Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels (MCDVs)

[Czech_pivo]

I am of the mind to tell Irving shipbuilding that if they cannot supply this vessel in a timely period of time that they allow another ship yard to proceed as we will have almost no Halifax frigates still floating by the time they have only a few of the type 26 River class destroyers.

The DND (through the Min of D) needs to be willing to move forward the timelines in order for this to happen.

 

[Czech_pivo]

There is a zero percent chance Canada can walk back from the 15 CSC without a major incident down here.

The Corvette/Frigate Combatant is simply another needed system in today’s world to be a relative participant.

I'm tired of always hearing what we 'can't' do - The worm needs to turn and we need to start saying that we can do it.

 

[YZT580]

I am of the mind to tell Irving shipbuilding that if they cannot supply this vessel in a timely period of time that they allow another ship yard to proceed as we will have almost no Halifax frigates still floating by the time they have only a few of the type 26 River class destroyers.

And they would reply in the affirmative; we can do it. Serious penalties (like loss of status) would have to be written in because once they said yes it would be too late to pursue an alternative.

 

[KevinB]

Maybe consideration should be given to small boats for the Cadets to train on in the Great Lakes/St Lawrence River up to Quebec City. A very substantial % of the population lives between Thunder Bay and Quebec City within a 45mins drive to Great Lakes/St Lawrence. Also would be great from a marketing angle as more people can actually see the RCN in action and actually doing something (not that they are not, just that the vast majority of CDN's have never seen seen a CDN warship before).

To me, it makes much more sense to have vessels for the RCN Reserves to train on before any idea about Cadets gets floated.

Given the security requirements for Fire Control systems and comms systems, not to mention the whole child soldier thing, Cadets on a Warship probably isn’t the great thing to be concerned about.

 

[Czech_pivo]

To me, it makes much more sense to have vessels for the RCN Reserves to train on before any idea about Cadets gets floated.

Given the security requirements for Fire Control systems and comms systems, not to mention the whole child soldier thing, Cadets on a Warship probably isn’t the great thing to be concerned about.

Agreed - but have some 50ft's on the Great Lakes for training purposes, that could be used from time to time for illegal migrant crossing, illegal fishing, drug running, etc, could be useful.

 

[NavyShooter]

Go back to the company out west that made the Orcas, put in an order for a few more. Continuous production cycle, one a year for the next X years....then they can move some into the Great Lakes, and maybe push some out to NRDs that could use and support them - Charlottetown, etc.

Once you've built up a few more Orcas, you can then look at retiring the oldest/worst condition ones and sustain a 'fleet' of them.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Go back to the company out west that made the Orcas, put in an order for a few more. Continuous production cycle, one a year for the next X years....then they can move some into the Great Lakes, and maybe push some out to NRDs that could use and support them - Charlottetown, etc.

Once you've built up a few more Orcas, you can then look at retiring the oldest/worst condition ones and sustain a 'fleet' of them.

And I'm sure being on one of them in a storm on Lake Superior would more than equal whatever conditions they are used to in the inner islands of BC.....

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I think you're mistaking Kingston Class for Orcas.

Nope, it was in addition to the Orca's

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Perhaps once of twice at least out east and day sailing is not the same as crewing a Kingston Class. Perhaps you should be lamenting the impending loss of Oriole which did crew actual cadets.

I am of the opinion that you should have a larger Steel hulled Brig capable of ocean travel for a training vessel, something that can also function as an ambassador for Canada as well.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

And I'm sure being on one of them in a storm on Lake Superior would more than equal whatever conditions they are used to in the inner islands of BC.....

As I recall they are weather restricted as changes to the design to accommodate training space. Perhaps an improved design that includes the best features.

My guess for the MCDV, is that they will have a long life after CAF service. I would not be surprised to see some go to Ukraine, West Africa or the Philippines. If sold into the civilian market, likley turned into yachts or research vessels.

 

[Stoker]

To me, it makes much more sense to have vessels for the RCN Reserves to train on before any idea about Cadets gets floated.

Given the security requirements for Fire Control systems and comms systems, not to mention the whole child soldier thing, Cadets on a Warship probably isn’t the great thing to be concerned about.

RCN reserves have full time billets and part time opportunities to train on all AOPS, Kingston and Halifax class. No requirement for another class of training vessels at the NRD. As stated cadets certainly don't train on the Kingston Class out east and other than a handful of day sails they don't do it that much out west. Its a pretty much a moot point as there is only one sailing Kingston Class out west with two relocating to the East Coast very soon.

 

[Stoker]

I am of the opinion that you should have a larger Steel hulled Brig capable of ocean travel for a training vessel, something that can also function as an ambassador for Canada as well.

It appears that Orioles days are numbered, certainly no room for anything else like that. It simply doesn't represent todays RCN.

 

[Stoker]

As I recall they are weather restricted as changes to the design to accommodate training space. Perhaps an improved design that includes the best features.

My guess for the MCDV, is that they will have a long life after CAF service. I would not be surprised to see some go to Ukraine, West Africa or the Philippines. If sold into the civilian market, likley turned into yachts or research vessels.

Then you'll be wrong, the ships after their structural integrity certifications run out will be tied up and scrapped at some point. The ships tied up will not be maintained.

 

[Cloud Cover]

It says right in the transition plan that some of the ships will be offered to the naval forces of other countries, where if taken on they could fix them up and maybe do all the things we have said couldn’t be done with them. Or do nothing and just use them as is. Example Dominican Republic, Haiti, etc could potentially take them and use them as for littoral duties. Or Ukraine could take the ships and completely overhaul them. It will obviously be up to them and not Canada to re-certify.

Main point though - once they are decommissioned from the RCN, who really cares what their next life (if any) will be.

 

[DBNSG]

Agreed - but have some 50ft's on the Great Lakes for training purposes, that could be used from time to time for illegal migrant crossing, illegal fishing, drug running, etc, could be useful.

I think the Coast Guard has programs that incorporate young sailors to do just those jobs. Throw on a RCN reservist to man any weapons that would carry and POOF, interest in the Navy by osmosis.

 

[Cloud Cover]

I think the Coast Guard has programs that incorporate young sailors to do just those jobs. Throw on a RCN reservist to man any weapons that would carry and POOF, interest in the Navy by osmosis.

Why do I feel like this would end up like MPs hunting raccoons. Or “RCN reservist accidentally sinks Coast Guard rubber boat with ND. US Coast Guard rescues crew including 14 year old day sailor. Mother very upset”

 

[dapaterson]

Main point though - once they are decommissioned from the RCN, who really cares what their next life (if any) will be.

Depending on comms, sensors and weapons, ITAR and US technology transfer regulations may enter the discussions. So lots of folks may care.

 

[DBNSG]

Why do I feel like this would end up like MPs hunting raccoons. Or “RCN reservist accidentally sinks Coast Guard rubber boat with ND. US Coast Guard rescues crew including 14 year old day sailor. Mother very upset”

Mother very upset but glad that Johnny finally learned how to swim

 

[Stoker]

It says right in the transition plan that some of the ships will be offered to the naval forces of other countries, where if taken on they could fix them up and maybe do all the things we have said couldn’t be done with them. Or do nothing and just use them as is. Example Dominican Republic, Haiti, etc could potentially take them and use them as for littoral duties. Or Ukraine could take the ships and completely overhaul them. It will obviously be up to them and not Canada to re-certify.

Main point though - once they are decommissioned from the RCN, who really cares what their next life (if any) will be.

The reason why we have ships tied up right now because they don't meet SOLAS, thus the need to relocate two ships from the west coast to the east for NATO obligation's. These ships are additionally not warm weather platforms and yes we took them to West Africa however that came with all sorts of issues and I have first hand knowledge of that. We could repair them after doing major work and use them however no doubt the money saved could be reallocated to the Halifax Class.
Like mentioned before its lot about money and personnel savings and why no more refits are being authorized, that also means that ships that are being tied up will be locked up with no maintenance being done. Once you do that the condition of the ship will deteriorate quickly. In my opinion it would be foolish for any nation to take these on. I suspect this "offer" and I heard about this for about a year right now is the current government good ideas club.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

What the transition plan doesn't state is why we have ships tied up right now because they are unsafe to leave the harbour, thus the need to relocate two ships from the west coast to the east for NATO obligation's. These ships are additionally not warm weather platforms and yes we took them to West Africa however that came with all sorts of issues and I have first hand knowledge of that. We could repair them after doing major structural work and use them however its felt that the money saved could be reallocated to the Halifax Class.
Like mentioned before its lot about money and why no more refits are being authorized, that also means that ships that are being tied up will be locked up with no maintenance being done. Once you do that the condition of the ship will deteriorate quickly.

Noah has just published an update looking at the CMMC and some random thoughts on the project:

The CMMC Update

I REALLY debated skipping this discussion, but I'm the Corvette guy.

noahscornerofrandomstuff.substack.com