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NATO apologizes after U.S. soldier opens fire on Afghan civilians

Jed said:
I didn't expect that I would ever be quoting you Kalatzi, but you just never know.... The early 1970's was a bad time if one wanted to be appreciated for wearing your country's uniform and expecting to be appreciated for it.


Thanks - It's never been easy. Nor should it.

I recall my first military history class - The Reading of "Tommay Atkins"- Rudyard Kipling

First verse reproduced here with the usual caveat


I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play

Kipling of course is seen is one of the  great advocates for The British empire .

He cautioned however against Hubris "Requiem" a very dark entry was written at the height of the Victorian Era.

I wasn't aware until recently that he lost his son in WWI,  leading to "For Jack"

And the grim line If they ask us why we died? Tell them because our fathers lied"

A free mini-history lesson".

BTW several lines in Tommy Atkins didn't check out and I preserved them anyway, Thanks
 
Brihard said:
Do I *like* it that we have to govern ourselves this way? Hell no. But if everything we do has an effect, and if everything we do might be scrutinized, then part of being in our profession is realizing that it's an inevitability that if we don't self-police we're going to have trouble at some point down the road. If we go out of our way to be obnoxious in ways that could put the undecided both at home or abroad against us, what the hell are we doing?

There's the things we'll say and do in the JR's mess - in our own sort of professionally privileged forum - and then there's the face we'll show to the public and to those who live in the places we might have to operate. Taking off our uniforms and going home at the end of the day doesn't strip us of the significance of the things we do or say if people still know who we are.

I could name a couple of instances from the 90s that really drive home the absolute necessity to self police.  More then one thing contributed to the decade of darkness, not the least of which being the extreme amounts of social credit (read trust) we burned, destroyed and actually said "who the f*** cares!" about. 

We are best suited to police ourselves.  If someone else decides to do it for us, we will not even have messes to mess around in.

Well said Brihard.
 
recceguy said:
'Infidel' is what they call us. You remove the stigma and association by accepting and embracing it.

I, personally, find nothing disgraceful, cool or funny about accepting that and turning it back on them.

Nor is it racist or otherwise to think so.

I am an infidel, by definition... BUT! Celebrating this publicly does us no favours at all.

Social credit is kind of like a credit card. Quick and easy to spend. By a book, some groceries, heck, that candy bar is cheap... A couple of weeks later, "HOLY HANNA! HOW DID I SPEND ALL THAT!".

We spend more social credit on the little stuff, by far, then the big stuff. Like it or not, there are those out there looking to exploit all the little things that we do, and they are very good at it. We need to get ourselves in check, because in this day and age EVERYTHING is potentially a YouTube video.  We have to be more aware of everything we do today, because we are being watched much more closely then ever before in history... So far, we are passing the test I like to think, but it is only through vigilance and self policing that we will continue to pass the test.

Believe it or not, something as little as wearing an "Infidel" t-shirt here at home, can be a catalyst thousands of kms away (remember, sometimes it takes many, but do we really need the one more that starts more riots?). Think of what happens in the deep south when someone burns an American flag... Too me, it is just a piece of cloth, but to others...
 
Teeps74 said:
We need to get ourselves in check, because in this day and age EVERYTHING is potentially a YouTube video.  We have to be more aware of everything we do today, because we are being watched much more closely then ever before in history... So far, we are passing the test I like to think, but it is only through vigilance and self policing that we will continue to pass the test.

Too true. Ask any of my troops from G8/G20 and the 'YouTube Test' was something I hammered home repeatedly in our preparatory training. And it's something I continue to bring up whenever I talk to the guys on things verging on this.

We've got an enemy not at all reticent to twist words and facts to their own purpose. Pictures make it even easier when a desirable image can be presented with a fictitious context. There's only ever one chance to make a first impression.
 
Brihard said:
Feel better now that you've got that out? Can the conversation move on now back to what's relevant and actually being discussed?

Given that I'm the only person who's vocally been on the particular side you're obviously aiming this at, maybe not read more into what I've said than what I actually wrote? As a university educated white male myself - a huge proponent of free speech and utterly unapologetic for being so - I still differentiate between 'can' and 'ought'. Not on grounds of political correctness, but just because some things are inherently crass, and more importantly because in the context of our profession unthinking crassness can come across as something entirely different when viewed by outsiders- be they our own civilian population, be they the civilian population of a state we're operating in, or be they the potentially belligerent but undecided population of an AO.

Regarding one of the posts earlier, no, it's not 'adopting a label', 'taking it back' or what have you. We're not a bunch of black urban rap culture kids who've 'reclaimed' ethnic slurs. We're not talking about those of us in the reserves who've jokingly adopted the moniker 'toon' as a mark of contempt for those who actually mean it. The danger in the way some are looking at it here is that we're looking at labels that we'll unthinkingly make fun of, but that from the enemy's point of view serve not to simply degrade us as we'd think of a slur here, but as an actual, no-shit motivator to bring undecided locals on side against us. 'Infidel' or 'crusader' or what have you aren't just something used against us as an insult. They're labels which, if they stick, if they're accepted by the population, serve to make more of them accepting of working to actively kill us. That's sort of a big deal. The moral significance of the terms to us is practically nil. To the civilian population in a
place like Afghanistan it can mean a hell of a lot more. In the wake of the Koran burning controversy I'm astounded that people would still be so lightly and unthinkingly dismissive of the cultural ignorance on display here.

We can't pretend we're in conflicts where these things don't matter. If we were in a straight up war where we can win simply by killing the enemy, great. But if we're in complex counterinsurgency operations where what we do today, tomorrow, and this year in this country will have an effect on how we're perceived ten years down the road in the next country, is the smug 'fuck you' we throw out at an enemy we hold rightly in contempt worth the long term potential impact? For that matter, can we look our own population in the eye and say we're faithfully serving their interests if we refuse to give a damn about the cultural intricacies or nuance that can make our job much easier, or much harder- in a job where 'harder' is measured in caskets?

I'm not saying a t shirt, a patch or a hat is going to individually make much of a difference. But it's the stupid small crap that collectively adds up and leads to bigger mistakes- and that invariably gets pointed at in retrospect, spun out of context and out of proportion, and used to demonize us when some jackass makes a dramatic mistake down the road and the foaming edges of our political spectrum decide it's 'take shots at the CF' week.

If thinking critically about how we present ourselves as professionals and how it contributes to bigger issues is 'hand wringing', so be it. I'd rather by the time it comes to trigger pulling we've seized whatever advantages we can, and denied as many as possible to the enemy. And that includes avoiding things that would negatively colour the perception amongst very fickle and very suspicious and traditionally rooted indigenous populations that we might need to bring on side. No need to help accurize the enemy's own propaganda.

That's simply your opinion. It can be as easily discounted as you do ours. You can't claim the moral high ground on it. Your saying it doesn't make it right. It just doesn't work that way. Don't like it, don't wear one, but don't patronize those that do by pretending they're ignorant of the facts or berate them for not fitting your PC view of things.
 
(As he gently tries to coax the thread back to the original topic.....)

Brihard said:
We've got an enemy not at all reticent to twist words and facts to their own purpose.
Indeed we do.....
.... The American invaders are claiming that a single mentally-ill soldier was the perpetrator of this unambiguous crime and consider it as an individual transgression and unintentional action in order to protect themselves from legal action. But according to witnesses and the scale of the crime scene, it becomes clear that this was not act of a deranged individual but rather the actions of a group which was intentional and pre-planned. All the cautionary military steps were also taken including the use of air-power. Therefore all the international right groups and judicial organs should treat them as war criminals and they should be handed over to the heirs of the martyrs for Qisas Bil-misl (death for killing/life for life) in accordance with criminal law.

The occupying Americans claim that there were only 16 people killed in this massacre but according to witnesses and the number of observed funerals, that number is far exceeded, the heirs of whom demand justice for their dead from the murderers ....
 
recceguy said:
That's simply your opinion. It can be as easily discounted as you do ours.

I have not discounted opposing opinions- I considered them, gave them due weight - knowing, after all, who I'm speaking to here - and still on the balance of arguments disagree. I'm not ignoring what's being said.

You can't claim the moral high ground on it. Your saying it doesn't make it right. It just doesn't work that way.

Which is why I explicitly said I claim no moral high ground, and why I've said that this is my opinion. Thanks, I'm right there with you on this one.

Don't like it, don't wear one, but don't patronize those that do by pretending they're ignorant of the facts or berate them for not fitting your PC view of things.

I don't give a rat's ass about being politically correct. I care about the effect of what we do and how we're perceived inasmuch as it affects our ability to do our job and how we're seen by the Canadian public as representing their interests. I'm not pretending any of you are ignorant of facts; I accept that we've made different judgements based on either value or reasoning.  Trying to flippantly pass me off as someone who's merely dismissive of everyone else's views, as someone who's standing on a soapbox, or as someone who's wedded to PC nonsense is simply inaccurate. What I've yet to see from many people - none of those who disagree with me - is actually looking at the meat of what I'm saying; why these things don't matter in your mind the way I believe they do. All I see is several people acting as if I'm coming at them personally when I'm not. When I disagree with your opinion, or with a conclusion coming from your own thinking on a subject, that's not a personal attack. We just disagree.

Anyway, I've said what I've felt the need to say- if anyone else feels the need or desire to take the 'last word' on this I doubt it'll touch on anything I haven't already gone into. Out of respect for the original thread I'll desist from here.
 
milnews.ca said:
(As he gently tries to coax the thread back to the original topic.....)
Indeed we do.....

The Taliban is really good at twisting context to suit their purposes... More importantly, they know their Target Audience (TA). The Afghan is ready to side with whomever is causing them the least damage at this point in time.  Least damage physically, socially and spiritually. These past couple of months have been clearly in favour of the TB. Peeing on corpses, burning Korans, now shooting rampage. The TB are maximizing the effects of all of these, creating a true sh** storm for those that have to deal with this on a psychological plane.

There is a lot more that needs to be said on this topic, however this means is not appropriate.
 
Teeps74 said:
The Taliban is really good at twisting context to suit their purposes... More importantly, they know their Target Audience (TA). The Afghan is ready to side with whomever is causing them the least damage at this point in time.  Least damage physically, socially and spiritually. These past couple of months have been clearly in favour of the TB. Peeing on corpses, burning Korans, now shooting rampage. The TB are maximizing the effects of all of these, creating a true sh** storm for those that have to deal with this on a psychological plane.

There is a lot more that needs to be said on this topic, however this means is not appropriate.

I don't know a schmick about the science (withcraft?) of effective messaging, but it's clear as hell that they've got home field advantage. We're essentially one side in a competitive discourse where the enemy knows the language and the cultural setting, and they know the right triggers. We might waste time trying to hammer home points that simply don't mater, and ignoring small cues that to the locals might be huge.

We're lucky in the west that almost anyone can whip out the iPhone and within minutes do a bit of due diligence in trying to figure out the truth in a message. We take it for granted that there's a smorgasbord of media to consume. The insurgents have a lion's market share in information in some places though, and if we piss off the local authorities who we might hope to use to disseminate our message, the insurgents get a de facto monopoly. Unfortunately they DO have a lot of success in presenting stuff like this nutbar as representative of us, and undermining the credibility of our whole side. And because we hold ourselves to the inviolable handicap of restricting ourselves to honesty, they aren't even constrained by the same rule set as ours.

I've always found the Taliban propaganda watch interesting- and they're getting damned good at it. They've got some skilled English speakers translating this stuff; clearly our own population (through the media) is part of the target audience.
 
Brihard said:
I don't know a schmick about the science (withcraft?) of effective messaging, but it's clear as hell that they've got home field advantage. We're essentially one side in a competitive discourse where the enemy knows the language and the cultural setting, and they know the right triggers. We might waste time trying to hammer home points that simply don't mater, and ignoring small cues that to the locals might be huge.

We're lucky in the west that almost anyone can whip out the iPhone and within minutes do a bit of due diligence in trying to figure out the truth in a message. We take it for granted that there's a smorgasbord of media to consume. The insurgents have a lion's market share in information in some places though, and if we piss off the local authorities who we might hope to use to disseminate our message, the insurgents get a de facto monopoly. Unfortunately they DO have a lot of success in presenting stuff like this nutbar as representative of us, and undermining the credibility of our whole side. And because we hold ourselves to the inviolable handicap of restricting ourselves to honesty, they aren't even constrained by the same rule set as ours.

I've always found the Taliban propaganda watch interesting- and they're getting damned good at it. They've got some skilled English speakers translating this stuff; clearly our own population (through the media) is part of the target audience.

Witchcraft? I have not sacrificed too many goats this week, so not witchcraft...

The first part of the problem is understanding the value of credibility and then accepting that what is credible to me might not be credible to you... Now amplify that across cultures.

Next is truth. We in the western world like to bandy about with this totally subjective term called truth. Truth is flavoured by our upbringing, education, religion, mores and ethics. To me, the Maple Leafs are the best team in the NHL, to someone else, they are total junk. Both are true statements.

The TB understand the need to fill a void. They move fast with their messaging and do not have a clear "approval process". They do have a plan for their messaging, and usually stay on topic. They follow Goebels' train of thought for propaganda "...tell a big lie and keep repeating it...". It really does work, else the entire marketing industry in NA would not exist today.

Our best defence against the TB propaganda machine is our credibility. Our natural propensity to want to deal with facts. Our credibility is also found in our actions (more so then words). Actions in Afghanistan tribal regions are not lightly forgotten (especially bad actions).

Dealing with the psychological plane is important. We need to spend more time exploring the bigger (and littler) ramifications of our decisions on on a cause and effect plane...
 
Teeps74 said:
Witchcraft? I have not sacrificed too many goats this week, so not witchcraft...

The first part of the problem is understanding the value of credibility and then accepting that what is credible to me might not be credible to you... Now amplify that across cultures.

Next is truth. We in the western world like to bandy about with this totally subjective term called truth. Truth is flavoured by our upbringing, education, religion, mores and ethics. To me, the Maple Leafs are the best team in the NHL, to someone else, they are total junk. Both are true statements.

The TB understand the need to fill a void. They move fast with their messaging and do not have a clear "approval process". They do have a plan for their messaging, and usually stay on topic. They follow Goebels' train of thought for propaganda "...tell a big lie and keep repeating it...". It really does work, else the entire marketing industry in NA would not exist today.

Our best defence against the TB propaganda machine is our credibility. Our natural propensity to want to deal with facts. Our credibility is also found in our actions (more so then words). Actions in Afghanistan tribal regions are not lightly forgotten (especially bad actions).

Dealing with the psychological plane is important. We need to spend more time exploring the bigger (and littler) ramifications of our decisions on on a cause and effect plane...

So would it be more strategically advantageous to delegate some messaging approval authority lower for faster dissemination in the face of current events, hoping that getting on it faster would outweigh the potential risk of leaning too far forward on something? I could see some tricky calls to be made there. Is there a prospect for us to counter the advantage of speed that they have in messaging?
 
Brihard said:
So would it be more strategically advantageous to delegate some messaging approval authority lower for faster dissemination in the face of current events, hoping that getting on it faster would outweigh the potential risk of leaning too far forward on something? I could see some tricky calls to be made there. Is there a prospect for us to counter the advantage of speed that they have in messaging?

Suffice to say, IMHO we have the mechanisms in place. The rest of the conversation is not for here.  Flick me an email on DWAN, I can get more in depth there, or better still, talk to your C2, and get on a course.
 
Teeps74 said:
Suffice to say, IMHO we have the mechanisms in place. The rest of the conversation is not for here.  Flick me an email on DWAN, I can get more in depth there, or better still, talk to your C2, and get on a course.

Understood.

If my life circumstances should appear to be such that I can commit to the time you guys are looking for and I wouldn't be a wasted loading, I'll likely be doing exactly that.
 
Brihard said:
So would it be more strategically advantageous to delegate some messaging approval authority lower for faster dissemination in the face of current events, hoping that getting on it faster would outweigh the potential risk of leaning too far forward on something? I could see some tricky calls to be made there. Is there a prospect for us to counter the advantage of speed that they have in messaging?
There's open source evidence that some pretty big organizations are getting counter-messaging out quickly without what appears to be cumbersome approval processes ....

http://twitter.com/#!/isafmedia *
https://twitter.com/#!/ISAFmedia/status/178827561231593474
https://twitter.com/#!/ISAFmedia/status/176714753652178944
https://twitter.com/#!/ISAFmedia/status/175458071567548416

.... so it's not impossible, and is being done by Western democracies.  How much messaging control those far higher up the (political) food chain are willing to give up is a different question, though.

* - Even if countering some Twitters =/= countering the Taliban itself, it still counts as countering the Taliban's message.  Like on the movie "Patton", where the aide said that defeating Rommel's plan was like defeating Rommel.
 
Maybe not exactly polite, but germane none the less:

6296479.bin

Reproduced under the Fair Dealing provision of the Copyright Act from the Ottawa Citizen
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/opinion/editorial-cartoons/index.html
 
Another good piece from Carl Prine
Repoduced under the fair use provision of the copyright act

Mind Over Matter

By Carl Prine Wednesday, March 21st, 2012 9:04 am
Posted in On History, On War
Read more: http://www.lineofdeparture.com/2012/03/21/mind-over-matter/#ixzz1pld7HxD0

Combat veterans have been phoning me throughout our days, wanting to talk about Bob Bales, the staff sergeant who apparently murdered in their sleep 16 Afghan villagers in Pangwai — mostly women and children – and then built a pyre of babies and their mothers and lit it.

Some have sought to explain away the slaughter.  The 38-year-old father was reeling from debt, maybe marital strife.  He’d suffered from brain injury, probably depression and post-traumatic stress disorder.  He’d been drinking, maybe washing down pills to take the edge off the pain – mental or physical, probably both.




Perhaps he was one of the Madigan hundreds, men who desperately sought help for their anguish and were turned away, sent back to war as little better than malingerers because the Army cares most about numbers, and numbers should move down range.

Mind over matter, you know?  They don’t mind.  And you don’t matter.

Bales snapped, they whisper. It could happen to you, to me, anyone who has seen all that blood. It could and you know it, Carl.  You know this.

This they say to me because I listen and don’t judge.  Even when I know that they don’t really mean all of it because they also have had their brains bludgeoned by IEDs and they, too, have killed and watched their buddies die in parts and smears, and none of them —  not one — shot babies, much less made them into burnt offerings to gods of war.

But you try telling that to men who see their wife in his.  Or those who have come to believe that the children of Bales are like theirs, and this is probably so because all children are more like one another than they are us.

These men might’ve deserved some commendations, too, and never got them because they go to those of higher rank — even when they don’t really earn them.  Same as a promotion Bales thought he might get but didn’t, because rank often is pinned on the man who went to war less and is still whole, not the broken soldier trying to recover.

Bales, they say, is like many other leaders told to buck up and go on another deployment because we need men who lead.

Mission accomplishment then troop welfare, all soldiers know this, even when they’re teetering on an edge.

My enlisted friends especially understand what it’s like to sit through hot nights on a cot in a fetid building on the cusp of a village that smells like piss, no one saying anything. Not after a day of staring into the sullen faces of Afghans, not after the triple stack lit the truck with a fire that burnt longer than Bales’ stack of babies.

That loneliness and anger become corporeal.  A man can feel the weight of the plates as they dig into his back.  He can see his left fist.  It’s curled over the years into the oval of an M4 hand guard, much as a racecar driver’s hands will crease lap-by-lap into the shape of a wheel.

Perhaps when he’s falling asleep he can feel his right finger slowly squeeze a trigger of air, just as the thumb mindlessly flicks to auto.  Again and again.  Silently in time with our dreams.  Killing the night.

You don’t even know why you’re doing it or even if you’re shooting.  You leave that to your finger, your thumb, your hand and call it “muscle memory” because it makes it easier to forget what it really is.

Well, all dreams, I might say to you, really are dreams about yourselves.  The faces you see are really you, some aspect of you anyway, just as the fears that are projected in nightmares are yours, too, those that otherwise would haunt your days if you didn’t stash them in evening shade.

It’s probably best that your hands are killing the night in your dreams. Better than yourself when awake.  Or a village when drunk, I could say, even if you might not believe it.

You see, Bales is your nightmare awakened and marched through your day.  He’s the out of place mirror to you, the man you fear you might become if your wife left, the docs numbed you with handfuls of pills and shamed you out of a profile.  The monster after someone pours you a few drinks.

A loaded gun, staring out of a fetid room, toward a village that probably will kill you soon enough.

It doesn’t help that you sense your wife feels for his wife and wonders to herself whether you might ever snap, too.  That the TV cameras would be on her front porch, staring past the curtains at a mess she wished she had picked up before America arrived.

These are natural fears, I say to you.  Unavoidable, really.  You’re coming to terms with a man you think you know but who has done things no man ever should.  He disgusts you and yet you still ask of me absolution from sins you never committed.  You do so because the trespasses against the village in Pangwai might as well have been done in your name by someone very much like you.

So say my friends who were enlisted.

*****

My friends the officers have been sadder still, and that surprised me.

They often call Bales a “kid,” even when he’s older than they are.  They ask me what signs they should look for in their kids.  “When is a man getting close to losing it?” they ask.

And I flatter myself by imaging the question isn’t rhetorical.

They feel that the Army, Fort Lewis, the infantry and all his leaders have failed this man, a soldier everyone can now concede never should’ve been redeployed to war, a man they wish had given some warning signs, some indication of indiscipline or pain so profound that he needed to be jailed for his own safety.

And that of babies who did this world no harm.

Or, worse, the officers mull over the more terrifying worry that he showed many signs and everyone missed them, or they didn’t care after they saw them, which also is plausible and that realization only makes it worse.

The grief of my officer friends is often inconsolable, even though they never knew Bales.  It’s as if they’re looped in endless loops of regret, but I’ve come to believe that’s just because they’re officers.

The officer’s burden of command is like the plates that dig into a staff sergeant’s back, only they tug at his soul.  Officers see Bales as one of their own men, and they sense that they’ve failed him, just as they constantly worry that they’ve failed their troops.

The good officers, anyway.  Not the others.

The good officers fear that there are other men like Bales in the Army, so many after more than a decade of constant war, but they know that the mission won’t give them time to find them because troop welfare always comes second.

So I say to these men and the enlisted who give their jobs meaning what I have been saying to many people, even those who never have served.

You shall find no small number of victims as the pain radiates out of Pangwai: The wife and children of SSG Robert Bales,  those who survived  in the villages, the Special Forces soldiers who surely didn’t deserve to  find the offal left in his wake and an Army that must bear the brunt of scandal for this tragedy while much of the rest of our democracy treats it as entertainment.

For those who are compassionate, you shall first remember those who got the worst in the exchange of these pains, the dead of Pangwai:  Mohamed Dawood, Khudaydad, Nazar Mohamed, Payendo, Robeena, Shatarina, Zahra, Nazia, Masooma, Farida, Palwasha, Nabia, Esmatullah, Faizullah, Essa Mohamed and Akhtar Mohamed.

And if some of us say their names aloud, and it sounds like a prayer in a language ancient and unknown, it probably is, which is why we say it.

No man can own all of this pain, so quit trying to bear it away.  No one of you is like Bales, even if you see him chased through your soul’s house of mirrors.  But you know men who could be like him.  Get them help.

Officers, be  good leaders to your men.  Serve them.  Search out those who might become like this man and care for them, too, because ultimately this war isn’t worth another Bales, and you must rebuild an Army in the ashes of his pyre in Pangwai.

Yes, I agree, Bales isn’t a victim.  But I also would say to you that he’s near enough to victims we know.

This your heart realizes even if your head doesn’t, much like a finger that tugs on an invisible trigger as you sleep, the thumb flicking steadily onto auto.


Read more: http://www.lineofdeparture.com/2012/03/21/mind-over-matter/#ixzz1plcULGV8
 
I absolutely LOVE wearing my infidel T-shirt to the gym and other public places.

If someone gives me a weird look I'll look them in the eye nod my head and say "yuup"

I'll throw any combo of infidel patch, IR canadian flag and jolly roger patch on my gym bag.
 
Teeps74 said:
The Taliban is really good at twisting context to suit their purposes... More importantly, they know their Target Audience (TA). The Afghan is ready to side with whomever is causing them the least damage at this point in time.  Least damage physically, socially and spiritually. These past couple of months have been clearly in favour of the TB. Peeing on corpses, burning Korans, now shooting rampage. The TB are maximizing the effects of all of these, creating a true sh** storm for those that have to deal with this on a psychological plane.

There is a lot more that needs to be said on this topic, however this means is not appropriate.

Last few months? Have they ever wanted us there in the south? Magic 8 ball says never.

(Edit to add: that comes off as arrogant toward you teeps in retrospect. I assure you it wasnt meant to sound as such! :) I just don't think they ever wanted us there in the south honestly.)
 
As well, what wisdom lies behind winning a heart of greed and a mind that goes berserk on the equivalent of not saying god bless you when one sneezes?

Less interested in winning hearts and minds, more interested in physically assuring my daughter isn't ripped apart by a suicide bomber on the way to grade 1.
 
dogger1936 said:
Last few months? Have they ever wanted us there in the south? Magic 8 ball says never.

(Edit to add: that comes off as arrogant toward you teeps in retrospect. I assure you it wasnt meant to sound as such! :) I just don't think they ever wanted us there in the south honestly.)

After conversations with the limited number of Pathans in KC (I was a planner, folks saw fit to hide me in a dark room), I do believe that at one point in time, Kandaharis did want us there as opposed to the TB. Remember that the TB, during their reign, were not exactly merciful nor understanding.

Unfortunately, I wonder if we are not perceived as worse now (I do mean we as in the coalition sense).

It's all academic now... C'est la vie.
 
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