Nationalize the Petroleum Industry? Only in Canada....

[Infanteer]

Just because I feel like picking on all the socialist dreamers.  Just imagine, our oil and petroleum industry can be as screwed up as our health care.  We can have:
-  Unionized gas station attendents making $24/hour.
-  Constant fuel shortages due to strikes and government mismanagement.
-  Another portfolio and ministry
-  Long-line ups at the pump because there is only 2 gas stations in the whole city.

Sound plasible - it does to about half of us crazy Canucks.... ^-^

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http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/09/05/leger_gas_poll20050905.html

Poll: almost half of Canadians want oil industry nationalized
Last Updated Mon, 05 Sep 2005 18:52:52 EDT
CBC News
The Canadian Press said Monday a Leger poll suggested 49 per cent of respondents want petroleum resources nationalized while 43 per cent said they would like to see the same fate for gas companies.

 
Quebec City Aug. 31, 2005. (CP PHOTO/ Clement Allard) 
The Leger Marketing telephone survey of 1,500 people was conducted between Aug. 24 and Aug. 31, much of it before the major effects of Hurricane Katrina were felt.

Canadian gasoline prices jumped about 25 cents a litre since the storm hit the U.S. Gulf Coast a week ago Monday.

Quebecers were the strongest supporters of resource nationalization at 67 per cent, followed by residents of the Atlantic provinces at 53 per cent, Ontarians at 45 per cent and British Columbians at 42 per cent.

Forty per cent of respondents on the Prairies and 36 per cent of Albertans were in favour.

Among those opposed to resource nationalization, Albertans led the way at 49 per cent followed by British Columbians at 39 per cent.

Quebec led in support for nationalization of oil companies, with 61 per cent in favour, followed by the Atlantic provinces at 46 per cent.

Alberta was the most opposed to oil company nationalization at 59 per cent, followed by the prairies at 49 per cent, B.C. at 46 per cent and Ontario at 41 per cent.

Most of the respondents -- 79 per cent -- suggested they would like to see taxes on gasoline cut. Federal and provincial governments have made it clear that is unlikely to happen.

Seventy-six per cent of respondents indicated they wanted the government to intervene after gas prices increased before Katrina hit the coast.

Fifty-four per cent suggested they would like the government to fix the pump price.

Twenty-six per cent of respondents blamed the gas companies for pre-Katrina price jumps and 18 per cent blamed oil-producing countries.

Interestingly, 63 per cent of respondents said pre-Katrina gas price hikes had not affected their fuel consumption, while 25 per cent said they were using less gas.

Results of the poll are considered accurate within plus or minus 2.6 percentage points 19 times out of 20.

On Labour Day, gas prices in Montreal and Halifax averaged $1.38 a litre and the regulated price in St. John's, N.L., was $1.48.

In Toronto, prices ranged from $1.22 to about $1.35 a litre.

Western drivers paid between $1.08 and $1.13 in Edmonton, and between $1.07 and $1.14 in Calgary.

 

[Mojo Magnum]

There is an ethanol factory going in in Barrie.  They are hoping to start production in late '06.  Hopefully  : an influx of ethanol into the market will alleviate the price points.

but then.....haven't seen any pigs fly over lately, and I hear the forcast in Hell isn't calling for any snow.

 

[a_majoor]

Considering it take about five units of energy input (perhaps more when accounting for the petrochamicals used in farming such as pesticides and fertilizer) to get four units of ethanol energy, I don't see this as a way to lower fuel prices anytime soon. It is another attempt to buy votes by a certain Mr McGuinty, however....

 

[Lance Wiebe]

Are that many Canadians that stupid?  Do they really think that any government agency can (or rather, would) be more efficieant than a profit-based civilian company?

Stupid may be to mild a word........

 

[George Wallace]

Lance

I can't believe you just asked that question.

Look at Petro Canada.......didn't Trudeau buy it up and then we saw them sell it off again.  

What about our other forays into Nationalization......Air Canada, Canadian National Railways, might as well include Bombardier too!   All sold off.

 

[George Wallace]

How much faith do Canadians retain in the Egg Marketing Board, the Wheat Board, the Dairy and Hog Marketing Boards, etc?  Fine to nationalize if it does well, but Canadians are fickle and loose faith in them rather quickly.  Then we have Quebec who wants a cut, even if there is nothing involving them, such as the pipeline to ship NG from Nova Scotia to the States......a detour through Quebec, so they can get royalties too.....yeah...right!  Thank God someone had balls and brains to say NO.

 

[Wingman]

Here we go ... NEP Part Deux

>> There is an ethanol factory going in in Barrie.

And by the same logic, the government should put a shipbuilding yard in Saskatoon.  Maybe a lumber mill in downtown Toronto.  Centralize and nationalize the maple syrup industry with the HQ in Iqaluit.  Why wouldn't they build an ethanol plant where the majority of the grain is?  I guess whatever buys votes.

I think Saskatchewan is planning to build four ethnaol plants, which would make sense.  I don't know how the province got around the Canadian Wheat Board (CWB) restrictions on western provinces using grain for processing.  I think it is either 40K or 60K bushels max of wheat (durum also?) and barley that can be used by a entity (farmer or corp) for milling or final product.  After this amount the 'entity' must sell their grain to the CWB and buy it back at "market rates" and pay all shipping charges to and from point of destination.  Only in Canada you say.....pity. 

 

[George Wallace]

Living in Ottawa, I am thinking of setting up a Wind generator....there is an unlimited supply here... ;D

 

[jmacleod]

Liberal government of the period bought PetroFina, a Belgian controlled company which was an
enormous error in judgement in the opinion of many, in and outside the petroleum industry.
Petro Canada was created, and became a repository for political patronage appointees, who of
course knew nothing about the industry. Of course, PetroCan was sold off. Mr. Kenneth Colin
Irving must of had a good laugh during the exercise, because it is generally thought that Irving
(Exxon) had their greatest growth in retail gas and oil marketing during the PetroCan experiment.
Don't think any Canadian government will foray into oil and gas again. MacLeod

 

[larry Strong]

Why am I getting that sick , nauseated feeling in my guts again.

Got sucker punched in the '80's by the NEP, when I was starting to raise a family, took about 10 years to recover, going from a big cheque to trying to find jobs that would pay semi decent......and now that I can see the end of the tunnel to retirement, they might try again! Bastards better not try.

 

[Britney Spears]

Well, if this "Cuba North" plan comes anywhere close to fruition, the Western seperatist movement may actually gain legitimacy, but I imagine the entire American XVIII Airborne Corps will already be in Ottawa for a little friendly persuasion first.

 

[Monsoon]

Of course, PetroCan was sold off. Mr. Kenneth Colin
Irving must of had a good laugh during the exercise, because it is generally thought that Irving
(Exxon) had their greatest growth in retail gas and oil marketing during the PetroCan experiment.
Don't think any Canadian government will foray into oil and gas again. MacLeod

What are you talking about?  Irving Oil has been growing steadily since the end of the Second World War - their success has had nothing to do with PetroCan.  Also, what do you imagine Irving has to do with Exxon?

 

[Wingman]

I would like to see another poll done.   Do you want the energy sector nationalized?   I wonder how many Quebec people would like their hydro power played with? Maybe we could nationalize our auto industry?    

The Americans were funding and developing the oilfields of Canada (Alberta and Sask) decades before Ottawa under Trudeau recognized that there was potential in the oilfields.   So again while Ottawa slept, an industry was developed and now they want to control it.   Worked well in the airline industry :-X.      

 

[a_majoor]

WRT Barrie, the major crop in this part of Ontario is feed corn, which is also suitable for conversion to ethanol, among other things. Since corn is particularly energy and input intensive to grow, Ontarians will be feeling a big price and supply pinch when this stuff comes on line.

Barrie is at the edge of the 905 belt, so for voting purposes, it is the ideal site for a provincial Liberal boondoggle (you thought Ottawa was the only place for this sort of game?)

 

[Genetk44]

Guys....I don't consider myself wise enough to be able to form an opinion on this issue except to say 2 things...(1).strictly from a flying passengers point I'd have to say Air Canada,as a crown corporation, was a far better operation than it is now and (2) nowadays  I get real nervous about government getting involved in anything.
Gene

 

[jmacleod]

I live in Moncton NB, home along with Saint John of the Irving Empire, know them well. KC Irvings
first partnership was with Exxon (Standard Oil Company of California) who provided Iriving Oli with
needed capital, that is an historic fact. Irving did not experience regular steady growth until much
later, as the competition, for a variety of reasons opted out of the traditional Irving market, the
Atlantic region. Irving had the last laugh on the Feds over their oil and gas experiment because
they bought most of their oil and gas from Irving refineries, particularly Saint John NB. Irving in fact
acquired many Petro Can (PetroFina) stations along the way. Now, you will find Irving stations as
far south as Massachusetts and going futher south, but the company is concerned at this moment with the rising cost of crude oil. Irving own refineries, tankers and retail outlets all focused on filling some
car owner's tank. There was a book published about five years ago on Kenneth Colin Irving - lot
of information about Mr. Irving and his business philosophy, a very shrewd fellow. MacLeod

 

[Monsoon]

I live in Moncton NB, home along with Saint John of the Irving Empire, know them well. KC Irvings first partnership was with Exxon (Standard Oil Company of California) who provided Iriving Oli with needed capital, that is an historic fact. Irving did not experience regular steady growth until much later, as the competition, for a variety of reasons opted out of the traditional Irving market, the Atlantic region. Irving had the last laugh on the Feds over their oil and gas experiment because they bought most of their oil and gas from Irving refineries, particularly Saint John NB. Irving in fact acquired many Petro Can (PetroFina) stations along the way. Now, you will find Irving stations as far south as Massachusetts and going futher south, but the company is concerned at this moment with the rising cost of crude oil. Irving own refineries, tankers and retail outlets all focused on filling some car owner's tank. There was a book published about five years ago on Kenneth Colin Irving - lot of information about Mr. Irving and his business philosophy, a very shrewd fellow. MacLeod

Well if that's what you're saying, I not no beef with you.  But to suggest that Irving and Exxon are somehow "intertwined" because the Irving gas stations used to buy from Standard Oil before they got into the refining biz is a bit silly.  And Irving sells gas to most stations (PetroCan and otherwise) in the region - they and Imperial Oil (in Halifax) are the only local refiners.

 

[jmacleod]

For details about the late Kenneth Colin Irving, and his co-venture partners, go on the net to the
site "Irving" - it's all there. You will find that Irving Oil Limited has had and continues to have
working partnerships - the LNGPlant under construction as I write this is a partnership between
Irving and Chevron, Alberta. There is nothing what ever silly about the oil and gas business - the
big refineries are price and supply driven - at one time, in Halifax County and perhaps in all of
Nova Scotia, all the gasoline for all the retail gas stations, (Esso, Irving, Texaco, Co-Op, Shell
etc. etc.) was purchased from a single supplier, the big Esso refinery in Imperoyal, Dartmouth
HRM, Nova Scotia. Why, because Esso bought a lot of crude at a very good price,and could sell
at an acceptable profit, which also passed on good margins for all the dealers. When you drive
around a city, and see all the brand name service stations, think about where they get the gas
they sell, from time to time. MacLeod

 

[Brad Sallows]

Oh please oh please oh please please please...

Just wait until I've got my popcorn and soda ready, though.

 

[jmacleod]

No government in North America will ever consider "nationalizing" the petroleum industry - the fact
is that the public thinks that the gas and oil merchants are screwing them - no government would
want to be in the position of the oil companies, and their ever negative public relations. It appaers
that the oil and gas industry has known for some time that prices would escalate. If you deal in
construction, and check the Bid Depositories, you would find that bids solicted to build service
stations have not been on the table for years - drive around and count the number of stations
closed, and the growth of self service at the pumps - these are all factors in profit/loss margins
- there are others. Is the public really getting screwed? probably, but exactly what can the
public do about it. Good question. MacLeod