Military Police roles/org: now vs. C Prov Corps days (split thread)

[Bird_Gunner45]

But you still have not clarified your contention that a civilian police department would be better suited to establish and train a police department that is required to act as both it's nations military police and it's civilian police within a country still actively at war.  It certainly seems to make sense to have a MP play a big part in helping to establish and train the ANP and then one day, once they and the country have reached an appropriate level of stability, have other agencies carry on and further conduct that training. 

If I apply your logic to the Afghan National Army it seems you are saying it would have been better to have some civilian contractor train the ANA and assist them to stand up then it would be to have trained and professional soldiers do that capability building.  Having CivPol do the same for ANP is just as misguided.

I clarified my statement in that unless we deploy into a failed state, such as Afghanistan, where organized local police forces dont already exist, than there is no real need to train a police force as a pseudo-militia as is what occurred with the ANP. If war broke out in the Ukraine, this capability wouldn't be required as Ukraine has the capability to conduct its own policing at a civilian level. In this scenario, it would make as much or more sense to deploy civilian police to assist Ukrainian police as it would to divert MP assets needed forward. The same is true of the requirement to build an army- the ANA needed building from the bottom up as there was no real standing army in A-stan. In Ukraine there is a military, so a small role in assisting/advising may exist to assist the Ukrainian army in force generation, but it wouldn't be the same level as what the ANA required. Further, the US used private contractors to assist in training the ANA and I'm not against that either at a basic level.

So, the point is, as we DONT know what role MPs, or arty, infantry, armour, etc will play in future war or conflict its more beneficial on the whole to focus all trades on doctrinal roles instead of attempting to cement niche roles from the last war.

 

[dapaterson]

Step one: Stand up the Special Force.
Step two: Appoint RCMP Constable Bloggins to the Special Force.


OK, We now have an RCMP officer able to police under the terms laid out in the NDA while deployed overseas.

Next problem?

 

[Good2Golf]

Your attestation that a charge under Sect. 130 of the NDA would likely be the vehicle through which CAF member would be charged for an offense committed under the Criminal Code of Canada that was not otherwise covered by the NDA in now way means that the CCC does not apply to CAF members OUTCAN.

This issue was that you said the CCC does not apply OUTCAN. That is not true. Your point as to how charges might be laid does not correct your earlier incorrect statement.  As I stated earlier, the CCC absolutely applies to CAF members, whether in Canada or outside its borders. 

Regards
G2G

 

[mariomike]

So the military can pay that Cpl 65k/yr or they can pay the rate of a Constable at close to 100k/yr BEFORE OT.

And that does not include Paid Duty.

P.D. does not come out of the city treasury, so is not shown on the Sunshine List as OT. But, in Toronto alone, P.D. came to over $26 million last year.

 

[Tibbson]

Your attestation that a charge under Sect. 130 of the NDA would likely be the vehicle through which CAF member would be charged for an offense committed under the Criminal Code of Canada that was not otherwise covered by the NDA in now way means that the CCC does not apply to CAF members OUTCAN.

This issue was that you said the CCC does not apply OUTCAN. That is not true. Your point as to how charges might be laid does not correct your earlier incorrect statement.  As I stated earlier, the CCC absolutely applies to CAF members, whether in Canada or outside its borders. 

Regards
G2G

I'd agree with you if you can find me any service member who has been charged outside of Canada that actually has a CC charge on his/her record.  The CC itself does not apply.  The NDA does apply and it is an NDA offence, namely Sec 130, that a service member is charged under and convicted under (if convicted that is) when outcan.

I'll give you another example and this applies within Canada too.  Under the Criminal Code a warrant can be issued for obtaining DNA as long as the offence being investigated is designated in Sec 487.04 of the Criminal Code.  Using the offence of Sexual Assault, for the longest time when MPs wanted to obtain a warrant for DNA for a crime that was going to be tried under the NDA they would get the appropriate Criminal Code warrant because the service member was going to be charge Under Sec 130 NDA pursuant to Sec 271 CCC.  This was done because Sec 271 CCC is one of the designated offences under 487.04 CC. 

Eventually this was challenged and the Courts held that a civilian DNA warrant could not be used because the actual charge being laid was under Sec 130 of the NDA and NOT under Sec 271 of the Criminal Code.  Sure, the CC exists but it is not in effect on it's own.  It must be used through the NDA and it is the NDA that applies. 

To rectify this situation re warrants though there were provisions added to the NDA a few years ago where a Military Judge could grant a DNA warrant under the NDA.  This just further substantiates my contention that service members overseas do not fall under the CC.  All charges are through the NDA. 

 

[Good2Golf]

So NDA 130(1)(b) is improperly written then?

 

[Tibbson]

So NDA 130(1)(b) is improperly written then?

No, it certainly is not written improperly.  It means exactly what it states but you are not reading it in the correct context.

Yes, the CC exists however one is not charged under the Criminal Code when overseas and even when NDA Sec 130 is used in Canada an individual is not charged under the CC.  If a 130 charge is laid it would be laid within the military justice system pursuant to the Criminal Code (or any other Act of Parliament) but not under the Criminal Code.  The charge will always be Sec 130 and the punishment given will always be under the NDA because the CC has no force and effect.  That rests with the NDA and as the NDA is written CivPol have no authority to act under it.

Overseas CivPol have not legal mechanism to use the Criminal Code and they have no jurisdiction under the NDA therefore they have no policing authorities while deployed with the CAF. 

 

[SeaKingTacco]

GPS

Really? Against any half switched on opponent, I can pretty much garauntee your GPS will be having issues. In short, you had better know how to read a map and use a compass.

We won't always get the free ride that we got from the Taliban in that regard.

 

[Good2Golf]

No, it certainly is not written improperly.  It means exactly what it states but you are not reading it in the correct context.

Yes, the CC exists however one is not charged under the Criminal Code when overseas and even when NDA Sec 130 is used in Canada an individual is not charged under the CC.  If a 130 charge is laid it would be laid within the military justice system pursuant to the Criminal Code (or any other Act of Parliament) but not under the Criminal Code.  The charge will always be Sec 130 and the punishment given will always be under the NDA because the CC has no force and effect.  That rests with the NDA and as the NDA is written CivPol have no authority to act under it.

Overseas CivPol have not legal mechanism to use the Criminal Code and they have no jurisdiction under the NDA therefore they have no policing authorities while deployed with the CAF.

So we're agreed then.  An act (or omission) [by a CAF member or someone subject to the Code of Service Discipline] that takes place outside of Canada, and would, if had taken place in Canada, be punishable under [Part VII of the NDA,] the Criminal Code [or any other Act of Parliament] is an offence under the NDA, i.e. CAF members would be held accountable under the NDA for acts committed outside of Canada that would be a punishable offence under the Criminal Code.

We are also agreed that the CAF member would be charged under Section 130 of the NDA, for such an act punishable under the Criminal Code.

Regards
G2G 

 

[Alberta Bound]

I wanted to say that I don't feel that the RCMP or other police services could ever replace MPs in 95% of the roles that MPs are tasked to do. For roles that are purely military in nature (detainee handling, convoy control, force protection) we don't get the training and wouldn't get the practice regularly enough to even match what could be provided to Reserve MPs so why would you want us to?

For MP duties that mirror operational civilian policing (Criminal, Federal or Traffic investigation to name a few) we can never match you on the cost basis. What does a 5B MP Cpl make? $70,000 a year? RCMP Cst 1st class is $82,000 (without OT).  Never mind an MWO vs a S/Sgt. $90,000 vs $107,000 (OT is Different in mission where CIVPOL doesn't get OT as you are attached to the CF. Only civilians in mission NOT to get OT. You should have seen some of the pay stubs for CIDA, DFAIT and CSC as well as the extra travel allowances. But I digress). The CF would never want to consider those cost differences and keeping those duties allows a much larger pool of MPs to draw on for non Base-Investigative taskings. More opportunities and areas of experience for MPs.

So why replace one for the other? Now don't get me wrong. Most RCMP members who have spent time in front line policing at 10 years have significantly more well rounded experience in general investigations that the average municipal police officer or MP.  They have no choice. You have little to no access to specialty sections so you handle almost all investigations from the first call to concluding the file after all the post court tasks and everything in between. You become good generalists. Often in busy postings where you handle several hundred files as lead each year. Do I think there are areas where we could enhance (not replace) MPs. Absolutely.  ** gotta take a work. 

 

[Alberta Bound]

**Sorry work call.

I was fortunate to deploy as an RCMP member March to December 2009 in Kandahar. I spent the first three months working out of the PRT at CNS attached to Stabilization Company A (R22R). Generally this entailed long walks in the moon light around KC. I also pulled my turn on QRF usually one 24 period every 5-7 days. Also to get the full experience I used to fill my spare time taking long drives around KC with the US patrols stationed at the PRT. A number of us filled in wherever an extra body was needed. Outside the wire and not as another tactical tourist just filling a seat. Luckily most of the NCM CIVPOL when I got there were ex CF and wanted to carry our share. We had ex RCD, MP, R22R, CAR and some ex militia amongst us.

As a bonus I was then asked by the CF to go to Dah-e-Bah with Stab Coy B. More long walks in the moonlight, route clearance drives and usually sentry every 3rd day or so in the tower by the front gate (most times all by my lonesome during the night). On the upside I was the only Civie and didn't have to listen to the DFAIT people complain about everything. For my last 2 months I was attached to a US MP unit to see the West Country and the beautiful arghandab valley.

So what's my point to this?  I was lucky. For an RCMP member to get on a tour is hard. Except for some of our Ottawa types who get cushy spots on missions most members try for 10 to 15 years to get on one mission. I waited 15 years and have been thankful ever since. The busier the spot your posted in, the less likely to be released. Did we have some poor quality people in AFG. Sure. Can we do good work in missions. Yes. Better than MPs. In the right mission or tasking. Better. In Bosnia and Kosovo mentoring police on investigations. Absolutely. We get daily operational experience in that work every shift here in Canada. Often in communities that are hostile to us, with tribal cultures and many not speaking French or English. Living in poor conditions, poverty, corruption, isolated and with support often a long flight away. Sound familiar? In a much more intensive environment than any base MP. Look up Hobbema AB, Pukatawagan MB, Davis Inlet Nfld or Assumption AB. For some examples. Was AFG the correct mission for us. No. Trying to imbed us in barely literate, mostly untrained, ANP units to mentor them on policing?! Give me a break. MPs weren't helping them much as far as civilian policing. The ANP was a para military security force for the most part. Just trying not to get blown up and keep their higher ups from stealing their pay.

I worked with some terrific US and CF members. I have huge respect for many. From Van Doos to reserve MPs (who mostly ended up as drivers? and gunners? on the T Lavs that I often spent my time as an air sentry on) to the couple reg MPs ( 1 great WO from Quebec) I dealt with often. I was also disappointed in some. Some NIS guys who had what seemed like a tiny amount of serious investigative experience compared to most of my Csts and some MPOs who's depth of experience apparently came from books and courses without ever arresting anyone or having any real part in an investigation. Some of their "thoughts" on mentoring the ANP were to say the least laughable and ideas that we had thrown away years before were routinely presented to TFK as the absolute solution. 

L.S. If you don't think the CIVPOL can do it. BS. We already did. FYI legal authority for policing can be granted by the appropriate govt if they want to. If Parliament wanted they could reinvest the RCMP with powers to act as MPs whenever the govt wants. The RCMP had a reserve tasking to the C Pro C up until the 50s. Our PMPD gets authority to act as peace officers in the US whenever the PM goes there. Same as we grant to the US Secret Service when they come north. Also, back in 94-95 the RCMP had policing powers granted by the Haitian govt for our members deployed there at the time. Full policing powers.

I will reiterate my previous invite to you. If you ever wish to expand your policing experiences and are going to be in Alberta just drop me a line.

Mike (my B in L)( a TF 1-09 type). If you are reading this. I also liked the occasional medic. Not many. But a couple. Lol.

And to the rest. You have my undying gratitude for your service. 

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Look up Hobbema AB, Pukatawagan MB, Davis Inlet Nfld or Assumption AB.

Small world.  I have a guy from Puk working for me lol.  Thanks for the insightful post.

 

[Scott]

Smaller world, I fought fires up by Lynn Lake with a crew from Puk. I also worked in Assumption for brief periods. I second your thoughts abut these places and put forward that there are many more.

 

[Alberta Bound]

Thanks.

Agreed. Many beautiful spots (northern lights on a cold winters night). But some wild policing.

 

[Alberta Bound]

Sorry I was remiss earlier. For the record there was also one great Navy NSE guy who made some hot miserable days bearable and even funny. I didn't need the GCS to feel like part of the team with guys like him around.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Sorry I was remiss earlier. For the record there was also one great Navy NSE guy who made some hot miserable days bearable and even funny. I didn't need the GCS to feel like part of the team with guys like him around.

Was that Smith?

 

[Furniture]

**Sorry work call.

I was fortunate to deploy as an RCMP member March to December 2009 in Kandahar. I spent the first three months working out of the PRT at CNS attached to Stabilization Company A (R22R). Generally this entailed long walks in the moon light around KC. I also pulled my turn on QRF usually one 24 period every 5-7 days. Also to get the full experience I used to fill my spare time taking long drives around KC with the US patrols stationed at the PRT. A number of us filled in wherever an extra body was needed. Outside the wire and not as another tactical tourist just filling a seat. Luckily most of the NCM CIVPOL when I got there were ex CF and wanted to carry our share. We had ex RCD, MP, R22R, CAR and some ex militia amongst us.

As a bonus I was then asked by the CF to go to Dah-e-Bah with Stab Coy B. More long walks in the moonlight, route clearance drives and usually sentry every 3rd day or so in the tower by the front gate (most times all by my lonesome during the night). On the upside I was the only Civie and didn't have to listen to the DFAIT people complain about everything. For my last 2 months I was attached to a US MP unit to see the West Country and the beautiful arghandab valley.

So what's my point to this?  I was lucky. For an RCMP member to get on a tour is hard. Except for some of our Ottawa types who get cushy spots on missions most members try for 10 to 15 years to get on one mission. I waited 15 years and have been thankful ever since. The busier the spot your posted in, the less likely to be released. Did we have some poor quality people in AFG. Sure. Can we do good work in missions. Yes. Better than MPs. In the right mission or tasking. Better. In Bosnia and Kosovo mentoring police on investigations. Absolutely. We get daily operational experience in that work every shift here in Canada. Often in communities that are hostile to us, with tribal cultures and many not speaking French or English. Living in poor conditions, poverty, corruption, isolated and with support often a long flight away. Sound familiar? In a much more intensive environment than any base MP. Look up Hobbema AB, Pukatawagan MB, Davis Inlet Nfld or Assumption AB. For some examples. Was AFG the correct mission for us. No. Trying to imbed us in barely literate, mostly untrained, ANP units to mentor them on policing?! Give me a break. MPs weren't helping them much as far as civilian policing. The ANP was a para military security force for the most part. Just trying not to get blown up and keep their higher ups from stealing their pay.

I worked with some terrific US and CF members. I have huge respect for many. From Van Doos to reserve MPs (who mostly ended up as drivers? and gunners? on the T Lavs that I often spent my time as an air sentry on) to the couple reg MPs ( 1 great WO from Quebec) I dealt with often. I was also disappointed in some. Some NIS guys who had what seemed like a tiny amount of serious investigative experience compared to most of my Csts and some MPOs who's depth of experience apparently came from books and courses without ever arresting anyone or having any real part in an investigation. Some of their "thoughts" on mentoring the ANP were to say the least laughable and ideas that we had thrown away years before were routinely presented to TFK as the absolute solution. 

L.S. If you don't think the CIVPOL can do it. BS. We already did. FYI legal authority for policing can be granted by the appropriate govt if they want to. If Parliament wanted they could reinvest the RCMP with powers to act as MPs whenever the govt wants. The RCMP had a reserve tasking to the C Pro C up until the 50s. Our PMPD gets authority to act as peace officers in the US whenever the PM goes there. Same as we grant to the US Secret Service when they come north. Also, back in 94-95 the RCMP had policing powers granted by the Haitian govt for our members deployed there at the time. Full policing powers.

I will reiterate my previous invite to you. If you ever wish to expand your policing experiences and are going to be in Alberta just drop me a line.

Mike (my B in L)( a TF 1-09 type). If you are reading this. I also liked the occasional medic. Not many. But a couple. Lol.

And to the rest. You have my undying gratitude for your service.

There is an interesting point in here that I think needs to be the key point when discussing the merits of a small m capital P (mP) service in the CF. Investigation experience, and frequency... Do we as the CAF need to spend the time and money to train MPs to the level of civilian police forces when they in the normal execution of their duties will deal with disciplinary investigations for minor drug use and traffic violations? Would our training time and budget not be better spent on having MPs who are trained mostly in security, POW handling, Convoy Ops, etc.. and have a few RCMP members seconded to the CAF to fill the role of the NIS, and to conduct investigations of a serious nature? It seems to me that having a few experts from the RCMP and a general body of well trained capital M small p (Mp) MPs might be the better choice for quality investigations, as well as preparing the CAF for any possible theatre of war. It might mean a few less MPs get to switch over to local police after their mandatory service, but it on the surface looks like a wiser path...

 

[The_Falcon]

There is an interesting point in here that I think needs to be the key point when discussing the merits of a small m capital P (mP) service in the CF. Investigation experience, and frequency... Do we as the CAF need to spend the time and money to train MPs to the level of civilian police forces when they in the normal execution of their duties will deal with disciplinary investigations for minor drug use and traffic violations? Would our training time and budget not be better spent on having MPs who are trained mostly in security, POW handling, Convoy Ops, etc.. and have a few RCMP members seconded to the CAF to fill the role of the NIS, and to conduct investigations of a serious nature? It seems to me that having a few experts from the RCMP and a general body of well trained capital M small p (Mp) MPs might be the better choice for quality investigations, as well as preparing the CAF for any possible theatre of war. It might mean a few less MPs get to switch over to local police after their mandatory service, but it on the surface looks like a wiser path...

Three branches of the US military, USAF, USMC and USN either use blended investigative agencies (AF-OSI, USMC CID) or mostly civilian (USN-NCIS).  If the NDA doesn't currently allow it, well laws aren't set in stone, amend the NDA.

 

[Alberta Bound]

Was that Smith?

No Dand District Centre.

All the NSE That I remember at CNS at the time were 5 Brigade types.

Only Navy guy I really remember there was a computer guy. Again, another great guy although a Canucks fan.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

LOL, Smith is his name (the guy I was thinking of)