NDHQ Dress Code

[chris_log]

Most Bars in Canada, and many places around the world, have dress codes.

No Hats, no Jeans, no Running shoes etc....

Uhhh. What?

I have never been to a bar, anywhere, that didn't allow jeans. And I've been in alot of bars. It's all in how you dress it up. Most allow sneakers, again, all depends on what they are and how you wear it. 

 

[the 48th regulator]

Uhhh. What?

I have never been to a bar, anywhere, that didn't allow jeans. And I've been in alot of bars. It's all in how you dress it up. Most allow sneakers, again, all depends on what they are and how you wear it. 

Come to Toronto, and do a bar hop.  Not that far from where you live, and see if you can get in with a ball cap, or sneakers, or jeans in some of the joints.

dileas

tess

 

[chris_log]

Come to Toronto, and do a bar hop.  Not that far from where you live, and see if you can get in with a ball cap, or sneakers, or jeans in some of the joints.

dileas

tess

Been there, done that. Darn near had a heart attack when the girl, quite seriously, told us it was 40$ cover. Each. And I was in jeans (no hat though, that's always a no-no in nice places). I'm not a huge fan of Toronto clubbing, I always found it too expensive and underwhealming. I don't fit well into the popped-collar crowd anyways. 

As an aside, holy tangent.

 

[Michael OLeary]

If I can get into rediculously expensive restaurants and nightclubs wearing jeans and a t-shirt (not your old pair of wranglers and "Big Bob's Fish Hut" t-shirt mind you) then why does an officer's mess have to be so....severe. There's a reason young officers avoid the officer's mess, we don't like having to get dressed up to go have a casual beer or dinner (formal events aside).

Isn't it funny, I remember those same arguments being made 20-25 years ago, and now those young officers are the Colonels and Generals still enforcing rules being described as archaic.

Of course, those were the closing days on the period when officers weren't expected to even let it be known that they owned jeans . . . 

"If you are working on your auto and need to go down to Canadian Tire for parts or tools, you should clean up, and put on a jacket and tie to be suitably dressed to be out in public to make your purchases.  Your jeans can be put back on after you are back in the privacy of your garage ...."

Uh, yeah, okay Adjt.    :

I also remember an occasion where my boss and I (a Capt & a Maj) were asked to remove ourselves from the front steps of the Wardroom in Halifax.  We were in CF Greens (that's equivalent to DEU for you young whippersnappers) with sweaters over shirts and ties.  That, apparently, was not of an appropriate standard for us to be in sight when the Admiral was on his way over for lunch.

By comparison, most messes are getting pretty relaxed these days.

 

[chris_log]

In all fairness, when compared to the standards of yesteryear today's messes seem far more lax. Keep in mind though, in many places a pair of (designer) jeans with a shirt, tie, blazer and shoes is considered business attire these days. Maybe I'm more nit-picky because I dress 'modern', hence my displeasure with what I deem to be archaic dress regs.

 

[Loachman]

If I can get into rediculously expensive restaurants and nightclubs wearing jeans and a t-shirt

If I go to a "ridiculously expensive restaurant or night club" I do not want to see people sloppily dressed. Jeans and T-shirt, of any sort, do not cut it. It shows a lack of personal pride, poor manners, and it looks out of place.

why does an officer's mess have to be so....severe.

A shirt with buttons on the front and a collar and trousers made of something other than denim is "severe"? Get real. Seriously.

putting on what is essentially business casual to go have breakfast/lunch/dinner is rediculous.

Why?

And the correct spelling is "ridiculous", by the way.

You're an officer? Then dress like one when entering a military establishment, especially a Mess or a higher headquarters. It doesn't cost any more, and it's no less comfortable. Look somewhat professional, and set an example.

 

[Michael OLeary]

In all fairness, when compared to the standards of yesteryear today's messes seem far more lax. Keep in mind though, in many places a pair of (designer) jeans with a shirt, tie, blazer and shoes is considered business attire these days. Maybe I'm more nit-picky because I dress 'modern', hence my displeasure with what I deem to be archaic dress regs.

Keep in mind that any Mess dress regulations can dictate basic styles, but they can't dictate fashion.  That's why requirements for "jacket and tie" results in the occasional Herb Tarlek.  Similarly, allowed "jeans" opens the door to the eternal fight over what is and isn't acceptable under that description, and who draws the line on borderline cases.  What's the critical determining factor? Would it be cost, style, appearance?  There are too many factors for any simple answer. 

Just because you might claim that you would know what would be acceptable doesn't mean someone else won't push that new limit and the struggle and frustration for all involved continues.  Do you think that "old" Colonel, Major or Captain that takes it upon him or herself to mention to those who are inappropriately dressed that they need to leave really wants to have to do that?

 

[Sig_Des]

CF isn't stuck in the 1950s ref dress is all I'm saying

This kind of makes me giggle. I remember working at ADM (Mat) at LStL, and of course, we had civvy Fridays.

Our team on the floor of course being the hip young Cpls & MCpls surrounded by a sea of MWOs, civvies, and Officer types, our dress was observed and debated by all.

While it was decided that our khakis (and even jeans if we paid for united way) were acceptable, some of our golf shirts were too frayed (how they came out of the store), and we were disgraceful because we weren't tucking them into our pants.

Enter the following friday. 2 of our more senior team members showed up, having decided to follow the spirit of the dress rules, and fresh from a trip to value village, where they had picked up their smashing outfits. Which included:

Plaid wool slacks, Tight-white button up-shirts, uber-skinny ties, heavy- big-button up wool sweater for one, sleeveless sweater-vest for the other, hornrimmed glasses for both, and their hair gelled flat and parted to one side.

Basically, they looked exactly like how you would picture a 1950's accountant.

This dress was readilly accepted, and they were actually complemented on how they were dressed by some.

 

[COBRA-6]

This thread is ridiculous!

We're not talking about mess appropriate dress here, or dining dress, but dress to file a travel claim or draw a new set of CADPAT from CFSU(O) when not wearing the dress of the day (i.e. you're on leave or off duty). The regs in this case are out completely out to lunch. I have personally seen a full Colonel go down to clothing stores and jack up a bin-rat for refusing to serve someone because she was wearing jeans (perfectly acceptable by her employer's dress regs, but not clothing stores!?!). If the standard of dress for CF mbrs while out of uniform in the NCR is such an issue then it is up to the CoC to address/enforce, not a poor Pvt/Cpl in a sea of Sgts Major and Senior Officers. 

You want to talk looking professional? Lets talk about all the CADPAT fatties walking around the NCR before we worry about Cpl Bloggins' sneaker style.

For Fuck Sake!  :

 

[Monsoon]

I starting to notice a trend here, and am beginning to suspect that a prerequisite for promotion to a senior NCO or senior officer is the signing of a declaration that states that you truly believe that a $15 golf shirt tucked into $25 khakis is "dressing nice".

 

[NL_engineer]

What is wrong with dressing decently?

And I do not care how clean or hole-free a T-shirt or pair of jeans is, neither are suitable dress for a major headquarters or an Officers' Mess.

And this coming from a guy who worn a Tux in KAF on New Years Eve.

 

[gcclarke]

I starting to notice a trend here, and am beginning to suspect that a prerequisite for promotion to a senior NCO or senior officer is the signing of a declaration that states that you truly believe that a $15 golf shirt tucked into $25 khakis is "dressing nice".

What would be the alternative? Stipulate that each item of clothing cost a certain amount? The result will be the same, you'll just have people wearing expensive ugly clothing. Dress regulations like this dictate a minimum standard, and if people chose only to meet the minimum standard, for reasons of cost, comfort, or whatever, they're still not in the wrong.

Anyways, time for me to go put on my $25 khakis and my $15 golf shirt and go to work.

 

[Bzzliteyr]

+1 on what Cobra said. 

Once we stop wearing pyjamas at NDHQ and start looking presentable (DEUs) then I think we can complain about someone's civvy dress.

I have 15 years in, I remember the Garrison dress and Tan DEUs and still find they looked 10 times more professional at the HQ level than CADPAT.  In fact now that I am working in an HQ and seeing who we deal with, I will be asking the RSM about dress.  3b short sleeve has never killed anyone and with the points program from Logistik Unicorps you can have an outfit for every day of the week.

And before someone goes on a tangent about having to pay to dry clean said pants, there is no obligation to.  They can be put in the washer and dryer IF you read the label and follow instructions correctly.

 

[Haggis]

The option of wearing civvies on Friday in NDHQ is, in my opinion, idiotic.  NDHQ is the national HQ of the CF, not a venue for a weekly fashion competition.  Even when dressed strictly in accordance with Standing Orders, there is still latitude for judgement on the part of the chain of command, peers and subordinates as to whether a certain piece of apparel is suitable or, worse, trendy enogh for casual wear in today's society.

Ottawa, although not top of the heap, is an expensive place to live.  We need not now "require" our members to purchase civvies in order to "meet the satndard of dress at NDHQ".  A uniform does that very well, thank you, and at the Queen's expense.

 

[Loachman]

And this coming from a guy who worn a Tux in KAF on New Years Eve.

Evening dress for evening wear.

 

[dapaterson]

What is wrong with dressing decently?

And I do not care how clean or hole-free a T-shirt or pair of jeans is, neither are suitable dress for a major headquarters or an Officers' Mess.

I've never understood how tatty, baggy pyjamas on tatty, unkept, overweight staff sends a professional image.  But, it's what the dot COMs and Land Staff seem to want...

 

[ltmaverick25]

If I can get into rediculously expensive restaurants and nightclubs wearing jeans and a t-shirt (not your old pair of wranglers and "Big Bob's Fish Hut" t-shirt mind you) then why does an officer's mess have to be so....severe. There's a reason young officers avoid the officer's mess, we don't like having to get dressed up to go have a casual beer or dinner (formal events aside). Now, I don't have a problem with putting on a dress shirt/polo to go into the 'drinking' side of the mess to spruce up a pair of jeans...but on the other hand putting on what is essentially business casual to go have breakfast/lunch/dinner is rediculous.

The JR's and Sgt's/WO's messes allow more casual wear but the officer's mess (and NDHQ...all other bases I have been on allow jeans, t-shirts etc when conducting buisiness in civvies) seems firmly stuck in the days of pipes, double-breasted suits and 'jolly goods'.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this.  I dont care what you wear to expensive restaurents or night clubs.  Just because pop culture social venues allow certain forms of dress does not mean that the CF has to follow suit.  I am an officer, used to be an NCM, and I beleive 100 percent that if we are going to be on base, in a mess or doing admin that we should adhere to a standard of dress that is higher on the scale then jeans and running shoes.  It comes down to professionalism.  If you are dressing the part of a nightclubbing guru great, go do it in a nightclub.  But when your on base, your not a nightclubbing guru, your an officer and there is a big difference.  I remember years back as an NCM when younger officers would afford themselves the luxury of dressing down, or wearing the same types of jeans and tshirts that us NCMs were wearing.  The result was people stopped taking them seriously.  Others mistakenly assumed they were privates or corporals and spoke to them accordingly and that didnt go over very well either.

Junior officers often comlain, with merit, that nobody takes them seriously.  It is a hurdle that has to be overcome and its pretty hard to do that without the optics.  Obviously being the best dressed person isnt going to help your cause if you are still a useless bag of hammers, but it is my firm beleif that you take away from your own professionalism (assuming you are switched on) by not maintaining a higher standard of dress.

Yes yes yes, in a perfect world it should not matter what you wear.  I get it, really I do, but that world doesnt exist.  Until it does, dress the part.  God forbid you have to wear a golf shirt to have a beer, oh the pain....

 

[Edward Campbell]

The option of wearing civvies on Friday in NDHQ is, in my opinion, idiotic.  NDHQ is the national HQ of the CF, not a venue for a weekly fashion competition.  Even when dressed strictly in accordance with Standing Orders, there is still latitude for judgement on the part of the chain of command, peers and subordinates as to whether a certain piece of apparel is suitable or, worse, trendy enogh for casual wear in today's society.

Ottawa, although not top of the heap, is an expensive place to live.  We need not now "require" our members to purchase civvies in order to "meet the satndard of dress at NDHQ".  A uniform does that very well, thank you, and at the Queen's expense.

The custom of wearing ciilian dress in Ottawa is a fairly old one: going back more than a half century. At one time staff at NDHQ wore uniforms only once a week - even less often, in some cases.

The custom was/is not restricted to Ottawa. It applied, equally, in London and Wellington (NZ) and, I think, in Canberra and, maybe, New Delhi, too.

It may be a bad idea but it is a well established one.

-------------------------

I'm with Cobra 6, too: fatties in CADPAT are offensive and I think some reasonable, neat, fairly casual/comfortable "garrison dress" would be much better.

 

[Journeyman]

fatties in CADPAT are offensive

Hello! I'm in the room. I can hear you. 

;D

 

[gcclarke]

I've never understood how tatty, baggy pyjamas on tatty, unkept, overweight staff sends a professional image.  But, it's what the dot COMs and Land Staff seem to want...

I can understand the idea of wishing to keep a operational mindset, and thus wearing an operational uniform. I do question why Naval personnel aren't then ordered to wear their operational uniform, but that's probably an issue for another thread. Most people's issue with regard to the wearing of CADPAT in the NCR doesn't really seem to be with the CADPAT itself, but with members letting themselves go. An out of shape soldier is out of shape, whether they are in DEUs or combats.

As for the comments regarding clothing that would get you into a nightclub but wouldn't be acceptable at work, that is a complete freakin' red herring. Nightclubs are about booze and getting laid. So no, I don't really care whatsoever if your fancy t-shirt would get you into the club, it's still not bloody acceptable in a professional environment. Why anyone would really think the two situations are comparable is beyond me.