Mess Kit and Other Anti-Air Force Ramblings Split from: Air Force

[aesop081]

If you want to play it that way, then yes, the Exercise situation required it, there was an EN AA threat, and we were tactical. In the "Real World", no, it was not required, there were no Grenobians with MANPADS, but by that logic, you should never train at all!

We are constantly told to "train like you fight", it is frustrating when the AF does not do it as well. I thought we were a team!

If the scenario required it, then NOE flying should have been the order of the day, IMHO.  I did not have that information in your previous posts.  I do however hope you will consider what i said in the future.

And also, dont paint us all with the same brush.  I'm pretty sure that we, in the CP-140 community, train exactly as we would fight.  If you doubt it, i will gladly arrange a flight with us for you to come and see.  Bring a puke bag.....

 

[Good2Golf]

Probably fair to say that not all Tac Hel units are of like mind....

 

[paracowboy]

Probably fair to say that not all Tac Hel units are of like mind....

considering GO!!!'s and my experiences with them here, and mine in Pet, I can say "Oh, yeah!"

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Would you not put your more aggressive pilots into Tac Hel?

 

[GO!!!]

Would you not put your more aggressive pilots into Tac Hel?

You mean, the ones with black lace underwear, as opposed to white?

JK, 

 

[Zoomie]

Dude - if you have a loadie flying in the back of a Griffon with you, you've got a lot more problems than a C-6 with stoppages.

Can't say that I have worked for a TacHel unit before - so nothing I can say will have any bearing to this conversation.  What I can say is that TacHel units deploy wherever the brass tells them to go.  They were in Haiti, Bosnia, Somalia and other $hit-holes across the world.

Maybe Duey can shed some light as to why your experiences with the rotor-head boys was less than favourable.  Everyone of those guys that I know would relish the thought of flying low and fast - maybe they really didn't want you guys puking and $hitting your pants while in flight.  We are taught right at the get-go to fly fast and low.  A Sea-King came to visit us once at Moose Jaw - I flew that thing so low that we had to look both ways when flying over train-tracks!

Like AESOP said - we usually always train as we fight.  Most times we take it easy when we have inexperienced air-crew on board.

 

[paracowboy]

I don't know why this is, but there is a distinct difference between the pilots who'd fly us around in Pet (and the ones I've worked with from out of Quebec) and the ones out here in Edmonton. Not necessarily in skill, but very noticeably in attitude. Not just in the air, but in most respects. It's very odd to me. While I've talked with a few pilots, one-to-one, and they've been pretty much the same as the ones I've talked to in Pet, the Unit, as a whole entity (if you follow me) gives a very strange vibe, and does some very strange stuff on Exercise.

And of course, GO!!! using his usual size: extra-large/extra-wide brush, is busily painting away.

 

[mover1]

I have flown with the Tac Hel Sqn out of Edmonton on a few occasions. We were only slinging targets onto the ranges in Cold Lake but the pilots seemed to like to keep low and in the weeds out of fear of getting whacked by a stray fighter plane who himself was flying low and in the weeds.

Our flight plan didn't call for it but the pilot thought we were safer by flying low, besides it made a rather routine day of slinging kind of fun.

I find some army guys are very negative when it comes to the Airforce... Jealousy I guess

 

[Inch]

Good first step!

Now all they need is a helicopter that is deployable and some aircrew with the stones to fly it lower than 2000 feet!

AdminHel!

2000ft? You know this how? By looking at the radalt of course, oh, wait a minute, the radalt only reads up to 1000ft. If you're looking at the barometric altimeter, then news flash for you, that reads altitude above sea level, in Moose Jaw for example, the elevation of the field was 1900ft, so flying at 2000ft on the baralt is 100ft above the ground.

It's been my experience that most crunchies don't know the first thing about flying, in fact I know a few army officers that are pilot failures, so be aware of your sources for critiquing us.

Sigh.

What I meant was that:

1. The Gryphons are largely undeployable. If anyone can list when they've been deployed anywhere but the "mature" rotos to Bosnia, I'm all ears.

1. It's Griffons and Haiti has already been mentioned.

2. The "Tac" in my experience is wildly overstated. I've spent plenty of time in the Gryphons, and their pilots, as a group, have a penchant for flying high and fast, during the day, and little else.

Not sure what unit you're flying with, but if it was the boys out of Cold Lake, they're not TacHel. Any time I went flying in the Griffon while I was waiting for training, we were 4-10 ft above the ground and making aggressive climbs to avoid fences.

Come to think of it, when I'm flying Sea Kings for anything other than instrument flying (which your guys may have been doing since it is a monthly requirement for us and we try to get it in when we can), I rarely go above 500ft. When I do it's briefly for a radar picture or practice autorotations. So I have my doubts that a TacHel crew would be bombing around at 2000ft when low flying is their bread and butter.

3. Constant protests that the "rules" prohibit anything else don't hold much water when British and Kiwi exchange pilots are flying so low the gophers are scattering while the other pilots on the lift insist on staying at altitude. When asked why, the Canadian pilots stutter and the kiwi says "it was authorised, so I did it".

I've flown with a British exchange pilot and it was my experience that he wasn't as shit hot as he would have led everyone to believe. I'm with the other zoomies, just because it was done doesn't mean it was prudent. You're in the back of the aircraft without comms, how the hell do you know the whole picture as it applies to the aircraft you're in? You don't.

4. Loadies and their gunnery "skills". <tee hee> on our last ex, one loadie saw some enemy, and attempted to engage them with his door mounted C6. He had no luck, as he had numerous stoppages, never getting off a round. Fortunately, there was an infantry officer present who informed him that the belt on his wpn was in the box and feed tray upside down.

More?

Loadie on a Griffon eh? Not in this country. We've never had problems with our AESOps or Navigators using the C6 to great effect in the Sea King, I doubt that an experienced FE that you would find on a Griffon would be any different.

 

[GO!!!]

2000ft? You know this how? By looking at the radalt of course, oh, wait a minute, the radalt only reads up to 1000ft. If you're looking at the barometric altimeter, then news flash for you, that reads altitude above sea level, in Moose Jaw for example, the elevation of the field was 1900ft, so flying at 2000ft on the baralt is 100ft above the ground.

Why you are right, none of us ever carry altimeters for anything, like parachuting maybe, or dead reckoning from long periods of time in the air due to having jobs outside the military that necessitated helo travel. Some of us are even smart enough to differentiate between ASL and AGL. Not everyone though.  :

It's been my experience that most crunchies don't know the first thing about flying, in fact I know a few army officers that are pilot failures, so be aware of your sources for critiquing us.

....and I beat up a pilot before I joined the military. I guess you're all wimps. You can borrow my broad brush if you like.

1. It's Griffons and Haiti has already been mentioned.

Noted, I stand corrected.

Not sure what unit you're flying with, but if it was the boys out of Cold Lake, they're not TacHel. Any time I went flying in the Griffon while I was waiting for training, we were 4-10 ft above the ground and making aggressive climbs to avoid fences.

408 Sqn, based in Edmonton. I've never seen that type of flying out of a Canadian pilot. I guess they save all the good times for the guys on PAT platoon.

Come to think of it, when I'm flying Sea Kings for anything other than instrument flying (which your guys may have been doing since it is a monthly requirement for us and we try to get it in when we can), I rarely go above 500ft. When I do it's briefly for a radar picture or practice autorotations. So I have my doubts that a TacHel crew would be bombing around at 2000ft when low flying is their bread and butter.

Bread and butter or not, they fly high and fast, nearly all of the time they fly us around.

I've flown with a British exchange pilot and it was my experience that he wasn't as crap hot as he would have led everyone to believe. I'm with the other zoomies, just because it was done doesn't mean it was prudent. You're in the back of the aircraft without comms, how the hell do you know the whole picture as it applies to the aircraft you're in? You don't.

If you turn around, you'll see an extra headset, it is for what we call a "chalk commander" or the senior man of the troops whom it is your job to transport. We are also given things called "orders" which include met reps, tactical situations, routes, timings, LZ/PZ and a host of other things. We know exactly what is going on in the context of the exercise scenario. It makes our little infanteer heads spin though, so we write it all down. When we're doing a raid though, and our H c/s flies over the objective on the way in and out with his spotlight on to blind us with our NVGs, hes wrong. Full stop.

Loadie on a Griffon eh? Not in this country. We've never had problems with our AESOps or Navigators using the C6 to great effect in the Sea King, I doubt that an experienced FE that you would find on a Griffon would be any different.

I see. Should we question FEs as to their seniority before we allow one to man a C6? It is "his" bird, but we might actually need that gun to shoot someone, so it has to be loaded properly. Please advise.

 

[Infanteer]

What does this have to do with a blue name tag?

 

[aesop081]

What does this have to do with a blue name tag?

You would think that after 8543 posts you would be able to figure that one out on your own  ;D

P.S. Its another army VS air force thing.......

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

The famous or is it infamous Army.ca tangent.

 

[aesop081]

The famous or is it infamous Army.ca tangent.

a little from column A, a little from column B......

 

[Inch]

Why you are right, none of us ever carry altimeters for anything, like parachuting maybe, or dead reckoning from long periods of time in the air due to having jobs outside the military that necessitated helo travel. Some of us are even smart enough to differentiate between ASL and AGL. Not everyone though.  :

BS. I fly for a living and I have a hard time telling how high I am without looking at my instruments. What are your altimeters set to? You are aware of pressure changes aren't you? Of course you are.

....and I beat up a pilot before I joined the military. I guess you're all wimps. You can borrow my broad brush if you like.

Exactly why I said "in my experience, most..." which in English means that I wasn't painting everyone with a broad brush, but only the ones I have met.

408 Sqn, based in Edmonton. I've never seen that type of flying out of a Canadian pilot. I guess they save all the good times for the guys on PAT platoon.

We don't have PAT Platoons for pilots awaiting training, but hardly a point worth bringing up.

Bread and butter or not, they fly high and fast, nearly all of the time they fly us around.

Matter of opinion I guess, I have a lot of good buddies that love flying low and fast in the Griffon.

If you turn around, you'll see an extra headset, it is for what we call a "chalk commander" or the senior man of the troops whom it is your job to transport. We are also given things called "orders" which include met reps, tactical situations, routes, timings, LZ/PZ and a host of other things. We know exactly what is going on in the context of the exercise scenario. It makes our little infanteer heads spin though, so we write it all down. When we're doing a raid though, and our H c/s flies over the objective on the way in and out with his spotlight on to blind us with our NVGs, hes wrong. Full stop.

Agreed on the last sentence. As for your extra headset, which radios do you have selected? All of them or just the tactical freq? We have the capability to listen to 4 different radios in the Sea King, up front we listen to two of them while the back enders handle the other 2 and share the UHF with us. Our pax in the back very rarely have radios selected, if they do its just so they know when to shut up on the ICS.

I see. Should we question FEs as to their seniority before we allow one to man a C6? It is "his" bird, but we might actually need that gun to shoot someone, so it has to be loaded properly. Please advise.

Never said that, our guys in the Sea King don't shoot the C6 unless a qualified FPSO and RSO is on board. If they're qualified FPSO, why would they be loading the C6 wrong? I just can't see it though I'm sure you did for yourself and it wasn't one of those embellished 2nd hand stories, right?

 

[beenthere]

Their's no place better than this one to argue trivial crap. CADPAT name-tags??
When I started flying there was an army and an air force and army flyers weren't accepted by either. The army folks referred to us as pansies because we lived better than they did when we ventured into the field and the air force called us pongos and said that we had no business in the air and belonged in the mud.
It's interesting to see that nothing has changed and despite years of progress in equipment and better educated people occupying both crew and passenger seats the same mentality prevails allowing both crew and their cargo to work together in almost total ignorance of what their respective roles are.
There have always been rare exceptions of course but just as sure as the sun rises in the east which also has rare exceptions the same arguments continue.
Thanks for the memories guys. 

 

[Good2Golf]

Beenthere, save for computers on desks vice typewriters, everything else would feel very familiar! 

Cheers,
Duey

 

[beenthere]

Duey. In the good old days 1THP even had a motorcycle.  8)

 

[beenthere]

Duey. In the good old days 1THP  had a motorcycle and a Hiller  8) Kind of a double post because I'd forgotten to include the CH-112 Hiller Sports Helicopter.

 

[Good2Golf]

Duey. In the good old days 1THP  had a motorcycle and a Hiller  8) Kind of a double post because I'd forgotten to include the CH-112 Hiller Sports Helicopter.

Hey beenthere, I think LGen Cuppens had Hiller time, IIRC.  I was just shooting the poop with past 450 HCol Lorne Rodenbush a month or so ago about 1 Thump days leading into 450 Tp Hel Sqn...was also sharing stories with Les Rowbottom, as well...some real great old gents from tactical aviation's early days.

Cheers,
Duey