Need info with this old Explosive Ordnance

[Ammo]

As suggested by recceguy (http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/1401.300.html), I would like to start a new thread aimed at assisting members in finding information on Explosive Ordnance (EO) that they have in their possession, know someone that have some (war souvenirs) or need proper identification as part of their job.

This is not aimed at "guessing" on the EO, as you would be required to provide specific info on what the item is, such as: marking, colour coding, dimensions, pictures... . Keep in mind that I don't have the DS solution on the EO in question, but I might be able to assist.

So here is the first challenge (again I don't have any technical info on the EO).

Many of those were found in a "pit" during a clearance of a rocket range in Borden. Here is one picture of the item. It is a full caliber 66mm, not the sub-caliber. The markings on the item are "WARHEAD 66MM ROCKET PRACTICE M19" "LOADED 8/61" "LS-DZ-239"; and "XM54" on the rocket motor, leading me to believe that these were manufactured to test the rocket motor and/or rocket launcher during its development phase. This is the first place (Borden) that these were ever found (that I know of). Furthermore, it would be interesting to know why they stop producing practice version, cost not being a factor, but rather safer during clean-up/range clearances and to help preserving the targets.
Anyhow, any help would be greatly appreciated

 

[Ammo]

Time for an update on subject EO. Info provided as follows:
Well, this one is a challenge. At this point we can't find no data on the M19, but obviously it does exist. The 1961 manufacture date happens to be the year that the M72 LAW was adopted by the US Army. Development of the LAW began in 1958, so this is certainly an early production item. The Canadians, according to my references, adopted the LAW in the early 1970’s.
The “LS” in the lot number is the code for the Lone Star Army Ammunition Plant, which did assemble/load the 66mm M72’s. However, I have no reference to the “DZ” marking that makes any sense. The XM designation in the XM54 rocket motor is one used by the US and very few others.
I also have a vague reference to the Dutch having a similar round with a DZ marking on it. My recall on the manual though is that it has the subcaliber system in it.
My GUESS is that this is an US production item, early in the development of the LAW system. It was no doubt produced as an experimental item and in very limited quantities. The “XM” number only means that the rocket motor was a developmental item, not the complete round. I would assume that either because of cost or shipping/storage space, etc., that the US abandoned this full caliber practice round for the current subcaliber approach. I would also assume that we provided practice rounds to Canada for their evaluation. Since this version was evidently what we were playing with at the time, the M19 was what we provided to Canada for evaluation and/or firing practice. If we were providing the LAWs to Canada, it only makes sense that when we converted to the M73 subcaliber system that the M19 disappeared from both countries inventories. Since most of the external surface of the rounds are aluminum they could lay out on a range for a long, long time and still look as good as this one on the surface.

This info obviously raises more questions, such as: Why were these only found in Borden (because the Infantry School was here at the time!!!)? Were they fired here by the US to test firing in cold weather or where they fired by CF as part of trials?

So, would any members recall having come across any of these or heard of this item?

Better pictures shown below.

 

[Old Sweat]

I can't provide any technical input, but in regards to this in the previous post

"Well, this one is a challenge. At this point we can't find no data on the M19, but obviously it does exist. The 1961 manufacture date happens to be the year that the M72 LAW was adopted by the US Army. Development of the LAW began in 1958, so this is certainly an early production item. The Canadians, according to my references, adopted the LAW in the early 1970’s."

I clearly remember firing a M72 HE in Germany in early-1967 while serving in A Battery 1 RCHA. At that stage the 3.2-inch RLs had been withdrawn from service and replaced by the Carl Gustav in the mechanized battalions in 4 CIBG. The other units made do with the M72, at least in the interim.

 

[Geordie]

Old Sweat, did you have any experience with the 3.2 inch Heller as well? We're trying to amass info on those as well, and any help would be greatly apprectiated! Can I ask how or what your exposure to the 66mm M72 was? Impressions, how it was conducted, anything really. This whole 66mm practice rocket is stirring up a bit of a qunadry around the world amongst interested parties.

Geordie

 

[Old Sweat]

I had very little experience with the 3.2-in other than having one in my troop. It spent most of its time in its storage box. I remember running through the drills with it and attempting to master the range finder sight, but that is it.

My initial exposure to the M72 was limited to a couple of lectures followed by the members of the battery each firing one. Our target was an old Brit tank about 100 metres away from us. Most of us successfully hit it, although I figured my hit on the mantlet just beside the gun would have done little other than annoy the crew.

 

[Geordie]

It still leaves some un-anwered questions, but here is some additional info from NammoTalley Inc. on this 66mm rocket:

You may, or most likely not know, that the M72 LAW system was derived from a rifle grenade that the US developed in the 1950s.  I have an old USMC infantry manual some where that has a picture of what looks very much like an M72 rocket on the barrel of the service rifle ready to fire.

The history of the LAW program included utilizing the basic components that were in storage for the rifle grenade.  The Army program to develop the self-contained LAW was sold on using existing inventories that exceeded 700,000 warheads (called M19).  It was later in the program that Picatinny indicated they did not want to use the M19's and wanted to develop another better warhead.  Initially, Eastern Tool and Manufacturing Company made the warhead until Picatinny developed a precision cone, and that is when MB Associates became involved in the program.  Contrary to the Wikipedia article, the original LAW was developed by the Hesse-Eastern company.  Talley joined the program in
1981 to lead the effort that replaced the M72A2 / M72A3 rounds with the new, upgraded M72A4, A5, A6, A7, and M72A9 ASM rounds now in service.

Development of the M72 was started in 1959, with development and qualification tests continuing until the system was Type Classified in late 1962.  Production of the basic M72 up through M72A2 was done by Lone Star AAP.  They did load some inert warheads in 1961; they were rifle grenade warheads, M19's, containing an M210 fuze, which was a predecessor to the M412 fuze.  The nose cap was slightly dome-shaped as opposed to the current item, which is flat.  The rounds were loaded with a red-wax/resin material, which simulated the weight and density of Comp B and, of course, the specific gravity.  These warheads were loaded on motors that were not yet qualified and were sometimes used for qualification of other components.  The XM designation on the motor indicates an experimental or engineering modification to the standard item, and the closure (joint between the warhead and the motor case) is different than the version that went into production.

No one remembers ever shipping them to Canada, or anwhere else for that matter, other than US Army testing.  We do know there was a test run at Ft. Churchill in Canada and, of course, we did the cold qualification at Ft. Greeley, Alaska.  Final qualification used the newly developed warhead for the LAW system, and not the rifle grenade warhead.  If these rounds were loaded at Day & Zimmermann in 1961, as indicated by the marking, these rounds had to be used for some form of testing and/or interim qualification of other components.  Only a small quantity of the M19's were ever loaded, according to some of oour old team members who worked the basic QT and production programs, and again they did not inert load many M19's.  Most of them were sent to our test range for various tests, many of which were done at ranges located on Cape Cod and part of Otis Air Force Base outside of Falmouth, Massachusetts.

 

[Geordie]

And here's a photo of the two side by side.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Hmmm..... interesting that they ended up in Borden, that is away from where the article post by Geordie states as Fort Churchill is located on Hudson Bay.

Fort Churchill – a landmark in Canadian space research


Fort Churchill is located on the edge of the arctic tundra near Hudson Bay, at the geographical centre of North America. Formerly a trading post, this northern Manitoba community was one of the first sites to be colonized in Canada. However, Fort Churchill has been practically deserted since 1985. All that's left is an airport, a railway and a few official buildings, including an ecotourism centre and a geomagnetic observatory.

But during the 1950s at the height of the Cold War, close to 4,500 people, mostly military personnel and Canadian and U.S. research scientists, lived and worked in Fort Churchill. In 1954,  the Canadian Army decided  to establish a base for studying atmospheric phenomena using sounding rockets since it was one of the best locations in the world for observing the northern lights. 

Thus Fort Churchill contributed to the creation of the Canadian Space Program. Canada and the United States used this small community for many years as a launch site for sounding rockets. Fort Churchill welcomed a multitude of life- and earth-science research programs during the decades that followed.

The site was expanded in 1956 during International Geophysical Year. The United States took part in the expansion and the base became the largest jointly managed Canada–U.S. military installation in the world. From July 1957 to December 1958, the international scientific community took advantage of a period of intense solar activity to increase its knowledge of solar–terrestrial relationships.

In 1959, the Canadian company Bristol Aerospace launched the first Black Brant rocket, which became enormously successful in the field of airborne space research. Fort Churchill became the most advanced centre for atmospheric research in the world. Over the years, more than 3,500 suborbital flights were launched from the site. 

In 1960, a fire destroyed most of the facilities and the U.S. Army temporarily moved its launches to another location. In 1965, the National Research Council of Canada (NRC) acquired the base to support the Canadian Upper Atmosphere Research Program. During the 1970s and 1980s, the site was used sporadically for scientific research and survival training trips. The Canadian Army also used the site to carry out research on the ionosphere and telecommunications.

Now practically deserted, Fort Churchill remains a landmark in the history of Canadian space research.

 

[Geordie]

Yes, that's what has us wondering at the school. How and why did they end up here? Many moons ago the Infantry School was here. Were they part of the initial trials for the Canadian Army at the time? How many where procured? Why exactly? So far, we have no other known instances of these items showing up anywhere else in Canada. So far. There is some associated research going on through the national Archives, but whether or not it will reveal anything is yet to be seen. There seems to be very little info anywhere on these so far. Something buried away deep in the archives somewhere perhaps, just waiting to be found. Similiar model found in the Netherlands but with a live fuze. Just something to get ordnance folks' noses twitching to find out more. Ya, I need to get a life

 

[geo]

Methinks you'll probably find other copies ou at DREV / CRDV (Valcartier) where they work on balistics and rocketry..... (anyone remember Dr Gerard Bull of HARP and project Babylon (Iraqi supergun)... unfortunately, the friend I had there has retired & dissapeared off the face of the world...

 

[Ammo]

Thanks for the suggestion, Geo, but I have already checked and they have nothing. There are also no indications that DREV/CRDV was involved in the development of the rocket in the early stage.

 

[geo]

Ahhh... check
T'was a thought - esp with IVI being next door

 

[Ammo]

geo,
Thanks for the suggestion. By the way, for the record, IVI has been closed for quite some times, renamed SNC and moved to SNC Ville Legardeur, wch has since been bought by General Dynamics and renamed again General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems-Canada Inc (GD-OTS Canada)
Check their web site http://www.gd-otscanada.com/

 

[geo]

yeah... I know that... but, at the time this ordonance was being developed - IVI was a happening place, making ammo for the Cdn and US armies.

 

[aesop081]

Gents of the ammo persuasion......

I hold in my hand a 76mm casing with the following markings

76mm ARMDC
RW175
Lot 1-22 IVI
1982

I am assuming that it is for the Cougar 76mm gun.

?

 

[George Wallace]

Gents of the ammo persuasion......

I hold in my hand a 76mm casing with the following markings

76mm ARMDC
RW175
Lot 1-22 IVI
1982

I am assuming that it is for the Cougar 76mm gun.

?

Are those numbers are painted or stamped into the base?

For instance, a 76mm HESH-T round for the Cougar would be marked similar to this:

ENGRAVED/STAMPED

    76mm ARMD.C
            C9


    CAO87FO6-07

PAINTED in black

    HESH-T
  CA-88K15-02
      L29A5


I am sure that what you have is a Cougar casing.  Got a photo of the casing and the base?

 

[aesop081]

Are those numbers are painted or stamped into the base?

Stamped on the base. Here are the pictures i just took of it.

 

[1feral1]

Hello generous happy members and respected guests,

WRT the M20A1 3.5in RL. In July 1980, MILCON Dundurn, I was atatched to the Engr/Med Gp. We were the last mob in the CF to use the last HEAT 3.5 ammo in the system.

I have Pams on this monster if anyone needs any info.

The 1st M72's used by the CF (seen one last month) were of the first type, with a much more primitive sights and tube with external cabling, and 'Cdn Army' marked. This one was dated 1967, a very dark OD in colour, and with a bright RED 'Cdn Army' ID sicker on it.

The overall length was pretty much the same as the M72A1. Now with the A6 in service (at least here in Australia), ther has been much improvements not only to the front and rear sights, but the rocket is longer and has an improved warhead.

OWDU's 2 cents.

happy days - its Friday!

 

[George Wallace]

Looks like a buffed up Cougar 76mm Casing to me.  If it had not been buffed up so fine, you would still see the Ammo type painted on the base.  A couple of less shiny photos:

 

[AmmoTech90]

Yep,

It's for the 76mm gun that was mounted on the Cougar (and Scorpion).  The give away is the ARMD C indication used to differentiate it from all the other 76mm in service.