Medal for Domestic Operation?

[Infanteer]

Infanteer - I know a bunch who binned the CPSM...

I think you'll soon see me in that club - maybe I'll sell it on Ebay or something.

I just want to know if someone is going to pull a "out of uniform" stunt if I'm missing it on my DEU's.

 

[HollywoodHitman]

Your medals and ribbons are a part of your dress. Proper time, proper place in the proper order of dress. I think the more people talk negatively about various medals, issued for a variety of reasons, whether in their own mind or others, does a disservice.

People guage in their own mind a sense of accomplishment. Example, some of our soldiers awarded Bronze Stars for their efforts should be unashamed to wear them just because the same medal awarded to others may have been under questionable circumstances. The person who wears it knows in their mind what it took to get there. Good on you. A gimme medal like the CPSM is at least another recognition of service. Better than not being recognised at all. We should be careful not to issue too many gimme's, but at the same time, there is a distinct purpose to the theory behind decorating someone. Acheivement and recognition. Each of us have our own definition. Checks and balances.

I do enjoy the well thought out and eloquent posts in this forum. I also like ones where someone asks if the US NAVY SEALS are PART OF THE US NAVY.

Brilliant.

 

[Infanteer]

Your medals and ribbons are a part of your dress. Proper time, proper place in the proper order of dress. I think the more people talk negatively about various medals, issued for a variety of reasons, whether in their own mind or others, does a disservice.

Is it a disseverice?  I think "medal culture" is a reasonable topic.  Would it be a "disservice" if were like the Americans and sent soldiers out of Basic with four ribbons on their chest (really, they can have this many).

We should be careful not to issue too many gimme's, but at the same time, there is a distinct purpose to the theory behind decorating someone. Acheivement and recognition. Each of us have our own definition. Checks and balances.

Yup - and some of us here are saying that this is a case of a "gimme" that should not be given out.

 

[bossi]

For crying out loud ...
I just looked up the QR&O, and it dawned on me ...
People wear commemorative medals such as the 125 or Golden Jubilee ... essentially "freebies".
Certainly a "Dom Op" bar has some merit, by comparison ...?

I think you'll soon see me in that club - maybe I'll sell it on Ebay or something.

I just want to know if someone is going to pull a "out of uniform" stunt if I'm missing it on my DEU's.

Here's the QR&O - http://admfincs.mil.ca/admfincs/subjects/qr_o/vol1/ch018_e.asp#18.01

If you choose to not wear an honour or decoration that you were awarded, in effect you are electing for forfeit it.
Do you want to be lumped in with the group of people detailed below:

18.27 - FORFEITURE AND RESTORATION OF DECORATIONS AND MEDALS OTHER THAN THOSE AWARDED FOR GALLANTRY AND WAR MEDALS  18.27 - DÉCHÉANCE ET REMISE DE DÉCORATIONS ET MÉDAILLES AUTRES QUE CELLES QUI SONT ACCORDÉES POUR ACTES DE BRAVOURE ET MÉDAILLES DE GUERRE

(1) An officer or non-commissioned member shall forfeit any decoration or medal awarded to the member or to which the member may be entitled for long service, good conduct, efficiency to meritorious service other than gallantry, where the members is:

(1) Un officier ou militaire du rang est déchu de toute décoration ou médaille qui lui a été accordée ou à laquelle il peut avoir droit pour cause de longs services, de bonne conduite, de compétence ou de service méritoire autre que la bravoure dans l'un ou l'autre des cas suivants :

(a) sentenced to death;
  a) il est condamné à mort;

(b) sentenced to dismissal with disgrace from Her Majesty's service;
  b) il est condamné à la destitution ignominieuse du service de Sa Majesté;

(c) sentenced to dismissal from Her Majesty's service; or
  c) il est condamné à la destitution du service de Sa Majesté;

(d) released for misconduct;
  d) il est libéré pour cause d'inconduite.

(2) An officer or non-commissioned member may be ordered by the Minister to forfeit any decoration or medal awarded to the member or to which the member may be entitled for long service, good conduct, efficiency or meritorious service other than gallantry, where the member is:
 (2) Un officier ou militaire du rang peut recevoir du ministre l'ordre d'abandonner toute décoration ou médaille qui lui a été accordée ou à laquelle il peut avoir droit pour cause de longs services, de bonne conduite, de compétence ou de service méritoire autre que la bravoure dans l'un ou l'autre des cas suivants :

(a) convicted by a civil authority of any serious offence; or
  a) il est reconnu coupable par une autorité civile d'une infraction grave;

(b) convicted of an offence of treason, sedition, mutiny, cowardice, desertion or a disgraceful offence against morality;
  b) il est reconnu coupable d'une infraction de trahison, sédition, mutinerie, lâcheté, désertion ou d'une infraction grave contre la morale.

 

[HollywoodHitman]

Infanteer.....

I'm not disagreeing on either point. I'm simply saying that we need to be careful with how they're issued and conceived. I don't personally care. Someone wants to give me tin, great, they don't, great........Starbucks coffee still costs me 5 bucks whether I have tin or not.

You're entitled to pitch your CPSM or Jubilee, or not. Some people are proud of their tin because it represents something they've accomplished that we may not be aware of. Who knows. I'm gonna hop on the bandwagon with Bossi and say if they're gonna do this, dont create a new medal, just a bar of some kind. I can't see it happening anyway. I don't get medals when I go into fires or to car accidents.......But some people do. Good on 'em. Didn't cost me a thing.

 

[Infanteer]

For crying out loud ...
I just looked up the QR&O, and it dawned on me ...
People wear commemorative medals such as the 125 or Golden Jubilee ... essentially "freebies".
Certainly a "Dom Op" bar has some merit, by comparison ...?

I felt the 125 and the Jubliee were stupid as well, and I voiced that here.

At least the "Dom Op" bar (and your proposal of a single bar is certainly better then the proposed medal) requires one to go out and do something for it - however, I just don't believe shovelling snow or wandering around K-country is enough to warrant it.  You've brought up some cases of armed intervention and I think, like the North-West Rebellion, there is precedent for awarding this if the action is significant enough.

As for the QR&O you listed, I'm reading it and I don't see how it would apply to a soldier who doesn't wear the medals he is awarded - it looks to be a regulation for revoking shitheads of their awards if they commit a crime.

We awarded soldiers with "Contingent Commanders coins" on my ROTO and I don't see them having to mount and wear those on their uniforms.

I'm not disagreeing on either point. I'm simply saying that we need to be careful with how they're issued and conceived. I don't personally care. Someone wants to give me tin, great, they don't, great........Starbucks coffee still costs me 5 bucks whether I have tin or not.

You're right - medals are what one makes of them in the end.

You're entitled to pitch your CPSM or Jubilee, or not.

This is what I'd like to know, if I'm able to do so or if I'll get in trouble for not having my DEU's match the "Entitlement" section of my Pers File.

Personally, I liked what I once read David Hackworth say - you could pitch every medal and award and just hand-out CIB's and guys would be happy.

 

[SHELLDRAKE!!]

 I suppose if this medal is awarded, it will simply go as another "gimmee" medal along with jubilee cpsm and 125 that we will refer to the next time a new "gimee" medal is thought up.Maybee what we need is a pre emptive petition to the government stating what members of the CF really think of these "token" medals.

 

[bossi]

As for the QR&O you listed, I'm reading it and I don't see how it would apply to a soldier who doesn't wear the medals he is awarded - it looks to be a regulation for revoking shitheads of their awards if they commit a crime.

We awarded soldiers with "Contingent Commanders coins" on my ROTO and I don't see them having to mount and wear those on their uniforms.

The parallel I'm attempting to draw may be obtuse, however ... your proposed future career requires you to look at more than one angle ...

Okay, I'll take another run at it:
Three soldiers are on parade.   All three soldiers were awarded the same medal.
Soldier #1 wears his medal as awarded IAW with QR&O.
Soldier #2 forfeits his medal because he did something bad, and therefore is not wearing his medal.
Soldier #3 chooses to not wear his medal, awarded to him on behalf of Her Majesty.

To the naked eye, what is the difference between Soldiers #2 and #3?   (the answer is none)
And so, my earlier point was:   What do you want to look like?
A soldier who forfeited his medal for doing something bad, or a soldier who did his duty ... ?

 

[Infanteer]

To the naked eye, what is the difference between Soldiers #1 and #2?   (the answer is none)

Lol - did you mean "the difference between #2 and #3?

And so, my earlier point was:   What do you want to look like?
A soldier who forfeited his medal for doing something bad, or a soldier who did his duty ... ?

I've got the "Former Yugo" one sitting there to let everybody know my limited CV.

I was more aiming for the following scenarion:

Soldier 1 is awarded the gimmee
Soldier 2 is not awarded the gimmee (say, the Golden Jubilee)

Soldier one treasures it and frames it instead of wearing it on his uniform - they both look the same on the parade square but, in the end, appearence is irrelevent because they are both solid performers and have a rack of medals from overseas deployments on their chests....



I have no stake in this (I'm not eligible for the award as the criteria on the Bill states), I'm only pressing this because I'm curious to know if not wearing an award is manifestly illegal (according to the QR&O) or is deeply frowned upon by RSMs or CO's - which KevinB's statement seems to indicate is not the case.

 

[bossi]

Yup - I corrected my post.

So, with respect to the debate of recognising one type of service and not recognising another type of service ... I think there are some principles to be digested:  Respect, Equitability, and Credibility.

Certainly, I'd venture my personal opinion that the Army's original decision to award the Golden Jubilee to "everybody" (i.e. similar to Britain) made much more sense than the lottery than transpired ...

Yes - Credibility is certainly the sore point in this discussion.

(3) The principles to be observed in instituting honours are as follows:
  (3) Les principes à observer lors de l'institution de nouvelles distinctions honorifiques sont :

(a) compatibility - any specific proposal must be compatible with the existing system of Canadian decorations;
  a) la compatibilité - toute proposition doit être compatible avec le système actuel des décorations canadiennes;

(b) duplication - no new military decoration should duplicate the existing national decorations;
  b) le double emploi - aucune nouvelle décoration militaire ne doit faire double emploi avec une décoration nationale existante;

(c) eligibility - no new military decoration should adversely affect the eligibility of military personnel for existing national decorations;
  c) l'admissibilité - aucune nouvelle décoration militaire ne doit nuire à l'admissibilité des militaires aux décorations nationales existantes;

(d) respect - fundamental to the concept of honours is that they carry prestige and that their raison d'être is to recognize an accomplishment commanding the respect of members of the military, the general public and the person honoured;
  d) le respect - une distinction honorifique doit nécessairement conférer du prestige à la personne qui en est récipiendaire et la raison d'être d'une décoration est en effet d'honorer une action méritant le respect des militaires et du grand public ainsi que la personne ayant effectué cette action;

(e) equitability - non-recognition of this factor could produce the negative effect of dissatisfaction rather than improve morale since, if an honour is bestowed for duty under certain circumstances, similar kinds of duty and circumstances should also be rewarded; and
  e) l'équité - si l'on ne respecte pas ce critère, on risque d'engendrer l'insatisfaction plutôt que d'améliorer le moral parce que si l'on décerne une distinction pour l'accomplissement d'une tâche en certaines circonstances, il faudrait aussi honorer ceux qui accomplissent des tâches similaires dans des circonstances similaires;

(f) credibility - this factor is related to respect since, to be credible, an honour must represent a worthy endeavour and it must not represent routine duty.
  f) la crédibilité - ce critère est lié au respect parce que pour être reconnue, une distinction doit récompenser une action méritoire et non l'accomplissement des tâches ordinaires.

(4) Any specific proposal will require examination by the Honours Policy Committee for the purpose of advising the Prime Minister on the matter.
  (4) Toute proposition particulière devra être examinée par le Comité de la politique en matière d'ordres et de décorations qui est chargé de conseiller le Premier ministre à cet égard.

 

[Infanteer]

Sounds good to me Mark.  I guess all of us are bitter with the DOM OPS (as proposed in the bill) medal as it seems to be awarded for matters which most of us would consider to "represent routine duty", thus, as you pointed out, contravening credibility.

Most of the other Gimmee's contravene "equitability", so we can justify trashing how they were distributed.

My earlier qualm with the CPSM is that it contravenes "duplication" in that we are awarding an action that has already received recognition with an existing national decoration (in my case, the NATO medal - its not a "national" medal, but it is recognized in the awards system).

Perhaps we should email that list to Ms. McDonough?

 

[Gunner]

I'm going to provide the minority opinion.  I think the awarding of the Special Service Medal with a "Service in Canada Bar" or something along those lines would be suitable for awarding for most of the larger domestic operations in Canada.  Certainly the criteria for the award would need some clarification in terms of which domestic operations would be approved for eligibility purposes.  Aid to the Civil Power and aid to a lawful authority are certainly given in my books.  It becomes murky when you get into provision of services (ie supporting the RCMP based on a request - which in essence Op GRIZZLY was).

Unfortunately the military (for the most part) turned the Canada 125 and Queens Golden Jubilee Medal into "gimme medals" for a select few.  However, on the civilian side the medals were awarded to some outstanding Canadians for their work in academia, business, or the community and you should be careful to view it as a gimme medal for them.

I guess my experience in the 80s and early 90s was that we (the army) did not recognize our members as well as we should have.  If we can give a SSM for soldiers serving in Germany and for Canadian Rangers, I think we can give it for suitable domestic operations.

   

 

[Infanteer]

I'm going to provide the minority opinion.   I think the awarding of the Special Service Medal with a "Service in Canada Bar" or something along those lines would be suitable for awarding for most of the larger domestic operations in Canada.   Certainly the criteria for the award would need some clarification in terms of which domestic operations would be approved for eligibility purposes.   Aid to the Civil Power and aid to a lawful authority are certainly given in my books.   It becomes murky when you get into provision of services (ie supporting the RCMP based on a request - which in essence Op GRIZZLY was).

I think if it meets the requirements that Mark posted, then I wouldn't have a problem with it.  The examples you stated (ACP) are genuinely military options.  My fear is that we "Americanize" (not a hack, I just don't like the medal for everything approach) the system by abrogating the principle of a medal not representing routine duty.

 

[Gunner]

the system by abrogating the principle of a medal not representing routine duty.

All depends on your definition.  You could argue that going to war, peace enforcement, peacekeeping, peace support operations, etc, etc are all part of being a soldier...

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

......a scroll is always nice.

 

[Gunner]

......a scroll is always nice.

Great...Along with the other 1000 plaques, scrolls, certificates and general thanks for coming out awards you accumulate over 20 years?  How about a medal that condenses all your dom ops experience in one award?

Cheers!

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I don't know, I look at police/fire personall in thier "dress" uniforms and I don't see medals for things like that.......just seems "cheap" to me. Sorry.

 

[Gunner]

I don't know, I look at police/fire personall in thier "dress" uniforms and I don't see medals for things like that.......just seems "cheap" to me. Sorry.

I guess police and firemen are "doing thier jobs".  I guess that goes back to my question of what is expected from a soldier.  Mind you, medals are more of a military thing anyway aren't they? 

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Very true, but from this link below, this one caught my eye,  Corrections Exemplary Service Medal ....16 years doing this and I didn't even know we had one. Guess one would have to do good to get it, eh?

...either that or none of us are "exemplary"
http://www.gg.ca/honours/ordprec_e.asp

 

[Gunner]

Just another 4 years to go!