Mess Kit and Other Anti-Air Force Ramblings Split from: Air Force

[Strike]

Of course, then there was the CADPAT model with the buttons covered that was suposed to be issued to the AF first.  Try tellin that to our supply.  I don't understand how SAR bases and units based on a ship can get all this crap before a unit that actually works in the field.  No oeffence to you guys out there.  It's just a little annoying.

That brings up all the nice kit the Army has -- Tac Vest, day pack, and new ruck (what is the volume of that anyway?).  But we're stuck with the old webbing that kills your shoulders, and rucks that have a frame made for someone who's over 6'2" and carry the same amount as the new CADPAT day pack.  Wassup with that?

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Ok Strike I don't know who you've been talking too but the new ruck is no where in sight.  The Day pack is nice so far but I haven't had it that long nor field tested it and the TV although I feel fits better isn't much good for offensive operations and has very little space and even less modularity (if that's a word).

The CADPAT with covered buttons is a design compromise so that the military doesn't have to make two different sets of combats. 

As for distribution lets just say that the old cmbt jacket was made in Winnipeg and 2VP (which was stationed in Wpg) was one of the last CMBT ARMS units to recieve it.

 

[Strike]

The tac vest would give those of us that fly a little closer to the ground a little more leeway if (Heaven forbid) we had to dismount.  No digging around behind the seat for my mags.  The big thought is, should we go down, would we really want to go running around trying to be all stealth like with that wonderful webbing banging about?  No way.  If we had a proper (even modified flying) vest we could grab our weapon and get out.  It's a little faster that getting out, going to the back, untwisting the caribiner (sp?) that is holding the webbing to the cargo net, unclipping it, throwing it on, and running.  Give me a day pack with my SERE kit and I'm a happy camper -- oh, and a C8 too.

 

[GO!!!]

Strike,

The new Tac Vest is just the old LBV, but in CADPAT, with no pouches on the back. 4 Mags, 2 canteens, and some other tiny little pouches that don't really fit anything all that well. It is just as uncomfortable as the webbing. My unit has tried (and failed) to be issued the old webbing instead, because at least the old stuff can be worn when jumping, and can carry the requisite equipment.

The new day pack is'nt bad.

And pardon me, but you don't need this stuff in the Air Force. I have worn webbing for triple digits some years - deployed and not - and it should be issued to reg force cbt arms units first, and their augmentees. And they should have to give it back when they leave. Giving CADPAT webbing and rucks to the air force is just a waste, unless you are going to start doing army stuff too.

 

[Strike]

unless you are going to start doing army stuff too.

I'm Tac Hel.  We are the majority of the AF but are still considered the bastard children.  Include the Herc guys that have been whipping around in the desert too.

When I'm on Ex I don't go staying in a hotel.  That's for when we are doing air shows.  I think the guys that went to Ramore did stay in hotels, but only because the helos could not be co-located with the camp, and the hotel was much closer to them.  Otherwise, we are staying in the same tents and buildings.

The point is, we DO do Army stuff when we're deployed; we live with the Army and we eat with the Army -- unless we bring our own cooks 'cause they kick a$$.  ;D  I still would prefer flying with the Tac Vest available if I were to go down.

I have worn webbing for triple digits some years - deployed and not - and it should be issued to reg force cbt arms units first, and their augmentees.

Although I agree with the method of issue, this only seems to work when it is most benifitial -- doesn't explain why the Army was getting the new CADPATs with the buttons covered, when it was suposed to start out as AF issue first.

Point is, I want a TV and a C8, 'cause it will sit behind my seat much better and is WAY more accessible in a bad situation.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Although I agree with the method of issue, this only seems to work when it is most benifitial -- doesn't explain why the Army was getting the new CADPATs with the buttons covered, when it was suposed to start out as AF issue first.

The covered buttons, like the CADPAT raingear, are a joint effort mandated by the top, to alleviate the expense of two different projects and two different sets of gear. They do not belong to one service or the other. Nobody was singled out as "They're ours, we get them first". As with most things, someone way out of our loop decides who needs it the most and where it will go first, right or wrong.

As to the vest. Don't the jet jockeys have a vest they wear? I'm sure I've seen AF types walking around with an OD vest. Would that not do for now? As to the C8, they're in short supply, even for the gunfighters. You'd probably get a C7A2 easier. Almost the same and, I would think, adequate for the purpose.

We can't change it for you here, but I bet a well written paper by you, sent through the right channels, will get you an answer. You may not like that answer, but c'est la vie, you tried. You may also want to remember that old adage also, "Don't wish for what you don't really want" 

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

"The point is, we DO do Army stuff when we're deployed; we live with the Army and we eat with the Army -- unless we bring our own cooks 'cause they kick a$$."

I'd pay good money to see you guys live with the Army.

"The covered buttons, like the CADPAT rain gear, are a joint effort mandated by the top, to alleviate the expense of two different projects and two different sets of gear. They do not belong to one service or the other. Nobody was singled out as "They're ours, we get them first". As with most things, someone way out of our loop decides who needs it the most and where it will go first, right or wrong."

I thought I said this.  Except we have yet to see the rain gear.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I thought I said this.   Except we have yet to see the rain gear.

You an' me both, a couple of times around here. Just gotta keep reiterating it, some people don't read well

 

[Zoomie]

I'd pay good money to see you guys live with the Army.

LOL - yup...  A few comments caught around the newly established Airforce/Army defensive position.

"What do you mean porta-potties with baby wipes and satellite TV isn't part of living in the field???"

"Where's my cot?"

"You want me to do what at 0300??"

 

[GO!!!]

Further to the "Tac" Hel unit in Edmonton,

Remember 2 or three winters ago when 408 needed to be "Op Ready" for some reason?

3VP was Enemy force, and Pl and section raids captured maps, vehicles, officers (until told to stop) etc, with the whole ex culminating in a Coy raid on 408's defensive position.

For the whole Squadron, there was ONE C6 trench and ONE fire trench. The only reaction to enemy fire (ours) was to jump up and place huge OUT OF PLAY signs on everything in sight.

When "killed" 408 pers objected to lying in the snow as "it's cold - HELLOOOO"

Oh, and watching 408 pers scream in agony - because we had captured their weapons and ammo, and were now dirtying one with the other, and leaving them behind for them to clean - was just icing on the cake.

I have yet, in 7 years in the army to see a "Tac" Helicopter squadron do anything more tactical than fly on windless nights with the doors open, provided all the mags were off of course

So, NO, you can't have a C8. :threat:

 

[Good2Golf]

Further to the "Tac" Hel unit in Edmonton,

Remember 2 or three winters ago when 408 needed to be "Op Ready" for some reason?

3VP was Enemy force, and Pl and section raids captured maps, vehicles, officers (until told to stop) etc, with the whole ex culminating in a Coy raid on 408's defensive position.

For the whole Squadron, there was ONE C6 trench and ONE fire trench. The only reaction to enemy fire (ours) was to jump up and place huge OUT OF PLAY signs on everything in sight.

When "killed" 408 pers objected to lying in the snow as "it's cold - HELLOOOO"

Oh, and watching 408 pers scream in agony - because we had captured their weapons and ammo, and were now dirtying one with the other, and leaving them behind for them to clean - was just icing on the cake.

I have yet, in 7 years in the army to see a "Tac" Helicopter squadron do anything more tactical than fly on windless nights with the doors open, provided all the mags were off of course

So, NO, you can't have a C8. :threat:

Don't kid yourself, GO...you'll be begging to be Cbt Arms Spec on an MH-47G spewing 6,000 rds/min of 7.26 out of an M-134 mini-gun!  ;D

If you ask nice, we may even give you a set of "honourary" blue name tape and slip-ons! 

Cheers,
Duey

 

[Scoobs]

First off, to the question of whether or not Air Force units need CADPAT, army kit, etc.  The reality, whether GO!! likes it or not Tac Hel deploys to the field with the Army in order to support the Army.  Key word, support.  We are not the Army.  We don't pretend to be, but if we are told to go to the field (and do so readily) the reality is that we need to have the proper equipment for the job.  If that involves having the tac vest or any of the other "in short supply" items, then we should get them.  I shouldn't have to go to Base Supply and be told that because I belong to an Air Force unit I can't have the proper equipment.  Last time I checked we are on the same base for a reason.  I have to agree with other contributors that it amazes me that units in Comox get their kit before units in Tac Hel get them.  Once again NDHQ and 1 Cdn Air Div are out of touch with the pointy end of the stick, i.e. operational units.
Just for GO!!'s education (since it is obvious that ignorance has resulted in some misplaced comments), Tac Hel has been in Somolia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Haita, etc. just in the last 15 plus years.  Also, anybody that tells you that Tac Hel doesn't have representation on the ground in Afghanistan is obviously not well informed.  The first experience with the UAVs in Afghanistan had the Ops O coming from Tac Hel, techs from 430 and 438 Sqn, and perhaps other units (I don't pretend to know if more pers came from other Air Force units).  The UAVs now rest within 1 Wing and will be in theatre soon (won't mention when, even though it may already be somewhere on this site).  I highly suggest that pers posting on this site educate themselves prior to offering their opinions, just like I wouldn't dream of offering my opinion on Artillery or Armour issues.
Most people don't know that the idea of using blue nametags, epilets, and t-shirts came from the current CF CWO, who used to be the AF CWO.  Apparently, the former MND (John M) couldn't tell the Air Force pers from the Army pers in Bosnia, so the then AF CWO came up with this idea.  Hmm, the blue beret and EAGLE on the beret and name tag wasn't enough?  Hmm, seems like another case of ignorance, although I suspect the "strong beverages" that the former MND likes may have had something to do with his inability to differentiate between AF and LF.
Yes, the blue nametags and epilets are extremely hard to see.  This brain dead idea should be put out to pasture and a solution implemented.  Like any good soldier, airman, or sailor, if you're going to whine then you should come up with a solution.  An easy one, which most likely won't cost a lot of money since I suspect that we already have a large stock of them, is to utilize the old olive drab ranks with the CADPAT.  I don't ever recall having a problem seeing these types of epilets.
Saluting or not saluting.  Anyone that fishes for salutes should not be an officer.  Saluting goes both ways and is a sign of respect, both for the rank and given back to the person doing the saluting.  There are proper times when to salute and when not to and we all know this, whether you're in the Air Force, Army, or Navy.  Enough said about saluting.
As for Medium/Heavy lift helos, according to the National Post, the AF will submit to the MND this month a proposal to replace the Hercs, SAR a/c (Buffs), and to buy up to 20 Chinooks.  Looks like the medium/heavy lift may be sooner down the road than some people think, although with the Liberals I won't hold my breath (because I'd suffocate myself   ).
1 Wing is not part of the Army.  It is part of the Air Force and reports to 1 Cdn Air Div in Winnipeg.  All Tac Hel units are part of 1 Wing and are lodger units on the Base and thus do not report to either the Base Comd or the Bde Comd.  Therefore, whether or not either wants the Air Force pers at Tac Hel units to wear the blue t-shirt or not does not matter.  Tac Hel units take their orders from 1 Wing.  I am definitely not trying to "snub my thumb" at the Army, but I am just pointing out a reality that Tac Hel units are not in the chain of command of the Army, unless the a/c or portions of the Sqn are given to the Army via TOCA.
The reality is that all three services are going to be expected to work together more often and not fight each other in the very near future.  This involves having the proper equipment and uniforms to do the job.  I agree that the AF needs to go to CADPAT (as Tac Hel has been leading the way for years now), but there is no need for the blue t-shirt, epilets, or name tags.  Let's stop wasting money on these silly ideas and put the money (including manhours, etc) into what we really need in the military (infrastructure, equipment, training, personnel, etc.).

Scoobs out....

 

[GO!!!]

I won't dig out all of the war stories about the lack of TacHel's tacticality, but I'll leave that part of the argument with the fact that I have flown in Gryphons, Chinooks, Blackhawks, Sea Stallions and Pave Low's, as well as a Puma and numerous civilian birds. All demonstrated a far higher level of speed and tactical movement when required than our venerable 408 squadron, who seems to be unable to even navigate without highway 14 to guide them to Wx.

Furthermore, I have yet to see tachel deploy in a tactical scenario that is on par with what the americans, kiwis or brits do on a regular basis. Just flying to Wx, and staging out of the camp is not tactical, nor is restricting army units to daylight travel. Besides, any helo squadron that is unable to fly with both a full load of troops and fuel has failed to deliver - IMHO.

As for the kit you believe you deserve? When it is issued out to all of the cbt arms units, who use it all the time, you can have it for the walk from the mess tent to the flight line - just like how we can't get issued flight gloves.

The major problem here (as I see it) is the misconception by the air force that they exist for any other purpose than to support army operations and exercises. Just think, if we went to an army air corps, the tachel squadrons could be under the permanent command of the army Bde's that they are co-located with, and be issued all of the webbing they wished.

 

[mover1]

The major problem here (as I see it) is the misconception by the air force that they exist for any other purpose than to support army operations and exercises. Just think, if we went to an army air corps, the tachel squadrons could be under the permanent command of the army Bde's that they are co-located with, and be issued all of the webbing they wished.

Your right. i better run across the tarmac and tell the Sar Techs and the Maritime Patrol guys that we should all feel ashamed of ourselves because of what we do for the country. Sorry master GO!!! i forgot my place in the world. Please don't send the hounds for me. I be a good servant to you.

 

[Good2Golf]

Just so guys don't think that Tac Hel (through the airforce) actively tried to shirk supporting the army, the army is not at all blameless in the Tac Hel degrading over the years issue.  In fact...the primary cause of it's "capability degradation" was the Army itself...  Regarding removal from service of the CH147 Chinook, CH136 Kiowa and CH135 Twin Huey, and endorsement of an aircraft such as the B412 (later to be known as the CH146 Griffon) for Army support....it was Comd FMC himself, LGen Ken Foster, who signed the order, not some light blue Air Force guy -- I have a PDF'd copy of it somewhere.  It would also have been nice to have the Army's support at JCRB in Apr 2003 when ERSTA and armed capability in support of armed reconaissance was being discussed.  VAdm Garnett asked the Army rep (I believe it was Gen McDonald) if the Army endorsed what the Air Force was trying to do to increase CH146 relevancy to the land forces...the reply (paraphrased) was that the Army was not in a position to endorse ERSTA at this time..."  thus the capability upgrade died.

Remember, folks are only as good as two things they have, training and kit.  I think Tac Hel folks have just about made as much as they could with the schisse sandwich that leads back nowhere else but FMC HQ in 1990.  Yeah, things are not optimal out there, but it isn't a) not for lack of effort, and b) not like things were fantastic prior to 1990 either.  I was fortunate to have support from my green brethren when I was developing the Army's requirement statement for Dedicated Aviation Support, especially support from MGen Herb Petras and BGen Mike Ward...a far cry from the "sell out" that some will call LGen Foster's decision to substantially cut aviation capability in 1990.  Hopefully things keep developing and we can get back on line providing relevant support throughout the spectrum.  :-\

Cheers,
Duey

p.s.  At least my CADPAT(AR) name and rank aren't made with blue thread...  ;D

 

[Scoobs]

I won't dig out all of the war stories about the lack of TacHel's tacticality, but I'll leave that part of the argument with the fact that I have flown in Gryphons, Chinooks, Blackhawks, Sea Stallions and Pave Low's, as well as a Puma and numerous civilian birds. All demonstrated a far higher level of speed and tactical movement when required than our venerable 408 squadron, who seems to be unable to even navigate without highway 14 to guide them to Wx.

Furthermore, I have yet to see tachel deploy in a tactical scenario that is on par with what the americans, kiwis or brits do on a regular basis. Just flying to Wx, and staging out of the camp is not tactical, nor is restricting army units to daylight travel. Besides, any helo squadron that is unable to fly with both a full load of troops and fuel has failed to deliver - IMHO.

As for the kit you believe you deserve? When it is issued out to all of the cbt arms units, who use it all the time, you can have it for the walk from the mess tent to the flight line - just like how we can't get issued flight gloves.

The major problem here (as I see it) is the misconception by the air force that they exist for any other purpose than to support army operations and exercises. Just think, if we went to an army air corps, the tachel squadrons could be under the permanent command of the army Bde's that they are co-located with, and be issued all of the webbing they wished.

I will not sink to GO!!'s level and insult the Army because I respect them and for what they do.  Perhaps GO!! should learn some respect for his fellow Canadian Force's members.  First off, the Griffon was not our choice, as detailed in the last reply.  We were stuck with it and are doing what we can with it.  I state again, Tac Hel is not the Army.  Tac Hel exists to support the Army.  Also, check your spelling of our helo, it is GRIFFON.  Also, should you not want to fly with 408 Sqn the next time you are in the field, just don't get on the helo.  Your choice.
Your ignorance astounds me.  Check your facts.  Griffons are equipped with NVGs and heads-up-display just for night flying.  I have a vague memory of our Griffons transporting the Army troops at night time.  Perhaps you should give your friends at 2 CMBG, specifically 3 RCR a call before you display your ignorance once again.
As for an Army Air Corps.  No problem.  Then perhaps you can learn what it takes to fly a helo and keep it in the air.  A lot harder than what you think. 
Flight gloves:  last time I checked you aren't in the Air Force and have no requirement for flying gloves.  Since Tac Hel pers are in the field and are expected to operate in the field, then they do deserve to have the proper equipment.  Do you fly an a/c?
The role of the AF is not to soley support the Army.  That ignorant opinion is the reason why these problems exist today.  Check your history.  Did the Germans or Japanese do so well without Air Superiority near the end of WWII?  Did the war in the Pacific end because the Army invaded the Japanese mainland?  No, the American AF ended it with the bomb.  All services work together to accomplish the aim.  If your isolationist thinking was more prevalent in the CF today, then any mission would sure be doomed for failure.

In summary, your silly and childish comments about the mess tent, etc. only demonstrate your ignorance once again.  I state again, educate yourself prior to offering your opinion.

 

[Zoomie]

Flight gloves:  last time I checked you aren't in the Air Force and have no requirement for flying gloves.  Since Tac Hel pers are in the field and are expected to operate in the field, then they do deserve to have the proper equipment. 

Interesting debate between the Rotorheads and the crunchies - I shall remain neutral and only fan the flames a little bit.

Scoobs, this debate was initially centered around the AF pers not getting C-8's and TacVest - how is this equipment essential in any means for AF pers?  If you are ever in the position to slam a mag home and strike the forward assist, you are dead already!  The army would be better served with flying gloves (which is essentially what the new gloves in CTS are) than the AF would be with any of the high-speed kit of the LFC.

Essential equipment for a TacHel unit should be bug bars, chem lights, kevlar helmets, etc - not gucci TacVests or assault rifles.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Scoobs,

If your a pilot, I hope you take valium. Your way to hyper to be flying anything I'm in. And we like your gloves cause they work, and we use them all the time. Even the US has recognised the usefullness of this type of glove and offers them for sale to all, in the PX. We buy them cause we can't get them issued. Maybe we should offer you the same option for our kit. Take a chill pill.

 

[GO!!!]

I will not sink to GO!!'s level and insult the Army because I respect them and for what they do.   Perhaps GO!! should learn some respect for his fellow Canadian Force's members.   First off, the Griffon was not our choice, as detailed in the last reply.   We were stuck with it and are doing what we can with it.   I state again, Tac Hel is not the Army.   Tac Hel exists to support the Army.   Also, check your spelling of our helo, it is GRIFFON.   Also, should you not want to fly with 408 Sqn the next time you are in the field, just don't get on the helo.   Your choice.
Your ignorance astounds me.   Check your facts.   Griffons are equipped with NVGs and heads-up-display just for night flying.   I have a vague memory of our Griffons transporting the Army troops at night time.   Perhaps you should give your friends at 2 CMBG, specifically 3 RCR a call before you display your ignorance once again.
As for an Army Air Corps.   No problem.   Then perhaps you can learn what it takes to fly a helo and keep it in the air.   A lot harder than what you think.  
Flight gloves:   last time I checked you aren't in the Air Force and have no requirement for flying gloves.   Since Tac Hel pers are in the field and are expected to operate in the field, then they do deserve to have the proper equipment.   Do you fly an a/c?
The role of the AF is not to soley support the Army.   That ignorant opinion is the reason why these problems exist today.   Check your history.   Did the Germans or Japanese do so well without Air Superiority near the end of WWII?   Did the war in the Pacific end because the Army invaded the Japanese mainland?   No, the American AF ended it with the bomb.   All services work together to accomplish the aim.   If your isolationist thinking was more prevalent in the CF today, then any mission would sure be doomed for failure.

In summary, your silly and childish comments about the mess tent, etc. only demonstrate your ignorance once again.   I state again, educate yourself prior to offering your opinion.

First off, the GRIFFON is a decent helicopter. I have taken the time to compare the numbers as to the capabilities of the CH146 to the old twin huey's and have come to the conclusion that 1) you are unable to fly the 146 to the edge of the envelope, or 2) simply unwilling.  Nuff said on the caps of the griffon.

TacHel may EXIST to support the army, however, what the CF intends and what the CF achieves are often miles apart. I sit on certain meetings (like the airborne co-ord) and every time, every statement from the blue side of the table is centered on them leaving earlier and doing less. Ie "do you really need to jump 3 times EACH? We could be gone by 1300 if you only jumped once!"

As to the night capabilities of the Griffon, once again, capability wasted. I have flown in griffons at night, with the aircrew wearing NVGs. It would have been far more impressive if they had neglected to fly over the objective 3 TIMES before dropping us off at the LOD, instead of the LZ, and then sat there, rotors turning for 11 MINUTES!!! Mind you, I have only seen this impressive feat once - I hope you did an equally stellar job for our friends out east.

Army Air Corps? The USMC, US Army, Brits and Kiwis use this system in conflicts around the world and have for fifty years - but I suppose you know better....

Sooooo... you need webbing more than the Cbt arms for....how many tactical exes do you do in a year? But I should'nt have flight gloves because "I have no requirement.."  That's pretty good logic.....

And in fact, I do fly aircraft, as do ALL of the members of my immediate and extended families. It is no dark art, and not all that hard - I even have 55 hrs on my rotary qual - so can the "ignorant" lines. You are a skilled cab driver - and don't you forget it.

As for the quote about the Germans and Japanese lack of air superiority in WWII, the comparison between a tachel sqn and the USAF in 1942-44 is ludicrous, but I suppose it panders to the typical pilot's delusions of grandeur.

The USAF  was busy engaging in the incendiary bombing of Japanese cities for the two years preceding VJ day, but were still unable to prevent such events as the battles for Midway, Iwo Jima or Hong Kong, mainly because they were not engaged in the tactical level targeting, being preoccupied with the strategic. This is due to the fact that only armies can take and hold ground, the AF and Acorps exist to facilitate this end.

In conclusion, I have had the privilege of flying with a number of excellent pilots in excellent AC.  Most of them were American, but we cannot compare ourselves to them all of the time. The best pilot I have ever seen in a griffon wore DPM,  because he was a brit - how embarrassing watching him demonstrate the capabilities of the griffon to the pilots who fly them. How about a knife edge landing in a Chinook in Afghanistan in a dust storm? Nope, no tachel pilots there either. Just good ole' army air corps.

Before I finish, just a few words on the "upgrades" the AF believed would benefit the griffon. I recall machine guns and hellfire or TOW missiles. Right. You want missiles when you are afraid to contour fly in Wx, and make all of the troops in the back unload and clear their wpns before boarding. Lets learn to walk before we run there boys.

Could you outline the field trg you have? I'm sure it is extensive, but I'm just curious.

 

[Good2Golf]

Actually, until the CTS gloves (CWW? other?) came on line, bombadiers were in fact authorized to draw flight gloves to handle the rounds -- DLM paid DSSPM an amount equivalent to the number of flying gloves issues to artillerymen so the AF wasn't able to whine about the Army leeching of AF kit.  Of course, flying gloves (and flying jackets) have not been on the official scale of the 911 sup tech standing behind the supply counter, AFAIK...  ;D

p.s.  given the shite heating of the CH146 in the winter during door open ops, I actually prefer wearing some of the army gloves...the crappy little brown gloves really are exactly that...crappy little brown stuff.

Cheers,
Duey