NDHQ Dress Code

[ltmaverick25]

You want to talk looking professional? Lets talk about all the CADPAT fatties walking around the NCR before we worry about Cpl Bloggins' sneaker style.

You make a good point here.  While I am in favor of the dress code; all the proper dress in the world isnt going to help make you look like a professional soldier, sailer or aircrew if your tugging a massive beer belly.

 

[NL_engineer]

The custom of wearing ciilian dress in Ottawa is a fairly old one: going back more than a half century. At one time staff at NDHQ wore uniforms only once a week - even less often, in some cases.

Well I would have said high end Business Suits, but that would require a clothing allowance for all the worn out knees.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Well I would have said high end Business Suits ...

That was the standard. Clerks and storesmen wore jacket and tie.

You know the definition of high quality, Saville Row, tailoring, right? "It looks like it was made twenty years ago for somebody else."

... that would require a clothing allowance for all the worn out knees.

Sad to say that careerism was, and almost certainly still is, rampant in Ottawa; your point is well taken.

 

[Haggis]

The custom of wearing ciilian dress in Ottawa is a fairly old one: going back more than a half century. At one time staff at NDHQ wore uniforms only once a week - even less often, in some cases.

From the standard at which many maintain their DEU, I can see this as a palatable "custom" in such circles.

The custom was/is not restricted to Ottawa. It applied, equally, in London and Wellington (NZ) and, I think, in Canberra and, maybe, New Delhi, too.

So, what?  Institutionally, we seem to shun the adoption/maintenance of American "customs", but we cling stubbornly to British ones.  Why?

It may be a bad idea but it is a well established one.

Doesn't mean I have to like it... and I don't!

-------------------------

I'm with Cobra 6, too: fatties in CADPAT are offensive and I think some reasonable, neat, fairly casual/comfortable "garrison dress" would be much better.

Tangent Begins.

Why should we accept "fatties" at NDHQ in garrison dress rather than CADPAT?  Why not just get them fit?  If people at NDHQ spent as much time doing PT as the spent in finding was to avoid it, we wouldn't have this problem.

Tangent ends.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

 

[Edward Campbell]

...
Why should we accept "fatties" at NDHQ in garrison dress rather than CADPAT?  Why not just get them fit?  If people at NDHQ spent as much time doing PT as the spent in finding was to avoid it, we wouldn't have this problem.
...

That - acceptable levels of fitness/deportment - is, of course, both the real problem and the real solution involves getting people trim and fit, or getting them out of the military, not just letting them out of close fitting uniforms.

I still have an objection to operational dress in offices, but it is related to cost. When we had the old combat uniforms I knew, because I saw the cost data as part of my job, that the only uniforms that cost more were mess kit and full dress. I suspect the same is true today. Clerks working in the pay office or mid-ranked staff officers slaving away on the next generation TACVEST in DLR do not need to wear CADPAT.

 

[aesop081]

I starting to notice a trend here, and am beginning to suspect that a prerequisite for promotion to a senior NCO or senior officer is the signing of a declaration that states that you truly believe that a $15 golf shirt tucked into $25 khakis is "dressing nice".

Well, this Senior NCO has signed no such thing and will be more than happy to stop enforcing such rules as soon as they are removed. Until then, i will enforce orders as i am expected to.

 

[dapaterson]

DEU is still much cheaper than CADPAT, but it requires personal efort to maintain, so CADPAT remains the dress of the day.  I'd posit that once a week for ruck marches in the HQ, to keep people fit would be fine.  But, if you're on a chit for no PT, DEUs for you.  (Any shortages of CADPAT nowdays?  Anyone think that getting the HQ properly attired might mitigate that, in part?)

Here's an ATI request: for the Land Staff, by rank group, the completion rates for the BFT...

The "Operational mindset" canard is bunk.  My unscientific survey of the land staff has seen no one speak about that; it's only ever been an easier standard of dress.

 

[gcclarke]

I would like to clarify that when I brought up the "operational mindset" point, I was referring specifically to the dot coms. Land staff is another issue.

 

[Snakedoc]

Clerks working in the pay office or mid-ranked staff officers slaving away on the next generation TACVEST in DLR do not need to wear CADPAT.

I agree, office dress for office work!

 

[vonGarvin]

You want to talk looking professional? Lets talk about all the CADPAT fatties walking around the NCR before we worry about Cpl Bloggins' sneaker style.

Well said!

 

[dapaterson]

I would like to clarify that when I brought up the "operational mindset" point, I was referring specifically to the dot coms. Land staff is another issue.

Dot coms operational?  In that hotbed of operational reality, Startop?


They're static domestic HQs that plan operations.  If wearing the wrong set of pants makes them less operationally focussed, we've got the wrong people there.  " I was going to co-ordinate the handover from 3-08 to 1-09, but then I realized I was wearing DEUs."

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108598/

 

[gcclarke]

If you don't think that what people are wearing can make a difference, then why exactly would we bother with this whole dress and deportment thing at all? Make the new dress of the day your bathrobes? I'm not saying that it's going to be the single determining factor, but it can change not only how a group interacts amongst themselves, but how others interact with them.

 

[dapaterson]

If you don't think that what people are wearing can make a difference, then why exactly would we bother with this whole dress and deportment thing at all? Make the new dress of the day your bathrobes? I'm not saying that it's going to be the single determining factor, but it can change not only how a group interacts amongst themselves, but how others interact with them.

The military has norms and standards for dress and deportment - true.  The dot COMs decision to dress in operational dress was purely an ego-driven thing - "Look at us - We're operational."

Putting on DEUs requires you to take time, do preparations, and ensure you meet a standard for professionalism.  CADPAT lets you roll out of bed in your uniform.  I've worked in HQs with both.  If you're in KAF or working on pre-deployment, CADPAT is fine.  Otherwise, it should be DEU.

Sidebar issue: most of the static HQs spend too much time emailing and "HQ-ing"; they should be out ensuring maintenance of their soldier skills (for the Army) on a more regular basis.  Say a day a month or so - to avoid the embarassing situation that still happens, where a long-in-the-tooth major visits the range and announces that he's not familiar with the "new" rifle - that's been in service for 20 years now...


Back on topic, I said it before, and I'll say it again:

If wearing the wrong set of pants makes them less operationally focussed, we've got the wrong people there.

 

[gcclarke]

Sidebar issue: most of the static HQs spend too much time emailing and "HQ-ing"; they should be out ensuring maintenance of their soldier skills (for the Army) on a more regular basis.  Say a day a month or so - to avoid the embarassing situation that still happens, where a long-in-the-tooth major visits the range and announces that he's not familiar with the "new" rifle - that's been in service for 20 years now...

Most of the complaints in this thread have really been personnel complaints, not dress complaints. If the problem is that someone is lazy, hasn't fired a weapon, taken a first aid course, or seen their feet for a decade, then it doesn't bloody well matter what order of dress they wear to the office on a daily basis.

 

[SupersonicMax]

IMO, what someone wears to the mess, or anywhere for that matter doesn't make that person.  His attitude and his actions speak much more of him.  If someone is a jackass, he won't get more respect from me because he's dressed nicely in the mess.

I find we focus way to much on how we look when there are much more important things to take care of.

 

[40below]

Just to take this on a tangent, I got back from two days of grad/commissioning at RMC, and aside from the people in DEUs (I won't talk about the number of officers with a front ass, although there were a few), I was the only one wearing a tie and jacket. The clothes I wear to change the oil in the car were better than most people wore to the graduation or commissioning. I wouldn't even think about wearing cut-offs, a short with a witty message like "How do you keep a moron in suspense?" and a beer hat, but that's what the stands were full of, pretty much, and not for the first time. Looked kind of sad when they posed with a cadet in 1As.

I spoke to my wife about this, whose brother went through RMC in the 90s, and she remembers having to take two pressed dresses to commissioning - one to wear and a second in case the first one got rained on, as often happens in May in Kingston.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Wow what a thread.
For the life of me the last time I was at NDHQ to finalize an end of tour claim I don't remember there being a dress code. I'm sure the gigantic signs were there and the dress code was in place but I missed it.  I'm sure I wore a T-shirt and jeans back then, no one said anything.
 
I don't own a pair of dress shoes, I don't really have a need for them. I'm not cheap mind you, I've put a few hundred into a chest rig. I've bought a few pairs of my own desert boots for use overseas (unlike some of the types who want sexy boots and find ways for he CF to pay for em) I've put a lot of money into kit that I got a lot of use out of. Buying a set of clothes for a 15 minute meeting thats gonna likely leave me wanting to choke myself with my own white cotton sports socks? Pass.

I however DO remember last tour going to NDHQ and being jerked around having to wait 8 or 9 months for them to give me my claims and such. That's after being passed around to a few people landing with some civilian prick who jacked up my wife for bugging him (by that time I was on course and asked her for help trying to get a hold of buddy who never answers the phone or returns his calls like a lot of other people in the building).

"What the hell is wrong with you guys, you just got off tour you should have money in the bank you should have thought ahead and not counted on this money, it's not my fault you can't budget"
It was finally sorted out after (much by chance) it was brought to the attention of a JAG Major or Colonel in Ottawa who called the prick civilians boss and had words with him.

I think the idea of a dress code at frigging clothing stores or CFSU Ottawa is stupid.  Me dressing up to have someone in an ugly cadpat uniform give me a canteen? Ya okay.

In my lowly opinion if NDHQ wants to enforce a dress code then enforce one.  DEUs for military pers. Dressy clothes for civilian employees.  The fact that off duty military personal are held to a dress code yet civilians working there aren't is a dumb double standard, full stop.

Cadpat uniforms aren't 'dressy'.
When you go to a fancy restaurant with a dress code in place your waiters aren't wearing coveralls are they?

 

[ltmaverick25]

IMO, what someone wears to the mess, or anywhere for that matter doesn't make that person.  His attitude and his actions speak much more of him.  If someone is a jackass, he won't get more respect from me because he's dressed nicely in the mess.

I find we focus way to much on how we look when there are much more important things to take care of.

I think that in the military optics are important.  Of course, optics can never be a substitute for substance and competency, but it is a necessary piece of the pie.

On a different note, I do think that if there is a dress code in effect for military personnel who are not in uniform, then that same dress code should be enforced within the civilian employee cadre.  I can just imagine a CF member wearing jeans being told by one of the civies who is also wearing jeans, that they cannot be served because of the jeans!

 

[SupersonicMax]

I think that in the military optics are important.  Of course, optics can never be a substitute for substance and competency, but it is a necessary piece of the pie.

Can you explain why optics are so important?  What benefit does it bring to the organization?

 

[chris_log]

This has actually turned into a hilarious read, at least for me. People COMPLAINING about NOT having to spend time maintaining their uniform? What?

I'd rather spend my evenings doing what I want, not spit shining and ironing my DEU's so someone, somewhere can feel we look 'professional'. I like wearing CADPAT to work, I wore it in an office in Ottawa and I wear it now. It's simple, comfortable and functional. Who cares if you're maintaining trucks, playing cards (cough certain infantry battalion cough) or sitting in a cubicle. I actually think CADPAT looks more 'military' then our bus driver-style DEU's.

As for the other comments re: civvies (forgot to copy/paste them before I started typing), it's really a matter of personal taste. I can walk in my closet and walk out wearing jeans, casual shirt and a pair of dressy shoes (maybe even a blazer, if I had one) and dress sharper then most other people wandering around base in their unit-logo crested golf shirts, double pleated hants hiked up to their nipples and 40 year old loafers. Alas, changing mess dress regs is like trying to move a mountain. I know the RMC guys had a heckuva time trying to get sneakers allowed in to the cafeteria so they didn't have to dress up to go eat (did that ever work out?).

I also noticed a comment about how civvie dress reflects on the type of officer one is. I don't know where that poster works, but thankfully where I am people won't lower their opinion of my leadership skills because they saw me in the mall wearing shorts, t-shirt and flip flops. It's all about dressing for the occasions. Mess dinner = mess dress, less formal mess dinner (like a family dinner etc) = suit and tie or blazer and khakis, having a beer or a bit of dinner should = casual clothes like jeans.