Motion M-103 coming up (split fm Politics in 2017)

[The Bread Guy]

... I'd be curious if the member who put the motion forward would be as willing to denounce the constant stream of antisemitism that spews out of all those Mississauga mosques?

Given everything else the motion says, that's a good question right there.

Not sure but we've seen how far private member's bills can get so I wouldn't worry too much yet.

If the government of the day wants them passed, they'll get passed -- if they don't, they don't.

I know which way I'd bet on this one & this gov't  ;D

 

[Colin Parkinson]

So we can slap charges on the first mosque that recites the prayer calling for the destruction of the Jews

 

[The Bread Guy]

So we can slap charges on the first mosque that recites the prayer calling for the destruction of the Jews

And, as others have said, there's laws in play now that would allow that.

 

[Jarnhamar]

First off, in re-reading my previous post, I have to suck back and apologize for sounding a bit harsh in asking "did you read it?" - it's a passionate debate on all sides.

I appreciate that thank you. I in turn apologize if my response was acerbic or more personal than it ought to have been. I'm hardly unbiased or neutral when it comes to Islam and my OP about M103 was quite sarcastic.

I know about reading between the lines in government writing.  I see "Islamophobia" there in the text - and that seems to be what some critics are getting hung up on. 

Where does it say this motion will not allow you to dislike Islam?  Or Judaism?  Or Catholicism?  Or Jehovah's Witnesses?  I see "hate crimes" mentioned as being something to be looked at, but I don't see reference to thought crimes.  And we all know there's criticism, and there's "criticism", right?

That's exactly it (Islamophobia being repeated in the text). It all comes down to the word Islamophobia and how the word is both ambiguous and perverted from it's root meaning.

What's Arachnophobia?  An extreme or irrational fear of spiders.  One would presume Islamophobia would be an extreme or irrational fear of Islam but we know it's used much more generally than that. Basically any criticism of Islam is turned around into Islamophobia. Essentially the same way Nazi is used ad nauseum.

You asked where does the motion say it will not allow me to dislike Islam?  I think it's rather straight forward. Wikipedia's definition of Islamophobia is;
"fear, prejudice, hatred or dislike directed against Islam or Muslims, or towards Islamic politics or culture."

So it's not a phobia in terms of irrational fear but according to the definitions we see of "Islamophobia" it ALSO includes "hatred or dislike" of Islam.

Motion M-103 calls for the government to condemn Islamophobia which as I've pointed out includes dislike of Islam. The motion calls for the government to condemn me for thinking Islam is violent and abusive towards women.  I don't think it's a stretch of the imagination to connect the dots and see how easily the government could begin to actively prosecute people like me for my Islamophobia. 

 

[The Bread Guy]

... It all comes down to the word Islamophobia and how the word is both ambiguous and perverted from it's root meaning.

(...)

You asked where does the motion say it will not allow me to dislike Islam?  I think it's rather straight forward. Wikipedia's definition of Islamophobia is;
"fear, prejudice, hatred or dislike directed against Islam or Muslims, or towards Islamic politics or culture."

So it's not a phobia in terms of irrational fear but according to the definitions we see of "Islamophobia" it ALSO includes "hatred or dislike" of Islam ...

Seen.  I hear you about definitions, and that WILL be a critical element of anything that may come out of this.  Some see the fear of Islam as a religion as a whole as irrational (hence, a phobia) because of the small percentage of people claiming to be Muslims doing some very bad stuff.  That said, Wikipedia's is only one definition - it would be good to keep an eye on any definitions coming out the process, as well as seeing how much protection is offered to other religions.

... Motion M-103 calls for the government to condemn Islamophobia which as I've pointed out includes dislike of Islam. The motion calls for the government to condemn me for thinking Islam is violent and abusive towards women.  I don't think it's a stretch of the imagination to connect the dots and see how easily the government could begin to actively prosecute people like me for my Islamophobia.

It's kinda hard for government to ding someone for what they think.  How they express such thoughts is another question - and it would be worthwhile to keep track of how that would be handled, too.

I also have to agree, though, with others who say there's already hate speech/crime laws in place.  Is the issue that these provisions aren't working?  Any LEO input on that appreciated.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Just a quick add regarding your comment about Wikipedia was only one definition.  I checked a couple others before hand too.

Merriam-Webster
irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against Islam or people who practice Islam

Oxford Dictionary.
Dislike of or prejudice against Islam or Muslims, especially as a political force.

Cambridge
unreasonable dislike or fear of, and prejudice against, Muslims or Islam:

Dictionary.com
hatred or fear of Muslims or of their politics or culture

Macmillian
hatred or fear of Muslims and Islam

There is a definite theme; if you dislike Islam you're an Islamophobe.

Agreed it's hard to ding someone for what they think but less hard to take someones criticism and twist it into hate speech.
Agree again about already existing hate speech laws but in reading the motion it's pointed out that it's felt Muslims are especially vulnerable to hate speech and hate crimes (despite Jewish people largely being the most represented victims of hate crimes in Canada).

 

[MarkOttawa]

Real M103 ;D:

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/US/M103_Heavy_Tank.php

Mark
Ottawa

 

[The Bread Guy]

Agreed it's hard to ding someone for what they think but less hard to take someones criticism and twist it into hate speech.

Worth keeping an eye out for, for sure.  Meanwhile, though, it only takes a few idiots to make outrageous statements (and you can find them all over social media from all sides) and claim freedom of speech before that excuse wears out, so one also has to be careful about how one "criticizes," too.

Agree again about already existing hate speech laws but in reading the motion it's pointed out that it's felt Muslims are especially vulnerable to hate speech and hate crimes (despite Jewish people largely being the most represented victims of hate crimes in Canada).

I don't read it that way, but we can agreed to disagree.  I agree with you about anti-Semitism, though.  We'll have to see how "Muslim" heavy the next steps are, as opposed to just looking for more ways to prevent any religion from being jerked around unreasonably or hatefully.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Real M103 ;D:

Mark
Ottawa

You know, when I first read the title, I was hoping that it might be about some new equipment coming down the pipe that is needed, instead of hot air to appease some.

 

[Loachman]

The immediate threat that this motion would bolster is that of the Human Rights Tribunals/Kangaroo Courts, which have been used to supress some very slight criticisms of Islam - Mark Steyn and Ezra Levant managed to fight back and achieve some legislative satisfaction. Those tribunals need to be eliminated.

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=milnews.ca] I don't read it that way, but we can agreed to disagree.  I agree with you about anti-Semitism, though. 
[/quote]
Happily no need to disagree with me here, that wasn't my view on things.  I was quoting the article and the MP who put forward the motion.  She feels Muslims are especially at risk.

I almost think anyone wearing something  with Trump written on it is presently the most at risk for hate crimes

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I thought the Trump things constituted hat crime.  ;D

 

[brihard]

The immediate threat that this motion would bolster is that of the Human Rights Tribunals/Kangaroo Courts, which have been used to supress some very slight criticisms of Islam - Mark Steyn and Ezra Levant managed to fight back and achieve some legislative satisfaction. Those tribunals need to be eliminated.

Ah yes, that one time where Levant accidentally WASN'T full of ****.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Happily no need to disagree with me here, that wasn't my view on things.  I was quoting the article and the MP who put forward the motion.  She feels Muslims are especially at risk.

Remember what I said about how one says things?  This is how people get to say that Islamophobia is a problem ...

...  During the debate, Khalid read some of the messages she has received over her motion. In places where the author used unparliamentary language, Khalid inserted the word "blank."

Warning: some language will be offensive to some readers.

-- No need to debate her. Simply remind her that she is a merely woman and she needs to sit the blank down and shut the blank up. She has to comply according to Sharia.
-- Kill her and be down with it. I agree, she is here to kill us. She is sick and she needs to be deported.
-- Real Canadians will rise up and get rid of the nasty blank Muzzie stench in Ottawa. They should all go the blank back to your blank hole where you belong. We will burn down your mosques draper head Muslim.
-- Why did Canadians let her in? Ship her back.
-- Why don't you get out of my country? You're a disgusting piece of trash and you are definitely not wanted here by the majority of actual Canadians.
-- Blank off Pakistani, Yalibani. You blank yourself and go back to your blank hole of a country where you blank come from ugly.
-- If I want to call a Muslim piece of blank terorrist, I will. Go back to your blank hole country where you came from blank hole.
-- So the little n-word blank is whining about go home you Muslim? You're not home. Blanking stupid sand.
-- You're a cultural Marxist. Inclusivity blank trying to ruin Canada. Blank you gently with a chainsaw, you camel-humping terrorist incubator blank.
-- Shoot this blank.

Agree or disagree with Islam, I'm thinking a lot of people wouldn't think these are the best critiques of the religion or the individual in question.  The many will continue to suffer because of the worst idiots ... 

Just like threats on social media may not be the best way to air dissent, no matter whether the winning team jersey is red or blue.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Cherry picking.  I wonder how many very respectful emails disagreeing with her stand did she receive?  How many times was anti Jew or anti infidel rhetoric used in the last sermon she attended at her mosque?  Again, that use of the "I" word needs to be scourged from her document.

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=milnews.ca]
Agree or disagree with Islam, I'm thinking a lot of people wouldn't think these are the best critiques of the religion or the individual in question.  The many will continue to suffer because of the worst idiots ... 

Just like threats on social media may not be the best way to air dissent, no matter whether the winning team jersey is
[/quote]

I understand where you're coming from here but lets be honest, that kind of trash talk is prevalent across most social media on any number of topics.
I've had the same if not worse stuff said to me when I've tried to debate points or issues. I've mentioned before too that "vets" are among the most abusive I've found, as if talking about graphic violence somehow makes them bad ass.  In any case am I (are we) surprised by those comments? Don't think so.  Muslims can hardly claim to be the sole victim of online hatred like that. Hell if you want to see REALLY gruesome comments check out the comments when a female hunter posts a picture of an animal she shot and killed.


Also while I'm sure it's probably not the case, there's a number of growing examples of Muslims/Blacks/Jews/ traditional victims of hate crimes who are getting caught faking hate crimes against themselves. Or caught committing hate crimes against their own race/people. More so in the US but I believe there's been some cases here in Canada.
It's easy to picture some of those comments coming from Muslims themselves in order to vilify "Islamophobia".

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Maybe we should just start hitting people with sticks and stones.

Many will start to remember that words cannot hurt you.........................unless you let them.

It's supposed to take a lot to rile up a Canadian, but politicians have done it in spades.

Extreme vitriol against politicians? Tough shit, they brought it on themselves. Many Canadians are at the boiling point because of them.

And who's to say where those comments come from? I can imagine a muslim male calling her a whore and to sit the fuck down and shut up. Or it could be all set up to elicit sympathy. There's ton's of reasons anyone would have, in their mind, to say something like that. Again, tough shit. If I had their pay and pension you could call me whatever you want. I don't care now, but the cash would be nice [

But when you all read it, in your minds eye, all you saw was illiterate, angry, white dudes. Don't deny it. [ And in my mind, that was the reason for her to say anything. 

Could be wrong. Who really knows? Just my thoughts.

 

[The Bread Guy]

... words cannot hurt you.........................unless you let them ...

If that's truly the case, then this shouldn't be a problem, right?

... How many times was anti Jew or anti infidel rhetoric used in the last sermon she attended at her mosque? ...

Just words, right? 

... I wonder how many very respectful emails disagreeing with her stand did she receive? ...

I'm glad we agree that we shouldn't judge any group (in this case, opponents of M-103) by the worst idiots in that group.

... But when you all read it, in your minds eye, all you saw was illiterate, angry, white dudes. Don't deny it. [ ...

I just saw "Idiots, Generic, C1A1, For the use of" myself.

I understand where you're coming from here but lets be honest, that kind of trash talk is prevalent across most social media on any number of topics.

True, and I've even seen people around these parts being banned for language not even that inflammatory.  That doesn't make it right or helpful.

... It's easy to picture some of those comments coming from Muslims themselves in order to vilify "Islamophobia".

Still doesn't make them right or helpful.

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=milnews.ca]Still doesn't make them right or helpful.
[/quote]
On the contrary if you're pushing an Islamophobes everywhere! agenda then going on and making those kinds of comments will support your own argument and be very helpful. (not what you meant I know   )

 

[Kat Stevens]

If that's truly the case, then this shouldn't be a problem, right?Just words, right?  I'm glad we agree that we shouldn't judge any group (in this case, opponents of M-103) by the worst idiots in that group.I just saw "Idiots, Generic, C1A1, For the use of" myself.True, and I've even seen people around these parts being banned for language not even that inflammatory.  That doesn't make it right or helpful.Still doesn't make them right or helpful.

Absolutely. Anti semitism doesn't hurt me in the least, being non Semitic , but if we're going for a bad words shouldn't be allowed motion because feelings, then you better make sure the field is level. By putting the "I" word in there, twice, you give it the high ground.