Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels (MCDVs)

[Maxman1]

I would be fine with that on a proper corvette. But not necessary on an OPV. Need that FC radar to properly operate a 57mm, so you would have to pull CMS and the FC from the CPF as well.

Then pull those off, too. Would just be scrapped otherwise.

 

[Czech_pivo]

whats wrong with a slightly bigger and faster Kingston?

Why do we need a longer, faster ship armed with a pair of 50 cals?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Let us hopefully not have our own FCS fiasco asking one vessel to do to many conflicting tasks.

 

[suffolkowner]

Why do we need a longer, faster ship armed with a pair of 50 cals?

that was the original ask on a MCDV replacement was it not? A little faster and better seakeeping while remaining economical to run

 

[deepblue202]

What do you guys think of the sigma class Corvette. Sigma Combatants | Damen

 

[Swampbuggy]

In a Canadian sense light means a 25mm to 40mm and 50 cal.positions.

Light through the rumour mill could mean anything.

If that was the range, I’d hope they’d go with the 30mm Lionfish from the CSC. I’d also like to see AOPS upgraded to that as well. The 25mm is hampered by limited selection in munitions. No air burst and lower elevation may make a difference with regards to drones, no matter how uncommon that situation might be. I would like to see whatever the CMMC or OPV turns out to be to have at least the same radar set as the AOR. Is it possible to cue the 30mm from a Sea Giraffe?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

There is nothing wrong with the displacement of the MCDV's. They just weren't built for speed, but rather for very low speed maneuverability and to pull heavy loads (sweeps). Build a sleeker vessel with a pair of VP screws on fixed shafts of the same displacement with a hull developed for speed and on the same displacement, you will get a much more seaworthy vessel capable of around 26 Kts (but your bridge wont be so high above the water ).

 

[Underway]

that was the original ask on a MCDV replacement was it not? A little faster and better seakeeping while remaining economical to run

25 knots (almost double the speed)
Good range
Better sea keeping
Max 40 pers crew with extra bunks (10ish?)

If you were to pull kit off of the CPF, I would look at the AMB radar (not the Smart S), the one Fire Control radar, 56mm (with different magazine feed system to account for the smaller ship) and two RWS for the 50 cals though that might be more trouble then it's worth. And of course the nav system and enough CMS guts.

I would consider RAM instead of a VLS Two 30mm Lionfish for CSC commonality.



Payload deck for TRAPS, other containerized systems, CMS backbone for easy integration of weapon systems,

Thses ships are going to be tangling with USV suicide boats in their future. They need the speed, maneuverability and guns to break away and cover fire. And same for UAV attacks.

Now can that be done with 40 pers crew?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Now can that be done with 40 pers crew?

I think it could, but you'd have to be in a 1 in 2 watch system for the whole duration of you being in a risk area. You would also have to have higher command that understands and remembers that small vessels like that are not meant for long deployments. They must have a base of operation to which they return on a fairly frequent and regular basis say every week or two weeks at most,

 

[KevinB]

Would the Heritage class cutters for the USCG be too big for a RCN OPV?

• Number Planned: 25
• Length: 360 feet
• Beam: 54 feet
• Draft: 17 feet
• Maximum Speed: 22.5 knots
• Range: 10,200 nautical miles at 14 knots
• Endurance: 60 days

Offshore Patrol Cutter (Heritage-class)

Austal USA was awarded a contract for the detailed design and construction of up to 11 Offshore Patrol Cutters (OPC) for the United States Coast Guard (USCG) in July 2022. The first vessel has been contracted by the US Coast Guard, with options for a further 10 vessels. Construction is expected...

www.austal.com

 

[Underway]

25 knots (almost double the speed)
Good range
Better sea keeping
Max 40 pers crew with extra bunks (10ish?)

If you were to pull kit off of the CPF, I would look at the AMB radar (not the Smart S), the one Fire Control radar, 56mm (with different magazine feed system to account for the smaller ship) and two RWS for the 50 cals though that might be more trouble then it's worth. And of course the nav system and enough CMS guts.

I would consider RAM instead of a VLS Two 30mm Lionfish for CSC commonality.



Payload deck for TRAPS, other containerized systems, CMS backbone for easy integration of weapon systems,

Thses ships are going to be tangling with USV suicide boats in their future. They need the speed, maneuverability and guns to break away and cover fire. And same for UAV attacks.

Now can that be done with 40 pers crew?

I apologize for the horrible editing/spelling on this post. It was a pre-coffee on phone type up job and it shows. And its past fixing now that others have posted. I'll try to do better in the future.

 

[Underway]

Would the Heritage class cutters for the USCG be too big for a RCN OPV?

Heritage Class is the same size as a Halifax Class pretty much. So a frigate basically.

One thing that I like for an OPV is stabilization fins. The AOPS has proven (amoung other ships of course) that stabilization fins work wonders, both for crew comfort and the side effect will be to improve fire control solutions from a small ship.

 

[Rainbow1910]

A corvette indicates in some level a combatant of some type. A hull optimized for taking modules to do various missions like ASW would make sense. Not as cheap and certainly more grumpy then an MCDV.

If that looks like an OPV I'm fine with it.

If they can actually control scope and role creep, I'd be supportive of spending some more money to get more combat capability out of an OPV. I have my doubts that is possible as the allure of the good idea fairy is hard to resist.

What would folks here think the dividing line between corvette and OPV is with regards to weapons?

I personally think that it's probably when the OPV can sink another OPV of its same tonnage and provide some protection against same for an escorted ship.

I personally view an OPV's armament as a single 20mm/30mm cannon alongside a number of heavy/light machine guns. An OPV exists generally to do non-combatant HADR, sovereignty patrols, drug interdiction, etc roles which do not require much of an armament. You may see larger guns but that is typically all.

I view a corvette as something build around the roles of a combatant, IE to fight other surface vessels, aircraft, submarines, etc. Corvettes have larger main guns, a far more robust assortment of secondary/tertiary gun systems and offensive/defensive missile batteries. You'll also see sensor suites far more suited to prosecuting threats instead of just surveillance alongside various decoy/countermeasure systems.

Corvette is a wide category but largely now is split by era. Older Cold War corvettes were a rag tag mix of random sizes although typically small and coastal vessels of various types. Modern corvettes tend to take over the niche size/capability niche present on the last few generations of frigates, as they bulk upwards generally in size.

Would the Heritage class cutters for the USCG be too big for a RCN OPV?

• Number Planned: 25
• Length: 360 feet
• Beam: 54 feet
• Draft: 17 feet
• Maximum Speed: 22.5 knots
• Range: 10,200 nautical miles at 14 knots
• Endurance: 60 days

Offshore Patrol Cutter (Heritage-class)

Austal USA was awarded a contract for the detailed design and construction of up to 11 Offshore Patrol Cutters (OPC) for the United States Coast Guard (USCG) in July 2022. The first vessel has been contracted by the US Coast Guard, with options for a further 10 vessels. Construction is expected...

www.austal.com

The crew requirements of 126 people entirely disqualifies the Heritage class, that is over half of the complement set for the River class at this point.

 

[Edward Campbell]

There were a number of socio-economic and political "drivers" behind the MCDV project (I was 'in the room,' albeit in the back row, for some of the discussions) but there was also a military driver: economy of effort.

It was recognized that the brand new Halifax class frigates were going to be very expensive for some tasks, like fisheries patrol, and that a "coastal" vessel (think what the WW2 flower class corvettes were originally meant to be) might be very useful and, like the "flowers" could be built, cheaply, in some Canadian yards that hadn't been able to participate in the CPF programme.

Shades of 1939.

 

[JMCanada]

IMHO the MCDVs should be replaced by ...
6 x OPV, of about 2,000 tons, 40 crew and max. a 40mm gun, able to carry TRAPS and other payloads. Hangar for UAVs only,
cheap to maintain on to operate
6 x Corvettes/light frigates, in the range of 3,000-5,000 tons, 90-110 crew, 16-32 VLS, something in line with the Type 31 or the (to be selected) Australian 2nd Tier combatant, with good range and autonomy for "moderate intensity" scenarios. Cheaper to maintain and operate than the River-class but still capable to provide some coverage to other vessels or be added to a Task Group.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Now that we have apparently dropped the SeaCeptor from the River class, I wonder what would go into those 6 VLS cells, which I believe are ExLS.

The way things are going for the RCN dreamers lately?
Nothing less than full strike length VLS and additional space for up to 144 Trudent. (Trudeau’s Tridents).

 

[Cloud Cover]

There were a number of socio-economic and political "drivers" behind the MCDV project (I was 'in the room,' albeit in the back row, for some of the discussions) but there was also a military driver: economy of effort.

It was recognized that the brand new Halifax class frigates were going to be very expensive for some tasks, like fisheries patrol, and that a "coastal" vessel (think what the WW2 flower class corvettes were originally meant to be) might be very useful and, like the "flowers" could be built, cheaply, in some Canadian yards that hadn't been able to participate in the CPF programme.

Shades of 1939.

I am still amazed that Chrétien did not crush that program.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I am still amazed that Chrétien did not crush that program.

It had a quite loud political cheering section in Atlantic Canada.

 

[GK .Dundas]

Sometimes, I suspect that the only reason we still have a reserve force and a Heritage Ministry. Is that his riding has both a new armoury and the Canoe museum has a new building.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

It's a little more complicated than that. At that point, the Gate vessels and the PB's (the old minesweepers turned training vessels) were over 44 years old and falling apart. The Orca's were not even conceived of yet and bridge trainers to teach naval cadets didn't exist. Cancelling the MCDV's would have dealt a huge blow not only to the reserves (potential for 24 cities bitchin against the government) but also to the capacity of the reg force to train and develop MARS officers. It would have been too much of a step to go from basic (very basic) navigation training on the YAG's (one gyro compass and one fisherman radar - for safety only in emergency and not used for training anyway) to the bridge of a HALIFAX class ship expected to be operational. The Navy managed to convey the crippling blow it would have been.