are basically never going to catch up. One Arleigh Burke has more firepower in missiles than basically our entire West Coast fleet combined.

We aren't playing in the same league anymore as most of our Allies.

The CSC will be a major game changer if built and equipped as planned and the RCN will move to Middle Power status with them, now throw in 4 AOR's, new subs and new patrol aircraft, Canada could kick some serious butt on the ocean if it had to.

 

[Underway]

The CSC will be a major game changer if built and equipped as planned and the RCN will move to Middle Power status with them, now throw in 4 AOR's, new subs and new patrol aircraft, Canada could kick some serious butt on the ocean if it had to.

I agree. If we can get the two task group concept working it will be amazing.

All the numbers and planning are pointing in that direction and if it works it will be a significant step in making Canada credible on the naval world stage. We need a minimum of 3 AOR's to make it work, though four would be great. We haven't had a fleet mix sidetrack in a while so...

Each task group consists of 1 Protecteur Class AOR, 4x major surface combatant (CSC/Halifax class mix to start). Optional additions are 1 x submarine and MPA's. All the ships would be carrying their full complement of Cyclones. Which means 6x helicopters.

IF we could pull that off for 6 months of a year (normal operations, not emergency) it would be amazing. I've been on Standing NATO Maritime Groups with significantly less capability than that would have.

 

[MilEME09]

Only thing missing now would be an LHD

 

[Underway]

Only thing missing now would be an LHD

For what purpose? I'm not disagreeing but what's the end goal here. Amphibious operations or helicopter/UAS carrier to enhance the task group?

 

[MilEME09]

For what purpose? I'm not disagreeing but what's the end goal here. Amphibious operations or helicopter/UAS carrier to enhance the task group?

We don't have the equipment for the Army to do amphibious operations, but a helicopter/UAS carrier would give a lot of flexibility to respond to various situations, give it enhanced maintenance facilities as well to better maintain the fleets helicopters.

Example, CAF is experimenting with 3D printing parts, if this can be done safely a ship like can LHD becomes a floating maintenance depot for the fleet.

 

[FJAG]

... They would all make great Naval Reservists if they actually had access to an NRD but the nearest one if 400 miles away. You could probably even have them available for deployments when they aren't in season. It would be a better alternarive than collecting EI. New Brunswick only has one NRD and it's in Saint John, NB. The 250,000 Acadians that literally all live on the Coast and mostly make their money in the commercial fishing industry don't even have access to a French NRD they can call their own.

The Navy's real problem is Canada isn't really a maritime nation. It's a country that is surrounded by water on three sides but the Ocean is far from most peoples minds. Especially in Central Canada, where most of the population hasn't even seen the Ocean before.

On the other hand you really don't need an ocean for a naval reserve unit. There are fairly large urban centres all along the St Lawrence and Great Lakes many with naval reserve divisions (13 in fact). Transfer a couple of training vessels into the Great Lakes for the summer and have at it. No reason one couldn't bring a frigate or two onto the Great Lakes with a skeleton training crew and run courses all summer long during the APS.

If the Navy wanted to.

If the Navy thought it important enough.

 

[Underway]

On the other hand you really don't need an ocean for a naval reserve unit. There are fairly large urban centres all along the St Lawrence and Great Lakes many with naval reserve divisions (13 in fact). Transfer a couple of training vessels into the Great Lakes for the summer and have at it. No reason one couldn't bring a frigate or two onto the Great Lakes with a skeleton training crew and run courses all summer long during the APS.

If the Navy wanted to.

If the Navy thought it important enough.

The navy has done that in the past. During the Great Lakes deployments, usually, run in the summer. Smaller core crew but they load up on PRes who are looking to get tickets as engineers, watch time etc... They also often take Sea Cadets along to learn deck work and seamanship skills. It's not as formal as you have put it however. It's more of a PR trip with the added reservists to round out the crew.

 

[FJAG]

The navy has done that in the past. During the Great Lakes deployments, usually, run in the summer. Smaller core crew but they load up on PRes who are looking to get tickets as engineers, watch time etc... They also often take Sea Cadets along to learn deck work and seamanship skills. It's not as formal as you have put it however. It's more of a PR trip with the added reservists to round out the crew.

Good that they do. That's the one neat things about ships. You don't need to move the trainees to the training facility; you can bring the facility to the trainees.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

We don't have the equipment for the Army to do amphibious operations, but a helicopter/UAS carrier would give a lot of flexibility to respond to various situations, give it enhanced maintenance facilities as well to better maintain the fleets helicopters.

Example, CAF is experimenting with 3D printing parts, if this can be done safely a ship like can LHD becomes a floating maintenance depot for the fleet.

Van Doos practised amphip ops off of the French Mistral using LAV's so it can be done with existing kit. The bigger issue is having enough helicopters to fly off them. Mind you we could operate it like an AOR support allied navies using their forces and helicopters. I give up a CSC and two AOP's for two of the ice strengthened Mistrals. Would also make a good task force command ship/mother ship for anti-piracy patrols.

 

[Underway]

I'm a bit romantic about NAM Atlântico. At least in the way, the Brazilians plan to use her. Less commando's more aircraft. I always like escort carriers and this strikes me as something similar. JS Ise is perhaps a better example. Getting into the helicopter destroyer game would be amazing.

I have no idea if this is even a good idea or not but I can certainly see the advantages. RMP is one, as is the ability to really double down on the zone ASW due to a larger number of helicopters. It could easily be a hub for UAS operations and certainly would be the flagship when it was sailing.

*edit: oddly enough this sort of thing hamstrings your fleet a little. When this sort of ship sails she usually sails with an escort so it costs two ships to operate one.

 

[MilEME09]

I'm a bit romantic about NAM Atlântico. At least in the way, the Brazilians plan to use her. Less commando's more aircraft. I always like escort carriers and this strikes me as something similar. JS Ise is perhaps a better example. Getting into the helicopter destroyer game would be amazing.

I have no idea if this is even a good idea or not but I can certainly see the advantages. RMP is one, as is the ability to really double down on the zone ASW due to a larger number of helicopters. It could easily be a hub for UAS operations and certainly would be the flagship when it was sailing.

*edit: oddly enough this sort of thing hamstrings your fleet a little. When this sort of ship sails she usually sails with an escort so it costs two ships to operate one.

Something like the Hyuga class would work, especially if we use it more royal navy style IE use it as a way to deploy and support commando operations. JTF/CANSOF operating off a ship like that could do alot of damage since the Hyuga's have VLS, commandos go in, paint a target for the fleet to strike.

 

[Gorgo]

On the other hand you really don't need an ocean for a naval reserve unit. There are fairly large urban centres all along the St Lawrence and Great Lakes many with naval reserve divisions (13 in fact). Transfer a couple of training vessels into the Great Lakes for the summer and have at it. No reason one couldn't bring a frigate or two onto the Great Lakes with a skeleton training crew and run courses all summer long during the APS.

If the Navy wanted to.

If the Navy thought it important enough.

Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Brunswicker has a tender in MONCTON?! When did this happen?!

 

[FJAG]

Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Brunswicker has a tender in MONCTON?! When did this happen?!

Apparently 6 June 2019

HMCS Brunswicker - Wikipedia

 

[suffolkowner]

Always been a fan of the Bay Class LPD or looking to the future the MRSS

Ellida – The future Multi Role Support Ship?

ELLIDA is a multi-role support and logistics vessel that can transport and deliver troops, vehicles, equipment and supplies.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

In focus: the BMT ELLIDA multi-role and logistics vessel concept | Navy Lookout

www.navylookout.com

 

[Navy_Pete]

With recruitment being such a problem I hate to think what things will be like for Canada if the current cold war with a certain unnamed nation (not to mention China by name) heats up.

When has Canada ever gone into a unilateral war? We would just do whatever we could with what we had if something happened, but we'd be a nuisance at best if push came to shove if we tried going it alone. That would just be dumb.

Thinking we need to fight alone, as opposed to trying to figure out how we can contribute to a coalition force, is a waste of time IMHO.