Militarization of the police?

[Humphrey Bogart]

:Tin-Foil-Hat: I tell ya, it's Obama's fault. He's turning Homeland Security into a para military organization. So he can use them when he becomes dictator. Blame it all on Obama. :Tin-Foil-Hat:

 

[cupper]

Wait,...the vehicle is illegal to import but she did anyways??  ....and enforcing that law is somehow wrong to you??

No. There is a question about whether the vehicle is legit or not. If the vehicle is 25 years or older, does not need to meet emission or safety standards. But there is a question as to the legitimacy of the VIN number according to court documents. Some importers change VIN numbers to make vehicles appear to fall in the 25 year loophole.

But when you send enough Homeland Security agents to have people classify it as a raid, maybe you need to rethink the optics. They don't go into detail as to exact numbers of DHS agents or if there was a Tac team there, so I'm not judging one way or the other.

But this is the type of mission creep that has people asking if there is a problem.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

If New Glasgow Police requires an ERT or the use of an armoured vehicle, they can call in the RCMP.  No need for a small town force to have that capability but of course they wouldn't want the RCMP to come in and step on their trunks as that might hurt someones ego.

Now you guys are mind fuckin' readers.......I'm done with this thread.

This may surprise you but in the trade I work we step into each others 'territory' all the time if it means solving a crisis sooner/faster.    Are you telling me you would send back equipment that might keep your soldiers safer because internet trolls might poo-poo it??

 

[RCDtpr]

I honestly can't believe the nonsense I've read in this thread...from members of the CF no less.

Whine whine whine the police have mean looking things...this may come as a shock to you guys, but a lot of people in this country aren't very nice.  Shocking I know.

It's like I said before..better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.  Does anyone remember the Hollywood bank shootout in the 90's?  LAPD wasn't equipped with long guns and it wasn't until people died due their to inability to respond to the threat, that rifles became the norm in cruisers.  Why wait until worst case scenario to THEN get prepared?  The CF did that quite a bit in Afghanistan and how many lives were lost?  Guys died in Iltis' so they were replaced with G Wagons....more guys died and those weren't deemed safe enough so only armoured vehicles could leave the wire.

And Royaldrew...frankly your comment about small towns not needing it and should call in different "tiers" of policing...well obviously you don't know how the real world works.  When a call for help goes out they don't magically teleport to where the issue is.  What if that APC is several hours away?  Then what?  I remember several times overseas when we needed QRF  and it wasn't available right away....not a fun situation to be in.

Either way this whole argument is pointless....police beefing up isn't going anywhere and that makes me happy.  I'd much rather a service be overprepared and maybe stop something before it gets out of control then learning the hard way which so many people on this board (and the CF in general) seem to insist on.

 

[cupper]

:Tin-Foil-Hat: I tell ya, it's Obama's fault. He's turning Homeland Security into a para military organization. So he can use them when he becomes dictator. Blame it all on Obama. :Tin-Foil-Hat:

Nope, this one falls squarely on the God that all Conservatives pray to, Ronald Reagan, and his War on Drugs.

Obama is just reaping the benefits of the forward thinking Great Communicator.

In fact, Obama probably is sitting back and saying "this one's for the Gipper". ;D

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

But when you send enough Homeland Security agents to have people classify it as a raid, maybe you need to rethink the optics. They don't go into detail as to exact numbers of DHS agents or if there was a Tac team there, so I'm not judging one way or the other.

ONE person [ the 'victim'] I might add.........at least in those articles.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Good. 

RCDcpl we aren't talking war here.  We are talking using the wrong piece of equipment for the job.

Now you guys are mind fuckin' readers.......I'm done with this thread.

This may surprise you but in the trade I work we step into each others 'territory' all the time if it means solving a crisis sooner/faster.    Are you telling me you would send back equipment that might keep your soldiers safer because internet trolls might poo-poo it??

 

[cupper]

;D

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I honestly can't believe the nonsense I've read in this thread...from members of the CF no less.

Whine whine whine the police have mean looking things...this may come as a shock to you guys, but a lot of people in this country aren't very nice.  Shocking I know.

You're right that some people (i.e. a small portion, not a lot of people as you seem to suggest) aren't very nice but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be dealt with in a professional manner befitting of a society that governs itself with the highest values for rights and freedoms.

It's like I said before..better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.  Does anyone remember the Hollywood bank shootout in the 90's?  LAPD wasn't equipped with long guns and it wasn't until people died due their to inability to respond to the threat, that rifles became the norm in cruisers.

  Actually nobody died other than the two perpetrators and they would have died sooner had any of the dozens of officers been able to hit the broad side of a barn given the hundreds of rounds they fired... perhaps it's better we don't arm more officers given that some of them seem to know little about actual firearms?   

Why wait until worst case scenario to THEN get prepared?  The CF did that quite a bit in Afghanistan and how many lives were lost?  Guys died in Iltis' so they were replaced with G Wagons....more guys died and those weren't deemed safe enough so only armoured vehicles could leave the wire.

  Way to judge mission success based on body count but i digress.... comparing the work of the police to fighting in a war
is a stretch and honestly, seeing that you are a police officer I find that a tad alarming.  I don't want police coming through my door with a "close with and destroy the enemy" mindset.

And Royaldrew...frankly your comment about small towns not needing it and should call in different "tiers" of policing...well obviously you don't know how the real world works.  When a call for help goes out they don't magically teleport to where the issue is.  What if that APC is several hours away?  Then what?  I remember several times overseas when we needed QRF  and it wasn't available right away....not a fun situation to be in.

Either way this whole argument is pointless....police beefing up isn't going anywhere and that makes me happy.  I'd much rather a service be overprepared and maybe stop something before it gets out of control then learning the hard way which so many people on this board (and the CF in general) seem to insist on.

  Ever heard of the Mission Task Verb CONTAIN?  Who says you need to go in right away?  Maybe rather than rushing in guns blazing you can actually use your head and assess the situation.  Time spent on recce is never wasted.

 

[J.J]

I honestly can't believe the nonsense I've read in this thread...from members of the CF no less.

Whine whine whine the police have mean looking things...this may come as a shock to you guys, but a lot of people in this country aren't very nice.  Shocking I know.

It's like I said before..better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.  Does anyone remember the Hollywood bank shootout in the 90's?  LAPD wasn't equipped with long guns and it wasn't until people died due their to inability to respond to the threat, that rifles became the norm in cruisers.  Why wait until worst case scenario to THEN get prepared?  The CF did that quite a bit in Afghanistan and how many lives were lost?  Guys died in Iltis' so they were replaced with G Wagons....more guys died and those weren't deemed safe enough so only armoured vehicles could leave the wire.

And Royaldrew...frankly your comment about small towns not needing it and should call in different "tiers" of policing...well obviously you don't know how the real world works.  When a call for help goes out they don't magically teleport to where the issue is.  What if that APC is several hours away?  Then what?  I remember several times overseas when we needed QRF  and it wasn't available right away....not a fun situation to be in.

Either way this whole argument is pointless....police beefing up isn't going anywhere and that makes me happy.  I'd much rather a service be overprepared and maybe stop something before it gets out of control then learning the hard way which so many people on this board (and the CF in general) seem to insist on.

This site has lost contributing members because of the some of the commentary towards law enforcement. If I started posting articles and third hand knowledge about how an infantry battalion should operate and how a section should be equipped because I spoke to my uncles neighbor who used to be in the infantry I would in very short order told to STFU and stay in my lanes. I chuckle at the irony and the public wonders why there is an us against them attitude.
I'm not saying the public doesn't have the right to question where their tax dollars are going, but you can't have Sheriff Taylor in Mayberry,that's not realistic in today's environment.
And yes we are  biased because of our job, because we see more and know more than the average citizen or journalist.

 

[RCDtpr]

You're right that some people (i.e. a small portion, not a lot of people as you seem to suggest) aren't very nice but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be dealt with in a professional manner befitting of a society that governs itself with the highest values for rights and freedoms.
  Actually nobody died other than the two perpetrators and they would have died sooner had any of the dozens of officers been able to hit the broad side of a barn given the hundreds of rounds they fired... perhaps it's better we don't arm more officers given that some of them seem to know little about actual firearms?   
  Way to judge mission success based on body count but i digress.... comparing the work of the police to fighting in a war
is a stretch and honestly, seeing that you are a police officer I find that a tad alarming.  I don't want police coming through my door with a "close with and destroy the enemy" mindset.
  Ever heard of the Mission Task Verb CONTAIN?  Who says you need to go in right away?  Maybe rather than rushing in guns blazing you can actually use your head and assess the situation.  Time spent on recce is never wasted.

Well if, god forbid, I ever have to respond to a school shooting in progress (luckily they never happen).....I'll be sure to recce the crap out of it first.

Royal I pose this question to you, as I'm pretty sure you're an officer.  Let's put yourself in the same position that chief of police was in at one point.  Someone comes upto you and says hey Royal, I have this great piece of kit...you probably won't ever need it, but it could potentially save the life of an innocent person or one of your men.  It's normally ten dollars but I'll give it to you for 1.  Would you turn down said piece of kit?

 

[RCDtpr]

Good. 

RCDcpl we aren't talking war here.  We are talking using the wrong piece of equipment for the job.

You're familiar with how to do my job are you?  Good to know

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

This site has lost contributing members because of the some of the commentary towards law enforcement. If I started posting articles and third hand knowledge about how an infantry battalion should operate and how a section should be equipped because I spoke to my uncles neighbor who used to be in the infantry I would in very short order told to STFU and stay in my lanes. I chuckle at the irony and the public wonders why there is an us against them attitude.
I'm not saying the public doesn't have the right to question where their tax dollars are going, but you can't have Sheriff Taylor in Mayberry,that's not realistic in today's environment.
And yes we are  biased because of our job, because we see more and know more than the average citizen or journalist.

WR, nobody is blaming the average patrolman here for anything that is happening.  When I am speaking about LE I am talking about the institution itself, not the actual members.  I've already stated earlier that I respect police officers for what they do and have to deal with.  If I made any off the cuff remarks I apologize and would re-iterate it's not personal but used merely to emphasize a point.

 

[RCDtpr]

Well if, god forbid, I ever have to respond to a school shooting in progress (luckily they never happen).....I'll be sure to recce the crap out of it first.  This just goes to show you have zero clue what you're talking about and are out of your lane.  Police officers are taught from the academy and up these days that containment is a thing of the past.  We train IARD because there is a public expectation we act.  You may be content to stand outside a building and listen to innocent people get killed.....I'm not.

Royal I pose this question to you, as I'm pretty sure you're an officer.  Let's put yourself in the same position that chief of police was in at one point.  Someone comes upto you and says hey Royal, I have this great piece of kit...you probably won't ever need it, but it could potentially save the life of an innocent person or one of your men.  It's normally ten dollars but I'll give it to you for 1.  Would you turn down said piece of kit?

 

[J.J]

  Actually nobody died other than the two perpetrators and they would have died sooner had any of the dozens of officers been able to hit the broad side of a barn given the hundreds of rounds they fired... perhaps it's better we don't arm more officers given that some of them seem to know little about actual firearms?   

I am lucky if I can fire more than 51 rds of ammunition a year, because of budgetary reasons,  but I can imagine the outcry about militarizing the police if more money was spent on ammo and range time. There are so many hours available in a year for training. So far this year I've had to take ethics and values training, hearing conservation, visible minority awareness, mental health crisis interaction, customer service and 1 hour of shooting. Doesn't sound to SWAT like to me....

 

[RCDtpr]

WR, nobody is blaming the average patrolman here for anything that is happening.  When I am speaking about LE I am talking about the institution itself, not the actual members.  I've already stated earlier that I respect police officers for what they do and have to deal with.  If I made any off the cuff remarks I apologize and would re-iterate it's not personal but used merely to emphasize a point.

Dude, if you could be any more dramatic I'd give you an emmy award!

Will I'm done here...I'm not going to argue with you.

As for the Emmy award comment....go ask the guys who responded to sandy hook if they would like one....they earned it I guess.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Royal I pose this question to you, as I'm pretty sure you're an officer.  Let's put yourself in the same position that chief of police was in at one point.  Someone comes upto you and says hey Royal, I have this great piece of kit...you probably won't ever need it, but it could potentially save the life of an innocent person or one of your men.  It's normally ten dollars but I'll give it to you for 1.  Would you turn down said piece of kit?

Of course I would want it; however, I will go back to my earlier point which I think was lost in our slap fest....

cops are much like soldiers, we always think we need more resources to do the job at hand and we think the government is never giving us enough.  We also always think our individual situation is worse than anyone elses.  It's the #1 reason why we aren't allowed to make any REAL decisions or police ourselves.  We are almost always incapable of objective self-reflection.

This is why we have civilian oversight

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I am lucky if I can fire more than 51 rds of ammunition a year, because of budgetary reasons,  but I can imagine the outcry about militarizing the police if more money was spent on ammo and range time. There are so many hours available in a year for training. So far this year I've had to take ethics and values training, hearing conservation, visible minority awareness, mental health crisis interaction, customer service and 1 hour of shooting. Doesn't sound to SWAT like to me....

Agreed but maybe it's time for a discussion on training, something your leadership should be having.  I think maybe we are muddying the waters a bit here at well because obviously Canada is different than the United States. 

 

[J.J]

Our bosses would love to give us more training, I honestly believe that, but it comes down to budget and time. There is a significant amount of mandatory training we are obligated to complete yearly and very little is on the range or tactics. We are given directions by our political masters on what they want from us and marksmanship isn't high on the list.
We like to think we are different from the US, but I disagree, we aren't, we are just 10-15 years behind them.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Our bosses would love to give us more training, I honestly believe that, but it comes down to budget and time. There is a significant amount of mandatory training we are obligated to complete yearly and very little is on the range or tactics. We are given directions by our political masters on what they want from us and marksmanship isn't high on the list.
We like to think we are different from the US, but I disagree, we aren't, we are just 10-15 years behind them.

Sorry, this is what I meant WRT different.  Socially we follow in step with the US with trends usually occurring here a few years after they occur in the US.  Right now a serious political discussion is beginning to emerge in the US about this because people are quite frankly fed up with it.  It hasn't hit here yet because we haven't gone in that direction yet but will it is the question?

I view the Ferguson, MO shooting through the same lense as the Sammi Yatim shooting in Toronto.  Situations were somewhat similar but the responses were markedly different.  Our police did a far better job handling the fall out from the Yatim shooting, I just hope it stays that way.