Navy to consider gender-neutral ranks

[Jarnhamar]

Why not go for some old school terms that are still used informally and are actually gender neutral then? OD (ordinary deckhand) for OS, AD (able deckhand) for AS, Killick for LS, Master Killick for MS.

You want a rank with Kill or Lick in it? Are you mad? According to the article FSTO posted we'd give the navy a mental break down.

 

[Furniture]

If the RCN decides to go with "sailor" it is at least more appropriate, and  reflective of the job than the idiotic RCAF rank of "aviator".

No Jr NCM flies an aircraft, but almost every trade that wears a RCN uniform can be a sailor.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I like the idea of adding branch to the Ordinary or Leading ect ect...

Ordinary Boatswain -> Master Boatswain

Ordinary Marine Engineer -> Master Marine Engineer

Ordinary Combat Systems Engineer -> Master Combat Systems Engineer

Ordinary Logistician -> Master Logistician

The only one I am stuck on would be the Ops/Combat dept...

All ranks/branches after Master would adopt the existing PO2 -> CPO1 Ranks and names.

 

[dangerboy]

So the survey is out https://forms.office.com/Pages/ResponsePage.aspx?id=lERbMocV1UC7MYtmC38QONQ3gyK7FJBCpjMTXL2PPkZUOUdQTEJJTVRTMkRaN0lZTU9GWE0zRFZYTS4u

Two questions on it: 1. Instead of 'Seaman', what would you prefer? with the options being: (a) Replace “Seaman” with Sailor (Ordinary, Able, Leading and Master Sailor). (B) Sailor Classes (Sailor 3rd Class, 2nd Class, 1st Class, and Master Sailor) (c) Other. and Question 2: What category below best represents you? (a) OS-MS (b) PO2-CPO1 (c) Junior Officer (d) Senior Officer (e) Other

/It has an intro remark that states

In keeping with the CAF movement toward a more inclusive environment in our workplaces, be those at sea or at home, the RCN proposes a new rank designation for our junior ranks that will be more gender-neutral than the current Ordinary Seaman, Able Seaman, Leading Seaman and Master Seaman. These rank designations are rich in history but are not reflective of the modern, progressive Service that the RCN is today.

While this opinion poll is focused on the English versions of the RCN Junior Ranks, all ranks and titles will be reviewed for inclusivity in both official languages. The RCN assesses that the current French junior rank designation “matelot” to be inclusive. We ask for your input to this important decision and thank you for being a part of our renewed commitment to be an inclusive, diverse and gender-neutral organization, all responses are anonymous. Keep your eyes peeled for updates in August.

 

[PuckChaser]

I like the idea of adding branch to the Ordinary or Leading ect ect...

Ordinary Boatswain -> Master Boatswain

Ordinary Marine Engineer -> Master Marine Engineer

Ordinary Combat Systems Engineer -> Master Combat Systems Engineer

Ordinary Logistician -> Master Logistician

The only one I am stuck on would be the Ops/Combat dept...

All ranks/branches after Master would adopt the existing PO2 -> CPO1 Ranks and names.

That's needlessly complex. Would you really call someone who's a MS a Master Logistician or Master Marine Engineer? Words mean things, and putting Master in front of a Trade/Specialty implies that individual is now at the peak of their trade knowledge. I'd never want a MCpl in my trade called a Master Signaller.

 

[dapaterson]

Salty Private
Salty Corporal
Extra Salty Corporal

...of course, that means no more freshwater Great Lakes cruises...

 

[Furniture]

Salty Private
Salty Corporal
Extra Salty Corporal

...of course, that means no more freshwater Great Lakes cruises...

Meh... only the least coasters do those anyway.

 

[torg003]

I think that "sailor" sounds a bit too generic, anyone who takes part in sailing a ship can be called one (whether it be on a warship, commercial ship, or even private boat).  Why wouldn't they have gone for the term used in most English language navies; Rate (or Rating).  So you would then have - Ordinary Rating (OR), Able Rating (AR) and Master Rating (MR).  Seems like a simple solution, but I guess the people in charge didn't want to be like everyone else. :

 

[stellarpanther]

sorry, just noticed the survey was already posted by someone else.

 

[torg003]

You are correct, my bad.

I don't want to derail the thread, but was thinking that if they're going to change the lower non-commissioned ranks, maybe they should make the senior NCO ranks relate better to those of the other services (army, air force).  What I mean by that is that we use the navy rank titles from before unification, with 2 grades of petty officers and 2 grades of CPOs.  As POs were equivalent to SGTs (and S/SGTs) and CPOs were equivalent to WOs, that was fine.  After unification, there is only one SGT rank and 3 WOs, so in theory there should be only one PO and 3 CPOs.
I know that nothing will happen with senior NCO ranks, but considering most NATO and almost all commonwealth navies went to CPO at the NATO OR7 rank, it seems strange that Canada hasn't followed suit (considering it would better conform to the existing post unification rank structure).
Anyway, something to think about.
Now back to talking about Sailor 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Class (or MS, AS, OS).

 

[Walt]

OK. Retired olive green army guy here. What if the CF/RCN chose these for the gender neutral rank titles:

- Shipmate = Ordinary Seaman (i.e. Bloggins (S))
- Able Shipmate = Able Seaman (i.e. Bloggins (AS))
- Leading Shipmate = Leading Seaman (i.e. Bloggins (LS))
- Master Shipmate = Master Seaman (i.e. Bloggins (MS))

Regarding the upper non commissioned officer ranks, the term "petty" is most likely not to be acceptable, perhaps even derogatory. I therefore propose the following:

- Senior Shipmate (2)= PO (2) (i.e. Bloggins (SS2))
- Senior Shipmate (1) = PO (1) (i.e. Bloggins (SS1))
- Senior Chief Shipmate (2) = CPO (2) (i.e. Bloggins (SCS2))
- Senior Chief Shipmate (1) = CPO (1) (i.e Bloggins (SCS1 or GOD!))

Food (or fodder) for thought! Cheers & take care,

(One final sentiment. I forgot "READY AYE READY")

Walt

 

[medicineman]

OK. Retired olive green army guy here. What if the CF/RCN chose these for the gender neutral rank titles:

- Shipmate = Ordinary Seaman (i.e. Bloggins (S))
- Able Shipmate = Able Seaman (i.e. Bloggins (AS))
- Leading Shipmate = Leading Seaman (i.e. Bloggins (LS))
- Master Shipmate = Master Seaman (i.e. Bloggins (MS))

Regarding the upper non commissioned officer ranks, the term "petty" is most likely not to be acceptable, perhaps even derogatory. I therefore propose the following:

- SeniorSenile Shipmate (2)= PO (2) (i.e. Bloggins (SS2))
- Senior Senile Shipmate (1) = PO (1) (i.e. Bloggins (SS1))
- Senior Chief Very Senile Shipmate (2) = CPO (2) (i.e. Bloggins (SCS2))
- Senior Chief Very Senile Shipmate (1) = CPO (1) (i.e Bloggins (SCS1 or GOD!))

Food (or fodder) for thought! Cheers & take care,

Fixed that for you.

MM

 

[SupersonicMax]

OK. Retired olive green army guy here. What if the CF/RCN chose these for the gender neutral rank titles:

- Shipmate = Ordinary Seaman (i.e. Bloggins (S))
- Able Shipmate = Able Seaman (i.e. Bloggins (AS))
- Leading Shipmate = Leading Seaman (i.e. Bloggins (LS))
- Master Shipmate = Master Seaman (i.e. Bloggins (MS))

Regarding the upper non commissioned officer ranks, the term "petty" is most likely not to be acceptable, perhaps even derogatory. I therefore propose the following:

- Senior Shipmate (2)= PO (2) (i.e. Bloggins (SS2))
- Senior Shipmate (1) = PO (1) (i.e. Bloggins (SS1))
- Senior Chief Shipmate (2) = CPO (2) (i.e. Bloggins (SCS2))
- Senior Chief Shipmate (1) = CPO (1) (i.e Bloggins (SCS1 or GOD!))

Food (or fodder) for thought! Cheers & take care,

(One final sentiment. I forgot "READY AYE READY")

Walt

Is it Boatmate for subs??

 

[medicineman]

Is it Boatmate for subs??

More likely Bunkmate, since there's some hot bunking IIRC...

MM

 

[Walt]

Quote from: Walt on Today at 01:18:16
OK. Retired olive green army guy here. What if the CF/RCN chose these for the gender neutral rank titles:

- Shipmate = Ordinary Seaman (i.e. Bloggins (S))
- Able Shipmate = Able Seaman (i.e. Bloggins (AS))
- Leading Shipmate = Leading Seaman (i.e. Bloggins (LS))
- Master Shipmate = Master Seaman (i.e. Bloggins (MS))

Regarding the upper non commissioned officer ranks, the term "petty" is most likely not to be acceptable, perhaps even derogatory. I therefore propose the following:

- SeniorSenile Shipmate (2)= PO (2) (i.e. Bloggins (SS2))
- Senior Senile Shipmate (1) = PO (1) (i.e. Bloggins (SS1))
- Senior Chief Very Senile Shipmate (2) = CPO (2) (i.e. Bloggins (SCS2))
- Senior Chief Very Senile Shipmate (1) = CPO (1) (i.e Bloggins (SCS1 or GOD!))

Food (or fodder) for thought! Cheers & take care,

Fixed that for you.

MM

To MM:

:rofl:

Not fair MM. I read your response in the midst of a generous mouth full of my beer. There will be some "cleaning up" required before my Wife wakes up in the morning. Fortunately, my keyboard survived the horror.

To SSMax:

Oh Jeeeeze Sir. Please don't start another fiasco. Let's just say/pretend that if it weighs/displaces more than 15 tons, it's painted grey/black, intentionally built/engineered to operate in fresh/salt water, is crewed by personnel of various classifications who wear a Christmas trees worth of badges & insignia on their official clothing/uniform.............it is technically a ship.

 

[medicineman]

Quote from: Walt on Today at 01:18:16
OK. Retired olive green army guy here. What if the CF/RCN chose these for the gender neutral rank titles:

- Shipmate = Ordinary Seaman (i.e. Bloggins (S))
- Able Shipmate = Able Seaman (i.e. Bloggins (AS))
- Leading Shipmate = Leading Seaman (i.e. Bloggins (LS))
- Master Shipmate = Master Seaman (i.e. Bloggins (MS))

Regarding the upper non commissioned officer ranks, the term "petty" is most likely not to be acceptable, perhaps even derogatory. I therefore propose the following:

- SeniorSenile Shipmate (2)= PO (2) (i.e. Bloggins (SS2))
- Senior Senile Shipmate (1) = PO (1) (i.e. Bloggins (SS1))
- Senior Chief Very Senile Shipmate (2) = CPO (2) (i.e. Bloggins (SCS2))
- Senior Chief Very Senile Shipmate (1) = CPO (1) (i.e Bloggins (SCS1 or GOD!))

Food (or fodder) for thought! Cheers & take care,

Fixed that for you.

MM

To MM:

:rofl:

Not fair MM. I read your response in the midst of a generous mouth full of my beer. There will be some "cleaning up" required before my Wife wakes up in the morning. Fortunately, my keyboard survived the horror.

Truth be told, I had a belly full of beer when I wrote it :cheers:

MM

 

[PuckChaser]

Can't have mate in the name. That's sexualized language that could be a micro agression to some.

 

[ModlrMike]

All joking aside, I don't see what the big deal is. We already use the word Matelot in the french rank titles, which translates to Sailor in english. Let's just make the change and get on with things.

 

[OldSolduer]

I like the idea of adding branch to the Ordinary or Leading ect ect...

Ordinary Boatswain -> Master Boatswain

Ordinary Marine Engineer -> Master Marine Engineer

Ordinary Combat Systems Engineer -> Master Combat Systems Engineer

Ordinary Logistician -> Master Logistician

The only one I am stuck on would be the Ops/Combat dept...

All ranks/branches after Master would adopt the existing PO2 -> CPO1 Ranks and names.

But you’re offending people by calling them “ordinary” !

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

All joking aside, I don't see what the big deal is. We already use the word Matelot in the french rank titles, which translates to Sailor in english. Let's just make the change and get on with things.

Unfortunately,it does not change the problem.

Dixit the Colins Robert French English - English French dictionary:

"matelot: (a) (gén: marin) sailor, seaman ~ de premiere/deuxieme/troisieme classe leading/able/ordinary seaman."

So we are back to square one.

BTW, if we adopt the first/second/third class designation to follow the French pattern, should the Subbies then become ensigns first and second class?