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I was married for 22 years. If ANYONE deserves a Domestic Ops Medal, it's me..... ;D
CHIMO, Kat
CHIMO, Kat
Medal for Domestic Operation?
- Thread starter John Nayduk
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If non of your co workers are being recognized for their 20 yrs or more service Bruce, take your managers to task.We did out west and several deserving members have been awarded the CESM.
Prior to that only managers were getting it.
Prior to that only managers were getting it.
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I'm all mixed up here. My hormones and stuff are going crazy. I don't personally like the idea for a Dom Ops medal, but if it happens, c'est le vie. If it does though, they better include everything the military (all three branches) have ever been called out on. The Olympics was the biggest thing we've done since the Korean War, we were armed and I was there for the better part of four months for two weeks worth of games. As were most of the Forces at the time. Everything that's happened since, where they've called us out should be counted.
As to the SSM being used, with another bar, I say horseshit. It's already been degraded with all the bars attached to it. When it came out, it was for NATO service in Germany, that was the reason for it. Not Alert and the rest. Now, I'll expect all the naysayers, who call it the "Beer and Bratwurst" medal to disagree, but for us that were there in the 60's and 70's before the Wall fell, we earned it. We spent most of the year on alert and exercise, away from home, in the mud. The threat was real, and we took it serious. I was part of a Centurion crew, with a life expectancy of 11 minutes. We worked hard and we played hard. For those that came after, good on you, but it wasn't the same thing. And nobody can argue it. If you don't have it, and you didn't experience it, to degrade it by calling it the B&B medal shows your ignorance.
If they want something for Dom Ops let them mint something new and distinctive, something like a soldier tossing a volley ball back over a high school fence to a bunch of local children, but don't hold your breath. Most of you will be applying for it online from the Heritage Dept after you retire. Even if it was approved tomorrow, by the time it's minted and the backlog is sorted, they've checked your bonafides, got fifteen signatures from your four previous dead CO's and RSM's, stamped by a local Notary Public, checked it out through DVA and set up the presentation with your local NDP MPP in the boarded up Legion that closed the week before, you'll be dead.
As to the SSM being used, with another bar, I say horseshit. It's already been degraded with all the bars attached to it. When it came out, it was for NATO service in Germany, that was the reason for it. Not Alert and the rest. Now, I'll expect all the naysayers, who call it the "Beer and Bratwurst" medal to disagree, but for us that were there in the 60's and 70's before the Wall fell, we earned it. We spent most of the year on alert and exercise, away from home, in the mud. The threat was real, and we took it serious. I was part of a Centurion crew, with a life expectancy of 11 minutes. We worked hard and we played hard. For those that came after, good on you, but it wasn't the same thing. And nobody can argue it. If you don't have it, and you didn't experience it, to degrade it by calling it the B&B medal shows your ignorance.
If they want something for Dom Ops let them mint something new and distinctive, something like a soldier tossing a volley ball back over a high school fence to a bunch of local children, but don't hold your breath. Most of you will be applying for it online from the Heritage Dept after you retire. Even if it was approved tomorrow, by the time it's minted and the backlog is sorted, they've checked your bonafides, got fifteen signatures from your four previous dead CO's and RSM's, stamped by a local Notary Public, checked it out through DVA and set up the presentation with your local NDP MPP in the boarded up Legion that closed the week before, you'll be dead.
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The SSM was not instituted solely for service in Germany or the European Theatre. There have been armed threats to Canadians during the cold war and since the cold war other than NATO Germany. It was instituted for Canadians that provided service in areas where a medal was not issued or the person did not have the required time to officially recognize their contributions. So a Domestic Ops clasp/bar would fit in.
ie
Alert was started in 1958 during the cold war and provide early waring from nuclear attack. It was more than likely targeted for destruction.
Peacekeeping started in 1947 with Korea
Pakistan 89-90. Engineers faced danger with live mines and there their disposal.
Rangers. Again provide initially northen defence and early warning in the north. akin to what was provided by the units in Germany during the Cold war.
Domestic Ops??? Olympic Games, OKA, Gusten Lake, BC etc
ie
Alert was started in 1958 during the cold war and provide early waring from nuclear attack. It was more than likely targeted for destruction.
Peacekeeping started in 1947 with Korea
Pakistan 89-90. Engineers faced danger with live mines and there their disposal.
Rangers. Again provide initially northen defence and early warning in the north. akin to what was provided by the units in Germany during the Cold war.
Domestic Ops??? Olympic Games, OKA, Gusten Lake, BC etc
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I'm glad we're having this debate - sincerely.
Recceguy's post gives us an extremly valuable perspective - insight from somebody who remembers when Centurion was a rank before it became a tank (chuckle - okay - I'm just kidding)
However, it's a reminder that once upon a time things were seen differently
(i.e. before the more relaxed "Beer and Bratwurst" era, Canadian troops in Germany really and truly were positioned there as part of the "trip wire" ...)
And, I'm very much in agreement with Infanteer's comments and Gunner's minority opinion
(I had to sign off yesterday in order to do some errands, and thus fell off the radar ...)
Yes - it would have been much more fair, and caused MUCH less griping, if our Army had been allowed to issue the Golden Jubilee medal to everybody (as they initially tried to do) - however, some non-military whankers probably figured it would cost too much ... and so, we ended up with a brutally flawed distribution plan (i.e. the computer-generated lists included guys were were NES, released, etc. And then, when people started tinkering with the lists ... some serious abuses took place - however, as always, some things happened that weren't fair thanks to a lack of ethos and an overabundance of arrogant bullies)
Looking at the QR&O, and watching the trend in CF medals, it looks like we're getting back on track ...
We've got both Special and General medals, plus the good old undetected crime gong.
So, I'm sticking to my guns - if the purpose of medals is recognising service, in order to differentiate those who've served from those who haven't ... then a Dom Ops bar isn't the end of the world.
And, yes - I've got an axe to grind - I know people who won't even qualify for the Dom Ops bar.
That, combined with the fact that they've never, ever stepped up to the plate ... drives me crazy.
So, even if it's only a medal made from the foil paper from cigarette packages ... it feels good to pin it on when these frauds can only brush lint from their uniforms ...
Recceguy's post gives us an extremly valuable perspective - insight from somebody who remembers when Centurion was a rank before it became a tank (chuckle - okay - I'm just kidding)
However, it's a reminder that once upon a time things were seen differently
(i.e. before the more relaxed "Beer and Bratwurst" era, Canadian troops in Germany really and truly were positioned there as part of the "trip wire" ...)
And, I'm very much in agreement with Infanteer's comments and Gunner's minority opinion
(I had to sign off yesterday in order to do some errands, and thus fell off the radar ...)
Yes - it would have been much more fair, and caused MUCH less griping, if our Army had been allowed to issue the Golden Jubilee medal to everybody (as they initially tried to do) - however, some non-military whankers probably figured it would cost too much ... and so, we ended up with a brutally flawed distribution plan (i.e. the computer-generated lists included guys were were NES, released, etc. And then, when people started tinkering with the lists ... some serious abuses took place - however, as always, some things happened that weren't fair thanks to a lack of ethos and an overabundance of arrogant bullies)
Looking at the QR&O, and watching the trend in CF medals, it looks like we're getting back on track ...
We've got both Special and General medals, plus the good old undetected crime gong.
So, I'm sticking to my guns - if the purpose of medals is recognising service, in order to differentiate those who've served from those who haven't ... then a Dom Ops bar isn't the end of the world.
And, yes - I've got an axe to grind - I know people who won't even qualify for the Dom Ops bar.
That, combined with the fact that they've never, ever stepped up to the plate ... drives me crazy.
So, even if it's only a medal made from the foil paper from cigarette packages ... it feels good to pin it on when these frauds can only brush lint from their uniforms ...
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I've been reading this thread pretty near non stop since it first was started and can honestly say I don't know where I stand. 
.I have precipitated in a few Dom ops in my career as a reservist and would like to see a medal awarded.On the other hand,I don't want to wear a medal that is going to be loathed by everyone and draw unnecessary comments about my military career(ala all the flak I received when I transfered to the regs from the reserves).If one was to be issued,unfortunately,it would be all or none.By this I mean,we couldn't put restrictions on which Dom ops are recognized and what ones are not.This action would splinter the topic more so than what it already is.Either way,I'm not to going to lose sleep over it.
One thing I've noticed that, only one person has mentioned,is that of OP Persistence-the recovery of the Swiss Air flight 111.If you wanted to issue a medal for service out of daily routine,I can say with confidence that this one fits the bill.There are alot of people,mostly reservists,who still bear the scars and are unwilling to talk about them.Both me and my wife served there,(thats where I met my wife,not all bad
)and some of our shared experiences would make your blood run cold.When you take people,who the night before were out being a regular civy,getting ready for school,or the start of the training year, throw them into what we only ever saw on the news or in movies, deal with the almost neverending flow of distraught family members and countless recovery actions on the beaches surrounding Peggy's Cove,with no training in this type of action,an abnormal situation,above daily routine exists.
In comparison to the other Dom ops I participated in,If I received a medal for just OP Persistence,I would wear it,and defend it.If the only op I ever participated in was OP Snow Shovel,then I think my feelings on this topic would be very different.
My 2 cents
.I have precipitated in a few Dom ops in my career as a reservist and would like to see a medal awarded.On the other hand,I don't want to wear a medal that is going to be loathed by everyone and draw unnecessary comments about my military career(ala all the flak I received when I transfered to the regs from the reserves).If one was to be issued,unfortunately,it would be all or none.By this I mean,we couldn't put restrictions on which Dom ops are recognized and what ones are not.This action would splinter the topic more so than what it already is.Either way,I'm not to going to lose sleep over it.One thing I've noticed that, only one person has mentioned,is that of OP Persistence-the recovery of the Swiss Air flight 111.If you wanted to issue a medal for service out of daily routine,I can say with confidence that this one fits the bill.There are alot of people,mostly reservists,who still bear the scars and are unwilling to talk about them.Both me and my wife served there,(thats where I met my wife,not all bad
)and some of our shared experiences would make your blood run cold.When you take people,who the night before were out being a regular civy,getting ready for school,or the start of the training year, throw them into what we only ever saw on the news or in movies, deal with the almost neverending flow of distraught family members and countless recovery actions on the beaches surrounding Peggy's Cove,with no training in this type of action,an abnormal situation,above daily routine exists.In comparison to the other Dom ops I participated in,If I received a medal for just OP Persistence,I would wear it,and defend it.If the only op I ever participated in was OP Snow Shovel,then I think my feelings on this topic would be very different.
My 2 cents
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I just wanted to add as being part of OP Persistence-the recovery of the Swiss Air flight 111. I was onboard HMCS Halifax for those gruesome 31 days and I still remember what I saw and the smell of death. I also think about what the divers from FDU (both Atl & Pac) had to ordeal initially as well as other people involved. These were acts above and beyond the call of duty. So I am in favour of this medal. It has more meaning to me than swiss army knife and certificate. No disrespect intended. Also can anyone tell me if there is any update news on this? 
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I read a copy of the proposed bill a couple of days ago. The covering letter stated that the official CF position is against the bill. To me, if people perform individual acts deserving of honours and awards, we should recognize them accordingly: we already have the system for that. But to give an award for a domestic operation is focusing on the wrong side of our business: we are helping other people to do their primary job. It is not our primary job. I go back to one of my original points: why should we get a medal for what firefighters, EMS and police do on a regular basis with no medals at all (and, in the case of volunteer firefighters, nowhere near the pay and benefits and support we get, either...) Picking up shattered human remains was no doubt sickening and disturbing for the soldiers on OP PERSISTENCE, but the emergency services folks do that every week all across Canada. I would feel uncomfortable if we were to stand beside them with a medal for helping them do their jobs.
Cheers.
Cheers.
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I truly respect the fact that you feel so strongly about this topic.
Equally, so do I. Unfortunately, we're on diverging approaches ...
(i.e. I got shot at on a Dom Op, and you've "been on the other side" with vol firefighters)
Notwithstanding the irrefutable point that honours and awards, in general, should be for "service above and beyond the call of duty" ... I'm afraid that I still believe it's okay to recognise service if "... It is not our primary job ...".
However, I'm glad it's out of our hands now, since I'd lose this argument
("Paper, scissors, rank" ... CHUCKLE!!!!!!!) >
Now that it's out of our hands, all we can do is sit back and wait for the roulette ball to fall on either red or black ... and then obey whatever orders that follow (... with a minimum of whinging ...)
Equally, so do I. Unfortunately, we're on diverging approaches ...
(i.e. I got shot at on a Dom Op, and you've "been on the other side" with vol firefighters)
pbi said:
Notwithstanding the irrefutable point that honours and awards, in general, should be for "service above and beyond the call of duty" ... I'm afraid that I still believe it's okay to recognise service if "... It is not our primary job ...".
However, I'm glad it's out of our hands now, since I'd lose this argument
("Paper, scissors, rank" ... CHUCKLE!!!!!!!)
> Now that it's out of our hands, all we can do is sit back and wait for the roulette ball to fall on either red or black ... and then obey whatever orders that follow (... with a minimum of whinging ...)
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In Canada, would it be accurate to say that those who can recommend a decoration, do so when it is deserved? I am reluctant to bring this up, but shortly after 3VP returned from Afghan, there was ALOT of talk of jealousy and foreign awards being issued to people who weren't even in the ****.........Heard some info first hand, but.........
I wasn't there, but the military is second only to the fire service when it comes to the Rumour Mill........3rd place is the Grannies Knitting club..........
Pot stirred.......... :-X
I wasn't there, but the military is second only to the fire service when it comes to the Rumour Mill........3rd place is the Grannies Knitting club..........
Pot stirred.......... :-X
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One other point about adding a Dom Ops bar to the SSM that no one has brought up yet: You need 6 months cumulative service to be eligible. Guys that went up to Alert to do GD's for the summer aren't eligible for the SSM until they spend a few more months up there. I knew a guy who had spent 5 and a half months cumulative in Germany, and kept volunteering to go help close down Lahr so he could get the medal. (He never got it.)
If the same concept is kept for the Domestic Operations Medal, then the guy who goes to shovel snow in Toronto for a week won't be eligible for a medal (unless he already has 173 days accrued on other domestic operations).
If the same concept is kept for the Domestic Operations Medal, then the guy who goes to shovel snow in Toronto for a week won't be eligible for a medal (unless he already has 173 days accrued on other domestic operations).
Yes I do, Im not proud of most of them. : ie the 3rd and 5th
[edit]Hell, now that I think of it, add the 2nd 6th 7th one to that list as well.[/edit]
[2nd edit] You what, after thinking about it, if im not happy with over 2/3rd's of my medals, why the hell do I have them in my avatar?, looks like its time for a new avatar...[/edit]
ie the 3rd and 5th [edit]Hell, now that I think of it, add the 2nd 6th 7th one to that list as well.[/edit]
[2nd edit] You what, after thinking about it, if im not happy with over 2/3rd's of my medals, why the hell do I have them in my avatar?, looks like its time for a new avatar...[/edit]
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