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New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

  • Thread starter Thread starter GAP
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YZT580:

There is such a thing as a contract you know.

As for as I know there is no contract with Irving for actual construction of CSCs, nor with Seaspan for the icebreaker.

Mark
Ottawa
 
2.2 The Umbrella Agreements of 2012

In January 2012, umbrella agreements were signed with the two selected shipyards. According to PWGSC, the umbrella agreements are “long-term strategic sourcing arrangements that define the working relationships and administrative arrangements under which the government will negotiate fair and reasonable individual contracts” with the selected shipyards to build ships.22 Although they “are not contracts” in and of themselves and “make no commitments for future work,” 23 the umbrella agreements “highlight the principles and general intent of the relationship between Canada and the designated shipyard. They describe certain preconditions to contract awarding and other specific terms to be included in the contracts.” 24

That being said, there is no contractual obligation to allocate all of the NSPS’s large-ship construction program contracts to the selected shipyards under the umbrella agreements. With the present system, the shipyards must still fulfill certain commitments and preconditions defined in the umbrella agreements in order to obtain contracts. These include, among other things, getting their workforces and infrastructures ready for the construction of the CCG and RCN ships.25 Failure to do so could potentially result in the termination of an umbrella agreement with the federal government. As far as is known, the NSPS agreements mark the first time that the federal government has signed umbrella agreements with Canadian shipbuilders.

As a result of these umbrella agreements, both Halifax Shipyard and Vancouver Shipyards have been actively engaged in the process of upgrading, expanding and preparing their shipyards for production. This work is valued at approximately $300 million at Halifax Shipyard and $200 million at Vancouver Shipyards. As emphasized by PWGSC, “These upgrades are at no cost to Canada.” 26 They are financed by the shipyards themselves, although each shipyard is receiving some financial assistance from its respective provincial government.27 Shipyard modernization work began in the fall of 2012.28 It was completed at Vancouver Shipyards in November 201429 and is expected to end at Halifax Shipyard by September 2015.30
2.3 The 2012-2013 Preliminary Contracts

Since the signing of the umbrella agreements, several contracts pertaining to specific ship projects have been negotiated and awarded to the two selected shipyards. Preliminary contracts, for example, were awarded to Halifax Shipyard for the Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ships ($9.3 million in July 2012 and $288 million in March 2013)31 and to Vancouver Shipyards for the Joint Support Ships ($1.4 million in August 2012), the Polar Icebreaker ($3.8 million in August 2012) and the Offshore Fisheries Science Vessels ($15 million in February 2013).32 These contracts pertained to the ship designs and to pre-production work at the shipyards.33
2.4 2013 New Ship Announcement

In October 2013, the federal government expanded the large-ship construction program, announcing its selection of Vancouver Shipyards to construct:

    up to 10 additional large non-combat ships for the Canadian Coast Guard fleet at an estimated cost of $3.3 billion … in addition to the already announced Offshore Fisheries Science Vessels, Offshore Oceanographic Science Vessel and … Polar Icebreaker that will be constructed at Vancouver Shipyards for the Canadian Coast Guard.34

This raised the total estimated acquisition cost of the NSPS large-ship construction program to over $36 billion. The new types of ships to be built for the CCG included:

    Medium Endurance Multi-Tasked Vessels (up to five ships); and
    Offshore Patrol Vessels (up to five ships).35

2.5 The 2014-2015 Construction Contracts

The first ship construction contracts were issued:

    in October 2014 to Vancouver Shipyards for the Offshore Fisheries Science Vessels ($5 million for two “initial block” modules to be built and fitted in the first ship);36 and
    in January 2015 to Halifax Shipyard for the Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ships ($2.3 billion).37

Construction of the initial block modules for the first Offshore Fisheries Science Vessel commenced in October 2014.38 The construction of the Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ships is expected to start in September 2015.39

In June 2015, the federal government announced that it had reached an “agreement in principle” with Vancouver Shipyards for the “construction and delivery of three Offshore Fisheries Science Vessels” at a “$400 million target cost,” but with a “ceiling price of $514 million.” It also announced that “full production” of the Offshore Fisheries Science Vessels was “expected to begin shortly.” 40

More here https://lop.parl.ca/Content/LOP/ResearchPublications/2015-35-e.html?cat=international#a4
 
MarkOttawa said:
YZT580:

As for as I know there is no contract with Irving for actual construction of CSCs, nor with Seaspan for the icebreaker.

Mark
Ottawa
You are absolutely correct.  But there was and is a very firm handshake with the stated expectation of contracts associated with it.  That should be enough and if it isn't than our government needs to take a very long step back.
 
What it does mean though is if a yard is falling behind we can give work to say Davie as an example. To keep the program on track
 
MilEME09 said:
What it does mean though is if a yard is falling behind we can give work to say Davie as an example. To keep the program on track

On exactly what would they be falling behind on?  They would have to invest in infrastructure and training of personnel and would be even more behind on a proper warship build.  Oh they could probably build some of the blocks but there is no indication in any way that they could be faster.
 
Underway said:
On exactly what would they be falling behind on?  They would have to invest in infrastructure and training of personnel and would be even more behind on a proper warship build.  Oh they could probably build some of the blocks but there is no indication in any way that they could be faster.

It could be that certain blocks might be built at Davie and shipped to Irving or vis versa. Not that uncommon. That would speed up delivery as more blocks can be constructed at once.
 
Look at the big honkin' ship (26,000t) New Zealand in having built by Hyundai, South Korea--a tweet:
https://twitter.com/NZUN/status/1029398916540784641

NZ at the UN
‏Verified account @NZUN

#HMNZSAotearoa keel-laying ceremony held at Hyundai Heavy Industries in South Korea. Her missions will include humanitarian and disaster relief, support to #UnitedNations security operations and coalition naval task groups, and Antarctic re-supply. @NZDefenceForce
Dkkoe60U4AAanr4.png

More, will enter service 2020--light-wave speed by Canadian standards, eh? Note and weep, cost and speed of acquisition:

...
In July 2016, the Government approved the purchase of a new naval tanker which will be ice-strengthened and winterised for operations in Antarctica. The project will cost $493 million...
http://navy.mil.nz/mtf/aotearoa/default.htm

Mark
Ottawa
 
Tonnage is misleading.  Its ice strengthened and winterized for Antarctica operations.  This ship is much smaller then the JSS.  And its not a combat vessel.  However the cost is not misleading.  Getting Korea to build is basically the cheapest option out there.
 
MarkOttawa said:
Look at the big honkin' ship (26,000t) New Zealand in having built by Hyundai, South Korea--a tweet:
https://twitter.com/NZUN/status/1029398916540784641

More, will enter service 2020--light-wave speed by Canadian standards, eh? Note and weep, cost and speed of acquisition:

Mark
Ottawa

Is this the bmt aegir 26? I think the difference between our Queenston Class was dissected here before. I too was under the impression that no contract had been finalized for the Queenston Class and CSC, surprising that approval to proceed on the Queenston given that.
 
Davie VP: Irving Shipbuilding ‘like a naughty child asking if his mummy still loves him’

A longstanding spat between two of Canada’s largest shipyards has been heating up — name calling and all — and experts say it’s likely to get worse.

Last week, Quebec-based shipbuilder Chantier Davie Canada Inc. won a $610-million contract to convert three icebreakers for the Canadian Coast Guard.

During a news conference in Levis on Friday, Steven MacKinnon, parliamentary secretary for public services and procurement Canada, told reporters that other shipyards, including Davie, will continue to have opportunities to win work as part of the National Shipbuilding Strategy (NSS).

Some media outlets that reported on the event framed MacKinnon’s statements as a retooling of the overall strategy — a massive multibillion-dollar, decades-long endeavour — that could see Davie possibly inch its way into work that has already been awarded to other shipyards.

During the news conference, a Davie executive also alluded to an NSS ‘refresh’ that the company claims to have been informed by government will be announced in the fall.

All this was cause for concern for Irving Shipbuilding in Halifax, which was named prime contractor for the combat portion of the NSS in 2011 and has been tasked with building six Arctic and offshore patrol ships and 15 new warships for a cost of around $60 billion.

In a media release issued Monday, Irving spokesman Sean Lewis asked for clarification from the government that the work, and associated jobs, would not be reallocated from Irving or Vancouver-based Seaspan, which is responsible for the smaller non-combat portion of the National Shipbuilding Strategy.

Responding to a request for comment from The Chronicle Herald on Tuesday, Frederik Boisvert, VP of public affairs with Davie, sent two different statements via text message, both of which he attempted to rescind saying they were draft statements that weren’t intended to be sent.

In one of those messages, Boisvert says the ‘long-awaited reform’ of the 2011 NSS that is soon to be announced has tensions running high at the offices of Davies’ competitor.

“So much so that Irving Shipbuilding, like a naughty child asking if his mummy still loves him, published a press release <...> asking the government to confirm that all was still OK.”

He then goes on to say the umbrella agreements between Irving and Seaspan are non-binding and that the government has a free hand in determining where to build its ships.

In a third and final statement, Boisvert commends the federal government for a long-awaited reform of its shipbuilding plans and touts the benefits of having Davie as a partner in the ‘new National Shipbuilding Strategy.’

By many accounts, however, there is no new strategy or reformation that has been announced or has yet to be announced.

The Office of Procurement Minister Carla Qualtrough confirmed on Monday and reiterated on Tuesday: the announcement Friday did not make any changes to the strategy and the work at Irving and Seaspan remains and will continue to remain unchanged.

But when MacKinnon was pressed by reporters on Friday about whether the rumoured refresh of the NSS was coming, and whether that meant more work for Davie, he was vague.

More peculiar still, back in March, The Chronicle Herald reported on a political poll that asked Halifax residents, in between questions about their MP’s performance, how important Irving continuing its role as the primary contractor on the National Shipbuilding Strategy is in deciding their vote. At the time, the NDP and Conservative parties both denied that the poll was theirs, and the Liberal party would not comment.

David Perry, senior analyst with the Canadian Global Affairs Institute, told The Chronicle Herald that although many people equate the NSS with the work being done by Irving and Seaspan, the project was always about the larger picture.

All shipyards in Canada have always had the opportunity to bid on repair, maintenance and refit work related to the NSS, and even for new builds for smaller vessels.

The work awarded to Davie thus far, the icebreakers as well as converting a commercial container ship — MV Asterix — into an interim auxiliary naval replenishment ship, has all fallen under those categories, Perry said, and does not in any way signal a change in the program.

“When the government talks about the shipbuilding strategy they mostly talk about the major packages of work, they don’t talk about all the other repair refit maintenance stuff,” he said. “(Davie) has always been eligible for the other stuff.”

So if there has been no change to the shipbuilding strategy, why is it being framed that way?

Ken Hansen, a retired navy commander and defence analyst, says it’s par for the course.

“There’s no love lost between these two companies. It’s warfare as far as they’re concerned, there’s really deep and old animosity between them,” he said.

Davie, which was emerging from bankruptcy when the NSS contracts were awarded in 2011, has long called foul on the Irving contract, but according to Hansen the rift between the two companies goes back decades, as one might expect of two competing companies in a relatively limited industry.

Hansen thinks the spin by Davie is simply a PR move to gain support among politicians.

“There is no change to the way this is working, but (Davie) is trying to make it look that way for political gain. They need allies, they’re still trying to crack this nut — they want back into where the big money is and the big money is all in Irving’s hands,” he said.

“They’re trying to build momentum to give the politicians the courage to reopen this issue.”

Hansen said it’s too early to tell if Davie will be successful, but cautioned that any change will cause a lot of unrest and even more delays in delivering ships the navy needs.

“They can’t start pulling this apart and cutting pieces of the carcass to send to a third place, which is what always happens in this country,” he said.

As for the rumours, spin, and drama, Hansen said it will get worse unless the government offers full clarity on the issue,

“It’s been really bad in the past and what you’re seeing here is an indication it’s going to get worse,” he said. “They’re playing games and the government has got to sort it out quick.”
http://thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/1590811-davie-vp-irving-shipbuilding-%E2%80%98like-a-naughty-child-asking-if-his-mummy-still-love
 
The simple, undeniable fact is that neither Seaspan nor Irving have any capacity to build anything new in the next 10yrs in Seaspans case and 20+yrs in Irving’s case beyond the already identified needs for the CSC, JSS, 3 fisheries ships, the science vessel and The Def.
However, our clapped out Coast Guard needs a complete refresh and the Kingston class is already 20+ yrs old and we’ll need to completely replace them well, well before Irving will be finished with the 15 CSC’s.  So, there is plenty of work leftover for Davie and others to bid on and win.
I can only imagine that the Kingston replacements will be over 1200 tons and 20+ knots and there will be 10-14 of them most likely.
 
Czech_pivo said:
The simple, undeniable fact is that neither Seaspan nor Irving have any capacity to build anything new in the next 10yrs in Seaspans case and 20+yrs in Irving’s case beyond the already identified needs for the CSC, JSS, 3 fisheries ships, the science vessel and The Def.
However, our clapped out Coast Guard needs a complete refresh and the Kingston class is already 20+ yrs old and we’ll need to completely replace them well, well before Irving will be finished with the 15 CSC’s.  So, there is plenty of work leftover for Davie and others to bid on and win.
Seaspan is also going to build up to ten offshore patrol vessels and medium endurance multi-tasked vessels.  So they too might be running at full capacity for at least the next twenty years.  So is the plan to wait until the icebreakers are at least seventy-years old before replacing them?  I agree with you.  There is enough work for Irving, Seaspan, and Davie.
 
Uzlu:

...
Seaspan is also going to build up to ten offshore patrol vessels and medium endurance multi-tasked vessels.  So they too might be running at full capacity for at least the next twenty years.  So is the plan to wait until the icebreakers are at least seventy-years old before replacing them?  I agree with you.  There is enough work for Irving, Seaspan, and Davie.

Or, to save a whole ton of taxpayer money, esp. with regard to CCG vessels where few national security angles apply, why not just buy abroad? But this is Canada and those actually crewing vessels must wait...and wait...and wait...because of our hopeless politics and lack of serious media and public concern/attention:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pYG1Vbgq0o

Mark
Ottawa
 
MarkOttawa said:
Or, to save a whole ton of taxpayer money, esp. with regard to CCG vessels where few national security angles apply, why not just buy abroad? But this is Canada and those actually crewing vessels must wait...and wait...and wait...because of our hopeless politics and lack of serious media and public concern/attention
Yes, having, say, fifteen icebreakers built abroad will save lots of money for taxpayers.  But why have icebreakers been built in Canada?  Put yourself in Trudeau’s shoes.  Make a public announcement that you will spend, say, twenty-billion dollars overseas for, say, two polar class 2 icebreakers, seven polar class 3 icebreakers, and six polar class 4 icebreakers.
 
When all those enraged Seaspan and Davie shipbuilders go up to you and start complaining, what are you going to say to them?  What about all of the other Canadian businesses that work with Seaspan and Davie?  What if employees of these companies go up to you and start complaining?  What are you going to say to them?
 
I am sorry you got laid off.  I did it to save taxpayers some money.  Please vote for me in the next election, because I really do care about you and your family that you are trying to support.
 
Well, that's what an excellent CEO of a well-run company would do if we're looking at this from a business lens.

What I'm not seeing (and maybe others can correctly point this out to me), is Irving and/or Seaspan increasing capacity in any manner - and what I mean by capacity, is the ability to be laying down more than 1 keel at a time.  If Seaspan and Irving want to be building all these other ships that are needed outside of the currently identified ones (all Coast Guard, Kingston replacements, etc), then propose a solution (that is realistic and be held, feet to the fire, accountable) to speed up the timelines to complete the AOPS, CSC, JSS, etc in order for you to win and build the necessary Coast Guard and Kingston class replacements.
As it stands now, the timeline to complete the last CSC is well into the 2040's......who the hell can wait 20-25years to start replacing the Kingston's?  Oh wait, we did something similar already with the Cyclone's when the EH101 was cancelled at a cost of 500 million back in 1993 and we are now celebrating the first overseas deployment of a Cyclone 25yrs later....
 
The Liberals want to 'refresh' the shipbuilding strategy. What does that mean?

Recent comments by a parliamentary secretary had Irving asking for a public commitment to the strategy

The federal government has been quietly debating a "refresh" of its marquee — but troubled — national shipbuilding strategy, federal documents reveal.

A memorandum to the deputy minister of Finance, obtained by CBC News under access to information legislation, notes there was "tangible progress" in ship construction last year, but also references impending production gaps at the two designated shipyards: Irving-owned Halifax Shipyard and Seaspan in Vancouver.

The size and scope of the "policy refresh" was not made clear in the heavily redacted memo, dated Jan. 23, 2018. Officials at Public Services and Procurement Canada were asked to explain, but did not produce a response by Tuesday evening.

As recently as last week, government officials were insisting they were still committed to the strategy.

Still 'broken'?

During the last election campaign, the Liberals pledged to fix the "broken" procurement system and invest heavily in the navy.

Conceived under the Conservatives but embraced by the Liberals, the national shipbuilding strategy has been plagued by delays and ballooning cost estimates in the building of both warships and civilian vessels.

Critics have long complained it would be cheaper and faster for Canada to buy offshore from foreign competitors.

It also remains unclear whether the build-in-Canada provision that is at the heart of the strategy is up for consideration in the reset.

Much of the icebreaking fleet belonging to the coast guard is in need of replacement — a critical gap that led the government recently to set aside $610 million for the refurbishment of three commercial ships.

Similarly, the navy has been forced to lease a replenishment ship because of delays associated with the Joint Support Ship program.

Confidential sources in the defence community said the review is being driven partly by a yet-to-be completed assessment of the coast guard, which has — according to a 2015 statutory assessment — among the oldest coast guard fleets in the world.

The retooled policy is expected to be ready this fall, the sources said, and will also encompass updated budget estimates and timelines for delivery.

Last spring, CBC News reported the federal government had received a revised delivery schedule for vessels being constructed at Seaspan. But it refused to release it.

The new timetable, which apparently forecasts delays outside of the company's control, is politically sensitive. It speaks to issues at the heart of the breach-of-trust case against Vice Admiral Mark Norman, the military's second-highest commander — in particular, the program's inability to deliver ships in a timely manner.

Irving asks for clarification

The new questions about the future of the strategy come just days after Irving Shipbuilding issued a terse public statement, asking the federal government to clarify comments by Steve MacKinnon, the parliamentary secretary to the public works minister.

While unveiling the icebreaker deal on Friday, officials with Chantier-Davie, the company doing the refurbishment, suggested it would now be able to bid on projects under the shipbuilding strategy.

MacKinnon described the Levis, Que., yard as a solid partner in the system. But under the shipbuilding strategy, the Davie yard is allowed to bid on repair and refit work — not on construction of new vessels.

"The men and women of the Halifax Shipyard are concerned that these remarks signal the possible redirection of shipbuilding work out of Atlantic Canada," Irving Shipbuilding said in a written statement, issued late Monday.

"We call upon the federal government to confirm to Irving Shipbuilding, our shipbuilders and their families, the Province of Nova Scotia, and all Atlantic Canadians that the National Shipbuilding Strategy remains intact and, therefore, construction of the ships for Canada's Navy and Coast Guard will be done exclusively by Irving Shipbuilding and Vancouver Shipyards."

The federal government apparently has responded to the Irving statement by signalling its support for the strategy.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/liberals-shipbuilding-navy-refresh-1.4785465
 
Czech_pivo said:
What I'm not seeing (and maybe others can correctly point this out to me), is Irving and/or Seaspan increasing capacity in any manner - and what I mean by capacity, is the ability to be laying down more than 1 keel at a time.  If Seaspan and Irving want to be building all these other ships that are needed outside of the currently identified ones (all Coast Guard, Kingston replacements, etc), then propose a solution (that is realistic and be held, feet to the fire, accountable) to speed up the timelines to complete the AOPS, CSC, JSS, etc in order for you to win and build the necessary Coast Guard and Kingston class replacements.
As it stands now, the timeline to complete the last CSC is well into the 2040's......who the hell can wait 20-25years to start replacing the Kingston's?
There are no incentives for Irving and Seaspan to expand capacity.  If, however, the Liberals say to Irving and Seaspan that they will be awarding new ship-building contracts and at a faster rate, then there is an incentive to expand capacity.  But the Liberals must also say that these new contracts will never be awarded to Davie.
 
Uzlu said:
There are no incentives for Irving and Seaspan to expand capacity.  If, however, the Liberals say to Irving and Seaspan that they will be awarding new ship-building contracts and at a faster rate, then there is an incentive to expand capacity.  But the Liberals must also say that these new contracts will never be awarded to Davie.

Perhaps this refresh should amend things so that shipyards incur penalties for missing key mile stones/ delivery dates, with costs going up maybe it might be a way to try and get them to get back on track.
 
"There are no incentives for Irving and Seaspan to expand capacity.  If, however, the Liberals say to Irving and Seaspan that they will be awarding new ship-building contracts and at a faster rate, then there is an incentive to expand capacity.  But the Liberals must also say that these new contracts will never be awarded to Davie."

Sure there's an incentive for them to expand capacity - its called losing out on contracts to Davie et al - which it sounds like there might be the possibility of this occurring - which is good, as competition drives innovation, new technologies, better quality and quicker to market.  I'm glad that Davie is sounding off, winning contracts and stirring the pot - complacency leads to stagnation, lack of innovation and ultimately failure. 
 
Some of the delays at Seaspan are design related and I am not sure who is responsible for those design issues, as far as I am aware the design is given to the yard and they build to it and argue over smaller issues. Rumour has it that there are stability issues with the designs of the fisheries vessel, which would be of no surprise as most government vessels are top heavy.

Current OFSV #2 https://twitter.com/seaspan/status/1027230643191799808

JSS gallery is up http://www.seaspan.com/nss-progress-galleries/nss-photo-gallery-jss-1
 
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