New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[Underway]

People who think the Laurentian elites are bad should come to the east coast and bare witness to how strongly a few rich and influential people can dominate huge sectors of industry.

There isn't that much industry to dominate unfortunately.  Which might be part of the problem. Frankly looking around Halifax it seems like the main employer is government directly (military, coast guard, health care) or indirectly (Dalhousie University, Irving Shipbuilding).  So who's really dominant?

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

There isn't that much industry to dominate unfortunately.  Which might be part of the problem. Frankly looking around Halifax it seems like the main employer is government directly (military, coast guard, health care) or indirectly (Dalhousie University, Irving Shipbuilding).  So who's really dominant?

Up in Northern NB, all the big multinational mills closed up shop for one reason:  they got tired of dealing with militant unions.

Smurfit-Stone closed in Bathurst in 2005 (Bathurst had been making paper for almost 100 years) after just completing millions of dollars in upgrades to the mill.  Why?  Company got wind the Union planned strike action.  Bye Bye Mill.

 

[observor 69]

"The New Richmond and Bathurst mills have an annual production capacity of 235,000 tons of linerboard and 243,000 of corrugating medium respectively. Both mills have been recently idled due to market conditions.

Smurfit-Stone also plans to permanently shut a paper machine at Fernandina Beach, Fla. The machine has been idle since April 2001.

Smurfit-Stone said demand is slowing for packaging in North America, as manufacturing is being shifted overseas. "We are in a mature industry that has struggled to achieve adequate returns," Moore said.

"We have been unable to pass along inflationary costs, such as energy and fiber, to our customers. In addition, the manufacturing exodus overseas has had a strong impact on containerboard demand throughout North America.

Last month, Abitibi-Consolidated announced plans to close several paper machines in Newfoundland and Ontario as it tries to cope with tough conditions in the paper sector.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/bathurst-mill-closes-hundreds-lose-jobs-1.547783

 

[Navy_Pete]

There is such a thing as a contract you know.  For better or for worse we entered a legitimate agreement with Irving and Seaspan.  Yes both companies have profited from the agreement but both companies have installed massive infrastructure that would never have been there otherwise.  Just because a third company wants a piece of the action is no reason to go back on our agreements: only non-delivery or bad quality control would entitle us to do that.  From what I gather much of the delay in Seaspan has been a result of faulty plans that had to be revised: plans that Seaspan had no part in initiating.  Irving seems to be on track now that they have gotten their act together so what is the beef?  there are lots of ships still to be procured that will come on line outside of the national policy agreements or that neither Seaspan nor Irving will be able to deliver when required (after all, there are only so many man years and so much construction space at the yards): let Davies bid on them and they can compete with the other two at that time.

There is no place for common sense or logic on the internet!  :tsktsk: :tsktsk:

Two minor points to add though; both VSY and ISI invested 9 figures in upgrading the shipyards and took about two years after contract award, so nothing really started being built until 2015.  It was understood that there is a huge learning curve at the start.  Davie would need a similar level of investment to get their shipyard up to a similar level to build shipyards efficiently, so they aren't some kind of panacea.

Also, cut steel date means nothing really, as that's a ceremonial thing that you can do without even having a design.  The drumbeat is picking up, so driving down the flash to bang timeline, but we knew back in 2009 that would take 3-4 ships minimum before any new shipyard got to a reasonable level of efficiency at the front end, and we're still in the bit of a learning curve where the improvements are in the 30%+ range, so everyone needs to calm down and carry a towel, and look at the long term picture where we're in a 30 year program.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

"The New Richmond and Bathurst mills have an annual production capacity of 235,000 tons of linerboard and 243,000 of corrugating medium respectively. Both mills have been recently idled due to market conditions.

Smurfit-Stone also plans to permanently shut a paper machine at Fernandina Beach, Fla. The machine has been idle since April 2001.

Smurfit-Stone said demand is slowing for packaging in North America, as manufacturing is being shifted overseas. "We are in a mature industry that has struggled to achieve adequate returns," Moore said.

"We have been unable to pass along inflationary costs, such as energy and fiber, to our customers. In addition, the manufacturing exodus overseas has had a strong impact on containerboard demand throughout North America.

Last month, Abitibi-Consolidated announced plans to close several paper machines in Newfoundland and Ontario as it tries to cope with tough conditions in the paper sector.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/bathurst-mill-closes-hundreds-lose-jobs-1.547783

Oh I remember vividly.  Did the article also mention that Smurfit "sabotaged" their own equipment so nobody could put the mill back in to operation? 

There are stated reasons and real reasons for things.  Miramichi NB had three mills at the time and two of them were also on strike for 18 months.  Only one remains now and it's the non-unionized one. 

Smurfit also left the site to become an environmental catastrophe:

Welcome to Sarajevo, NB folks:

De-industrialization has killed much of Atlantic Canada.

Don't worry though, they still cut lots of wood in NB, they just ship it all to Quebec.  In fact, the NB Government increased how much wood companies were allowed to harvest annually to unsustainable levels. 

 

[Uzlu]

Two minor points to add though; both VSY and ISI invested 9 figures in upgrading the shipyards and took about two years after contract award, so nothing really started being built until 2015.  It was understood that there is a huge learning curve at the start.  Davie would need a similar level of investment to get their shipyard up to a similar level to build shipyards efficiently, so they aren't some kind of panacea.

Boisvert said the investment will give the firm the money it needs to update its facilities, as well as a cash flow to fund future projects.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-investment-davie-shipyard-1.4737096

 

[Baz]

Two minor points to add though; both VSY and ISI invested 9 figures in upgrading the shipyards...

To be fair, my undrstanding is ISI didn't invest anything.  The Nova Scotia government did in forgivable loans.  In effect, if all goes well ISI makes a profit.  If it doesn't, the Nova Scotia taxpayers take the loss.  So there was very little risk assumed by ISI.

I understand that's how these things are done, especially in Nova Scotia, but it does highlight that none of this is simple.

 

[Underway]

To be fair, my undrstanding is ISI didn't invest anything.  The Nova Scotia government did in forgivable loans.  In effect, if all goes well ISI makes a profit.  If it doesn't, the Nova Scotia taxpayers take the loss.  So there was very little risk assumed by ISI.

I understand that's how these things are done, especially in Nova Scotia, but it does highlight that none of this is simple.

I think Navy_Pete was referring to investment in infrastructure amounts for the shipyards vice who actually pays the bill.  ISI has invested over $300 million in its shipyard despite the fact that the NS gov't gave them a loan.

 

[MilEME09]

https://www.cbc.ca/1.4788322?cmp=FB_Post_News

Looks like quality issues already from Seaspan

 

[CBH99]

To be fair, it does happen... seems like overall, it was a small number of welds compared to the total number of welds done on the ship.  Perhaps an inexperienced person with not enough training or supervision.

To be fair, even the US Navy has welding issues pop up "seemingly" frequently, and they always have tons of ships under construction...in their case it's an even smaller percentage due to the sheer number of ships they build annually, but it happens.  (Recently there were some defective welds on missile launch tubes intended for new submarines.)

I wouldn't instantly flame the yard...just make sure they are aware of the problem, fix it, and make the necessary changes so it's fixed in the future also.

 

[JMCanada]

To be fair, it does happen...

I wouldn't instantly flame the yard...just make sure they are aware of the problem, fix it, and make the necessary changes so it's fixed in the future also.

Very reasonable & sensible reply.

I worked once in a nuclear plant at the time of refueling, the condenser had to be reworked (where pure water cools the radioactive steam circuit).

There were hundreds of welds and of course a few of them came out wrong. The matter is to ensure by different means (including X-rays) that each and every weld is ammended and perfectly seals the two elements. Then the work can go on to next step.

 

[Good2Golf]

Indeed.  That's the purpose of a QA system within a production framework.  The fact that it appears as though the flaws were identical across hull numbers and that the welding process/equipment involved was identified and replaced means the systems is working.  I say good on VSI for not shying away from acknowledging the issue and addressing what's being done to resolve the issue and prevent its occurrence in the future.

Regards
G2G

 

[Underway]

Indeed.  That's the purpose of a QA system within a production framework.  The fact that it appears as though the flaws were identical across hull numbers and that the welding process/equipment involved was identified and replaced means the systems is working.  I say good on VSI for not shying away from acknowledging the issue and addressing what's being done to resolve the issue and prevent its occurrence in the future.

Regards
G2G

Fully agree.  Far worse that bad welds get past QA and leads to all the problems that might cause.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Fully agree.  Far worse that bad welds get past QA and leads to all the problems that might cause.

Quality is all about leadership, of course:

"The aim of leadership should be to improve the performance of man and machine, to improve quality, to increase output, and simultaneously to bring pride of workmanship to people. Put in a negative way, the aim of leadership is not merely to find and record failures of men, but to remove the causes of failure: to help people to do a better job with less effort.”

W. Edwards Deming

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Quality is all about leadership, of course:

"The aim of leadership should be to improve the performance of man and machine, to improve quality, to increase output, and simultaneously to bring pride of workmanship to people. Put in a negative way, the aim of leadership is not merely to find and record failures of men, but to remove the causes of failure: to help people to do a better job with less effort.”

W. Edwards Deming

Nice touch, daftandbarmy.

I had to study  In Search of Excellence too, when I was doing my graduate diploma in administration. So you and I both know that Deming is not using the word leadership to denote the activity of guiding and motivating others (as we would use it in the military) but as noun to designate the upper management of a company as an identified group of people. Basically he is saying that constantly improving quality of the product is the main task of the upper management of a company. He had studied the Japanese post war corporate world after all.   

 

[daftandbarmy]

Nice touch, daftandbarmy.

I had to study  In Search of Excellence too, when I was doing my graduate diploma in administration. So you and I both know that Deming is not using the word leadership to denote the activity of guiding and motivating others (as we would use it in the military) but as noun to designate the upper management of a company as an identified group of people. Basically he is saying that constantly improving quality of the product is the main task of the upper management of a company. He had studied the Japanese post war corporate world after all. 

Yup. He also said:

'Under no circumstances should we export North American management styles to a friendly country.'

Which is right on the nose with respect to what it takes to properly manage systems and processes to ensure high quality products and services.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Still slightly ff topic:

It's rather a pity, in a way, that the Asians, especially the Japanese and Koreans read and listened to Deming in the 1960s while American industrial "leaders" decided, in the 1950s, to ignore him and go with concepts like Planned Obsolescence instead.

 

[Kirkhill]

America followed the example of the Paris Salons - new fashions for every season.

The personal computing market seems to have followed the same trend as well.  Why create something that won't breakdown for 10 years if the technology is going to be obsolete in 6 months?

Makes you wonder about building ships and aircraft for 40 years ......

 

[Dale Denton]

America followed the example of the Paris Salons - new fashions for every season.

The personal computing market seems to have followed the same trend as well.  Why create something that won't breakdown for 10 years if the technology is going to be obsolete in 6 months?

Makes you wonder about building ships and aircraft for 40 years ......

Never thought of that before, thanks.

SHouldnt it be written in (maybe in the 'shakeup' coming up) that after every 3 CSCs Irving builds, that there be a new 'Flight' or 'MK' made? What good is it to build a 2025-era CSC for $2Billion or whatever in 2040 if its using 15-20 year old tech?

Strong-Secure-Engaged = Obsolete, Unsafe, Late

 

[Uzlu]

SHouldnt it be written in (maybe in the 'shakeup' coming up) that after every 3 CSCs Irving builds, that there be a new 'Flight' or 'MK' made?

Yes.  I think it might be five blocks of three—somewhat similar to what was done with the St. Laurent, Restigouche, Mackenzie, and Annapolis-class ships.  I think it might be five classes of ships having a common hull and propulsion machinery.