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Making Canada Relevant Again- The Economic Super-Thread

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http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/canada-politics/united-states-becoming-less-relevant-canada-194152683.html

Both Prime Minister Stephen Harper and Bank of Canada governor Mark Carney had the same message in two different cities Monday: Canada needs to look west, not south.

In Washington, Harper met with U.S. President Barack Obama, and Mexican President Felipe Calderón in Washington, in a meeting dubbed the Three Amigos Summit.

But as the Canadian Press reported, the three men weren't all that chummy.

Harper flatly warned an influential Washington audience the United States is going to have to start competing with Asia — and paying market rates — for Canadian oil.

"We cannot be, as a country, in a situation where really our one and in many cases only energy partner could say no to our energy products," the Prime Minister stated.

More on link.

As discussed earlier in this thread, it is definitely a good thing for Canada to eliminate the lower price we sell oil and gas to the US, and most of the commentors on the link agreed. I wonder how many of them will realise this means Canada will need to start pulling its own weight a lot more now? For years now the US has basically picked up the tab for the majority of continental defense.. How long until a POTUS says enough if enough, this has to be a mutual thing?
 
Sadly, many Canadian business executives still don't "get it". This is the attitude that Edward is pointing to when he decries the lack of competitiveness and productivity in Canadian business; the attitude is basically "It's someone else's problem to fix":

http://opinion.financialpost.com/2012/04/04/william-watson-if-you-cant-beat-china-surrender/

William Watson: If you can’t beat China, surrender

William Watson  Apr 4, 2012 – 9:17 PM ET | Last Updated: Apr 5, 2012 7:48 AM ET

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Corporate honchos forget we were running a First World economy while Mao was trying to get peasants to build blast furnaces in their backyards

I sat in on a meeting this week of some major Canadian corporate honchos and retired diplomats who are working on a strategy they’re going to recommend to the Prime Minister for dealing with the challenges posed by the advent of rapidly growing emerging economies such as the BRICs: Brazil, Russia, India and China — but mainly China.

It is symptomatic of a chronic Canadian problem that they mainly emphasized the challenges posed by dynamic new competitors rather than the opportunities offered by hundreds of millions of new customers hauling themselves up out of poverty.
Related

    Terence Corcoran

The meeting was held under Chatham House Rules so I can’t tell you who was there — though you would know several names — or what exactly was said. I am able to report that the strategy proposed by a majority of participants can be summarized in one word: surrender.

Surrender, not in the sense of giving up on investing or selling into these countries or letting them take over our market, but rather surrender in the sense of giving up on doing both business and international relations in the way that has served us so well since the Second World War and before and instead adopting a more, well, Chinese approach.

The Chinese, I heard, have several major advantages over us. They have a government that has no compunctions about picking economic winners and pouring tens of billions of dollars — $60-billion in aerospace alone — into the sectors it’s betting on. Unlike ours, their government has a “strategic vision” for the Chinese economy. They have five-year plans. (Of course they have five-year plans, I couldn’t help but interject. They’re communists! Five-year plans is what communists do.)

They and India have cheap labour and the Chinese state-owned firms and sovereign wealth funds apparently pay no heed to the cost of capital when making decisions. (They apparently have Carney-like discount rates of zero all the time, which should at least enable them to pay a pretty penny for any assets they buy from us.) Up against these odds, the consensus seemed to be, it’s very hard for us to compete.

Now, we were running a First World economy while Mao was trying to get peasants to build blast furnaces in their backyards, was unleashing the Red Guard on anyone bourgeois enough to wear eyeglasses, and was imposing starvation on many millions of his citizens and poverty on all of them. But now because the Chinese have finally come to their senses and adopted a variant of capitalism — our system, remember — that has given them powerhouse growth for three decades we apparently need to abandon many of our habits, laws and even values and follow the Chinese model.
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Thus our governments have to get behind our “national champion” firms. (Is what’s good for Bombardier really always good for Canada?) Our politico-industrial complex (my term, not theirs) has to get its act together and come up with strategies for our entire economy, our leading sectors and our government-owned banks. In effect, we have to learn from the upstarts and become more like our Chinese and Indian competitors, whose governments are never shy about throwing their weight around, writing rules that favour their own champions, leveraging access to their increasingly affluent markets and in every way possible skirting the accepted international rules of trade and investment.

In sum, we have to stop being boy scouts and start getting tough. And, what you might least expect from a group of business heavyweights, our governments have to show us the way. (That we have a business class that wants government to lead is — can there by any doubt? — the real Canadian problem.)

What’s even stranger: As much as I heard about the need for our various governments to get involved in industrial strategizing, I heard even more about how inefficient, capricious, indecisive and short-sighted these same governments normally are in their dealings with business, and how they and their agencies, many of which overlap ineffectively, so often work at cross purposes.

Yet somehow, once it becomes clear that an effective industrial strategy requires it, these governments will abandon the habits of centuries and become streamlined, decisive and as tough and single-minded as Goldman Sachs. No doubt it would help them to do so if we adopt the Chinese political model of having only one party and no election that ever actually means anything.

With my staunch pro-market views I was of course accused of being naive. “Adam Smith” and “B.S.” (I abbreviate) were used in the same denunciatory sentence from one captain of industry. But if the strategy you favour depends on governments suddenly transforming their essential nature, the question needs to be asked: Who’s being naive? (One especially world-weary participant accused me of being “ideological,” which in the usage conventional in such debates means “holding views I disagree with.”)

The fact is, thank God!, we are very different from China — even if, slowly, they are moving in our direction, and will continue to do so if only we (i.e., the West) hold our nerve. We run an open society. Our courts are independent from the government. We are free to lobby, and sue, and form whatever interest groups we like. We’re also, it might be added, riven by regional jealousies. All of this greatly complicates Canadian public policy. And it means our governments, which must answer to many constituencies, will never be as efficient as China’s.

That is, of course, a very good thing. Monopolies of power are always unwise, even Chinese ministers being capable of colossal error. But whether it’s a good thing or a bad thing, it’s how things are. Given that reality, we need to find ways of competing that are true to ourselves.
 
Two-armed robots are taking over.

How much time off?
How many hours in contract negotiation?
What is the shirt sleeve temperature?
How many air exchanges?
How much light?
How much food?
How many dependents?
What size house?
What size car?
How many washrooms?
What RRSP is required?
What LTD plan is required?
How many supervisors?
How many managers?

Edit to add evil thought:  >:D  How many gunners?
 
I disagree, quite fundamentally, with a lot of what is said in this opinion piece, which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail, but a lot more people pay attention to Thomas Homer-Dixon than pay attention to me so you should figure that this will be read and heads will nod in some pretty powerful circles:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/opinion/alls-not-lost-ontario-the-future-is-green-not-black/article2393398/
All's not lost, Ontario. The future is green, not black

THOMAS HOMER-DIXON

From Saturday's Globe and Mail
Published Saturday, Apr. 07, 2012

Ontario, we’re told, is Canada’s new rust belt. The high dollar is pummelling the province’s exports. Big manufacturers are fleeing. The Liberal government is slashing spending to maintain the province’s credit rating. And to top it off, it’s wasting money promoting green energy. There’s just one problem with this pop wisdom: It’s largely nonsense.

Ontario certainly faces huge challenges. Its main trading partner – the United States – is only now emerging from the economic doldrums that followed the 2008-09 financial crisis. And since that crisis, the world economy has been struggling with depressed consumer demand, wary investors and aggressive deleveraging by households, businesses and governments.

Ontario wasn’t ready for this new reality. From the early 1990s to the mid-2000s, a weak loonie made Ontario’s products artificially competitive outside Canada, so companies deferred investment in new factories and technologies. Then the dollar soared, partly because of Canada’s relative fiscal probity and partly because the world wanted Western Canada’s resources. Ontario’s manufacturers were caught in a low-productivity trap.

Add in an aging population with rising health costs, the flight of talent and capital to the West, and a decline in the skills of immigrants, and who wouldn’t be gloomy about Ontario’s prospects.

But hold on. Isn’t it possible that this challenge is exactly what Ontario needs? Societies and economies never undergo deep change without powerful incentives, and powerful incentives usually come in the guise of crisis.

Ontario has formidable assets. Its population is big, diverse and well-educated. Most of its people live in a relatively compact region that has very good, albeit sometimes tired, infrastructure. This region thrusts downward into the United States, providing close geographic proximity to the giant economic hubs of the U.S. Midwest and Northeast. And the city of Toronto has a phenomenal concentration of business acumen and financial capital. In fact, as a financial centre, it ranks third in North America and ties with Sydney, Australia, for 10th place globally, just behind Zurich and ahead of Frankfurt and Paris.

But in a world in economic turmoil, Ontario’s most important asset – its network of excellent public universities and public colleges – is often overlooked. The province has one of the planet’s densest concentrations of institutions of higher education. If effectively employed, it could help Ontario pivot to confront the global economy’s long-term trends.

The most important of these trends is a multi-decade shift from fossil fuels to carbon-free energy. The shift will accelerate as oil becomes harder to produce and climate change worsens. Once climate change really starts affecting people’s lives – when it cuts world grain production, for instance – people will demand action. The action will come in the form of regulations and taxes that raise the price of carbon fuels.

The shift to carbon-free energy will be akin to what economists call a “general purpose technology” transition. The modern world has seen half a dozen or so transitions in the past 200 years, including those following the introduction of railways, electricity, the internal combustion engine and the computer microchip. Each produced staggering economic upheaval: companies, jobs and whole industries vanished, while new ones exploded onto the scene. These were periods of startling innovation, rapid economic growth and enormous opportunity for entrepreneurial individuals and communities.

The coming energy shift will dwarf all these earlier transitions combined. It won’t arise from just one disruptive technology but from an integrated suite of many, such as advanced batteries, building reskinning, smart grids, cheap super-thin photovoltaic materials, ultra-deep geothermal power, and perhaps thorium nuclear power. It will spur the invention and delivery of a torrent of new technologies, goods and services in every sector of the global economy.

Since the middle of the last century, the communities that have generated such rapid and disruptive innovation have almost always developed around hubs of higher education. In the U.S., Stanford played a key role in the rise of Silicon Valley, MIT and Harvard seeded the biotech industries in Boston, and the University of Texas helped make Austin a high-tech powerhouse. Ontario can build innovation clusters around its universities with a particular focus on inventing, developing and marketing the new energy technologies the world needs.

Commentators on the political right often slam the economics of green energy. They say that renewables are inefficient, that they create jobs in China, not in Canada, that Europe is cutting green-energy subsidies and that, in any case, the world and especially Canada are hopelessly hooked on carbon. Many of these criticisms are factually wrong, and they’re all shortsighted.

Ontario should focus on the long game. While Alberta and the federal Conservatives double down on carbon, Ontario can be in the vanguard of one of the biggest technological revolutions humanity will ever experience. The future is green, not black.

Thomas Homer-Dixon is director of the Waterloo Institute for Complexity and Innovation and CIGI Chair of Global Systems at the Balsillie School of International Affairs in Waterloo, Ont.


Homer-Dixon is correct that Ontario has many, many advantages a well educated, sophisticated workforce that can innovate being the biggest; but going green, while something that should be done just because carbon is a finite resource, is not the provincial saviour. I'm not sure what the "next big thing" will be, maybe "green" is really important, what I am sure of is that putting too many eggs in any one basket, picking winners, is not it.
 
On the other hand ERC you have to give Homer this:  there are many places in the world where fossil fuels have to be imported which drives up all their input costs and decreases their competitiveness.  Nirvana is acheivable if a cheaper fuel source can be found.

I would support Ontario investing hard earned tax dollars in such a scheme.  Once they secure that alternative energy source then they will be able to outpace Alberta again and all will be right with the world.  In the meantime we in Alberta shall have to put up with making money from ancient outmoded technologies.

In the interest of setting Ontario off on the right track might I suggest that they start their research with "The Philosopher's Stone".  I am sure that there is much knowledge yet to be gleaned from those ancients.
 
"Going green" is to political/economic affairs as "reinforcing failure" is to martial affairs.
 
I suppose this report, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Financial Times (London) is about Canada being "relevant:"

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/1d085e5a-88a7-11e1-9b8d-00144feab49a.html#axzz1sKvXFnjm
Canadian approached for top BoE job

By Patrick Jenkins, Chris Giles and Brooke Masters

April 17, 2012

Mark Carney, the governor of Canada’s central bank, has been informally approached as a potential candidate to replace Sir Mervyn King as head of the Bank of England in June next year.

One of the world’s most respected central bankers, Mr Carney, 47, now heads the Financial Stability Board, which oversees global financial regulation. He was approached recently by a member of the BoE’s court, the largely non-executive body that oversees its activities, according to three people involved in the process.

f92e9520-88a7-11e1-9b8d-00144feab49a.img


Mr Carney declined to comment.

At the same time, the Treasury wants Charlie Bean – one of the BoE’s two deputy governors – to stay on temporarily in an attempt to stabilise the top echelons of the organisation. Mr Bean had also been due to leave next June.

While Paul Tucker, the BoE’s current deputy governor for financial stability, remains the favourite to replace Sir Mervyn, there is a growing view within the Treasury that the BoE needs shaking up following its ponderous response to the financial crisis. Parachuting in an outsider for the first time in 30 years would signal the government’s intent that the central bank should stop acting solely as a monetary authority and take its financial stability role more seriously. The BoE is set to take control of bank safety regulation from a disbanded Financial Services Authority next year.

Barbara Ridpath, chief executive of the International Centre for Financial Regulation, said: “Mark Carney is a quick study and has an enviable track record in the private sector, monetary policy and regulatory issues. Few other ‘candidates’ have all three.”

Very rarely are national central banks headed by foreign citizens, with a notable exception being Stanley Fischer, the American appointed as Israel’s central bank governor in 2005. Naming a foreigner as governor of the 318-year-old central bank would break with tradition, although Mr Carney has a British wife, studied at Oxford university, and worked at Goldman Sachs in London early in his career. “As a Canadian national he is a subject of the Queen,” said one supporter. “That is important.”

George Osborne, the chancellor of the exchequer, is not expected to take a formal decision on the governorship until later this year, possibly announcing it with the November pre-Budget statement.

More on link


This is quite a feather in Mr. Carney's cap and it reminds us that we cannot keep him forever.
 
The Liberal-NDP collaberation of the idiots in Ontario is treading dangerous ground here. Calls for increased taxation will cause a ruinous loss of income as business, skilled labour and capital flee. This is a pretty universal observation (as anyone who has watched recent developments in the UK, or noticed the failure of "millionaire taxes" in various US States, or even has a passing knowledge of history). Comparing this to "ethnic cleansing" may sound pretty extreme, but that will be the end result, and Regina and Calgary will replace Toronto as the financial capitals of Canada:

http://opinion.financialpost.com/2012/04/18/visgoths-versus-bay-street/

Why I said taxes on the rich are like ethnic cleansing: Jim Doak
James Doak, Special to Financial Post  Apr 18, 2012 – 10:32 PM ET | Last Updated: Apr 19, 2012 1:48 PM ET

I recently labelled the Ontario NDP’s choice of taxing the rich as ethnic cleansing — trying to force a defined group, in this case those with annual incomes over $500,000, to emigrate. My choice of words was deliberate and the example I had in mind of recent Canadian vintage.

Watch the video here

I wish my opposition was only the Ontario NDP, but it is really all those who want an easy fix, those who envy successful people with money, and those motivated by political greed. Like Visigoths wandering down the Via Aurelia into Rome, the Ontario NDP is in awe. It sees the shining bank towers and, well, it wants them. Its leader, Andrea Horwath, a former community worker, likely knows as much about the capital markets and the financial services industry as the Visigoths knew about marble plumbing and the Forum.

Canadians in favour of “taxing the rich” are inspired by American television and the Occupy protests. Unfortunately, Canadian financial companies neither melted down nor cost Canadian taxpayers a penny. Unfortunately the American “Buffett rule” arithmetic doesn’t apply in Ontario, where someone making $500,000 a year pays $212,479 of tax at a marginal tax rate of 46.41%, while someone making $36,000 a year (Buffett’s secretary’s salary) pays $5,420 a year at a marginal rate of 20.05% (both cases no deductions). Note that the ratio of salaries is 14:1 and the ratio of taxes payable is 40:1 because we have much more progressive tax rates than the United States. And if our leftists don’t like excessive executive compensation, they will have to get in line behind institutional investors who have been fighting it for over 10 years.

Of course the left pretends to be against no one, just in favour — of “basic fairness” as one journalist put it. The NDP estimates its proposed surtax of 2% on Ontario incomes over $500,000 will raise $500-million annually by multiplying the current number of Ontario high incomes by 2%. How naive. Two percent on $500,000 is $10,000 a year, or the cost of moving a family of four to Calgary forever.



Visigoth politicians believe an economy can be fenced in then sacked because it is static. Yes for the short term, say the period until the next election. But an economy is dynamic and exists in real-time competition with other fiscal jurisdictions. The capital markets based in Toronto raised $311-billion of debt, equity, trust and partnership units in 2010. This number is before the monies lent by the commercial banks and funds based there.

We can’t be certain how much of this was reinvested in Ontario, but even corporations with foreign assets used Ontario lawyers, accountants and all the ancillary services of a modern corporation. The Toronto Financial Services Alliance estimates there are 300,000 direct and indirect financial services jobs in downtown Toronto, which contribute 22% of the Greater Toronto Area’s GDP. The cost of capital for Canadian corporations was the inverse of their P/E multiples, set in turn by the optimism of domestic and foreign investors that the fiscal system remain “fair.” Tax the rich threatens all of the above, but echoes Horwath’s repetition of “thieves” in her acceptance speech as leader.

Unfortunately, we have a recent example of the impact of targeted legislation and the mobility of the financial services industry from another province. Between 1974 and the present Quebec chose to drop the English language from its constitutional status as an official language and to regulate the users of the language.

In all modesty, the proponents of the Quebec language legislation claim no credit for the building of modern Toronto, where they strongly encouraged an estimated 200,000 taxpayers and over 100 head offices to go. Without these people, banks, brokerage houses and money managers plus the executive offices of the Royal Bank of Canada, Bank of Montreal, Sun Life and others, Toronto would not have achieved its critical mass in financial services. Let Ms. Horwath visit St. James Street today and she will find a furniture store, various restaurants and the old stock market building turned into a theatre.

We have built extraordinary prosperity in the province of Ontario. Some of this is due to the immigrants from Quebec and some of it is due to international immigrants, both groups attracted by the rule of law and impartial legal and taxation systems. None of it is due to targeting specific groups and punishing them with higher taxes and, may we say it, encouraging them to leave. I too don’t like some of the people on Bay Street, but I won’t support the NDP’s proposed tax discrimination against them — I’m too old to move to Calgary.

Financial Post
James Doak emigrated from Montreal to Toronto in the 1970s and has worked on Bay Street for over 30 years as an equity research analyst and money manager.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
Although I agree it, the tactics referred to in this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail, is "bullying," I happen to agree with dropping the "supply management" system even without concessions for the reasons I have cited above:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/john-ibbitson/being-a-spoke-in-american-trade-isnt-enough-for-canada/article2382331/

Both Plans A and B should be pursued at the same time ... they both make good economic sense.

Supply management must go, sooner or later, it is a dumb policy - unless you happen to be one of the lucky few who are allowed to fix the prices the 99%+ pay for milk and eggs. The farmers concerned have been quite vocal, going so far as to threaten violence, and when, in past years (e.g. 1976), Ottawa even dared to talk about eliminating supply management those farmers did demonstrate, with violence, on Parliament Hill.

whelanmilk-620.jpg

Source: CBC News http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/story/2012/01/04/pol-supply-management-trade.html?cmp=rss

What better time to move than now, during the first two years of a mandate ~ by the time the 2015 election rolls around 99%+ of Canadians will be grateful for lower milk, butter and egg prices.


More, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail, on why supply management is a silly policy:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/commentary/neil-reynolds/kiwis-put-canadas-dairy-supply-scheme-to-shame/article2412589/
Kiwis put Canada’s dairy supply scheme to shame

NEIL REYNOLDS | Columnist profile | E-mail

OTTAWA— From Wednesday's Globe and Mail
Published Tuesday, Apr. 24, 2012

In the worldwide food shortages that developed at the end of the Second World War, tiny New Zealand grew fabulously rich. The country fed Britain, New Zealand dairy farmer Thomas Lambie recalled years later in an essay published by the Cato Institute. “[We] had the second-highest per-capita income in the world. … Farmers had it made.”

In the ensuing years, New Zealand’s government moved decisively to protect the country’s farmers from marketplace risks – supply fluctuations, declines in prices, foreign competition. It didn’t hurt that, as Mr. Lambie put it, almost every cabinet minister was a farmer. The country adopted supply management in all its forms: marketing boards, controlled prices, import tariffs and import quotas.

When finished protecting dairy farmers, governments proceeded to protect everyone else. “We locked out the foreign competition,” Mr. Lambie wrote. “We ‘protected’ people’s jobs and we had virtually no unemployment.”

Fortress New Zealand, as it was dubbed, did well for more than 20 years. In 1973, however, Britain entered the European Economic Community – and New Zealand farmers lost their primary market. In 1979, the first of the oil shocks struck. The country was compelled to borrow to sustain its protectionist devices. Huge deficits followed, accompanied by spiralling debt. The country hit the wall early in the 1980s with simultaneous financial crises in public and private sectors.

New Zealand had no choice but to dismantle the Fortress, and farming was the first industry liberated. An industrial revolution followed. Rather than please government, Mr. Lambie said, farmers realized that they needed to please consumers. Rather than pass along price increases, they realized that they needed to operate more efficiently. With supply management, sheep farmers tended 70 million sheep; after supply management, they produced the same amount of meat with 40 million sheep. With supply management, productivity increases averaged 1 per cent a year. After supply management, they averaged 4 per cent.

Within six years, moribund New Zealand was ready to take on the world. “We now live in one of the most open and unregulated economies in the world. Other than a few tariffs … we are completely open at the border for everything.” So it remains to this day. The Heritage Foundation’s 2012 Index of Economic Freedom lists New Zealand as the fourth-freest country in the world (behind Hong Kong, Singapore and Australia). Canada is sixth.

This difference in ranking comes down to supply management, the means by which Canadian dairy farmers (and others) are permitted to fix the prices of their products – actions that, in any other industry, could land them heavy fines or imprisonment. It’s a big difference. Canada (population: 33 million) exports $250-million in dairy products a year. New Zealand (population: four million) exports 10 times as much, $2.5-billion. Canada exports only a marginal percentage of its production of milk and milk products; New Zealand exports 95 per cent.

Many countries protect their dairy industries through one form of supply management or another. Only 7 per cent of the world’s production of dairy products is traded on the global market. Yet these closed-door restrictions make New Zealand’s global success all the more impressive.

It isn’t only Canada that can’t compete with New Zealand. Neither can the United States or Europe. U.S. milk producers are now lobbying hard for an exemption from the pending negotiations for the Trans-Pacific Partnership, a free-trade zone that would include countries from North America, South America and Asia, including New Zealand and Australia.

But even 7 per cent of the global dairy market is an enormous amount of milk. New Zealand, the first country to sign a free-trade agreement with China (in 2008), now holds preferred trading status in many (actually, 90) goods and services in China, including dairy products. New Zealand is a truly global leader, as its statistics show.

New Zealand has five million dairy cows; Canada, 1.4 million. New Zealand’s average dairy herd is 336 cows; Canada, 72 cows. New Zealand sells almost half of the global trade in butter; with 80 per cent of Canadian dairy production, Ontario and Quebec “export” butter only to the rest of Canada – where, though heavily subsidized, it is largely considered, and priced, as a luxury product.

In Canada, incidentally, the price of butter increased 9 cents per kilogram this year – the supply management “support price” rising to $7.28 per kilogram from $7.19. In New Zealand, the open-market price fell 44 cents, to $3.86 per kg from $4.30. So much, exchange rate fluctuations aside, for Canada’s biggest protection racket.


Canadian dairy farmers are, right now,m fat, dumb and happy, pleasing the government rather than pleasing consumers; they could be even more fat and more happy, as are their Kiwi confreres, if they weren't so dumb.
 
The controlled drawdown of spending and taxes is working out very nicely. The fly in the ointment is Ontario's credit downgrad watch, which could single handedly bring everything to a screching halt by spiking interest rates. External shocks such as a chain reaction downgrade in the Eurozone sparked by Spain's downgrade to BBB+ or further deterioration of the US economy are also dangers to watch for:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/spending-cuts-give-ottawa-second-surplus-in-as-many-months/article2415852/

Spending cuts give Ottawa second surplus in as many months
BILL CURRY
OTTAWA— Globe and Mail Update
Posted on Friday, April 27, 2012 11:06AM EDT

Ottawa posted its second consecutive monthly surplus in February, bringing in $1.5-billion more in revenue than it paid out in expenses.

The February surplus follows a $1.7-billion surplus in January. As a result, with just one month left in the current fiscal year, the 2011-12 cumulative deficit stands at $14.5-billion. That’s well below the $24.4-billion the government projected in its March 29 budget ($24.9-billion once new budget measures were factored in.)

It is not clear why there is such a large difference between Finance Canada’s budget numbers and its monthly tracking numbers.

The monthly tracking numbers suggest Ottawa is moving aggressively to curb program spending.

Spending on programs in February was down 3.6 per cent from February 2011, a category that includes transfer payments and other program expenses. Because Ottawa is increasing major transfers to the provinces for health and education, on overall reduction signals that spending on direct federal programs is down significantly.

Over the first 11 months of the fiscal year, revenues were up 4.7-per cent to $220.1-billion and program expenses were down 1.9 per cent to $206.2-billion. Over that same period, spending on elderly benefits increased by $2.2-billion or 6.8 per cent and Employment Insurance benefit payments decreased by $2-billion or 11.2 per cent.

Of course the other problem is it will take another 14 months at this rate to eliminate the deficit and over 500 months to pay down the Debt (and an additional 500 months to cover the unfunded liabilities) assuming the government can continue to generate numbers like this, which is a problematic assumption at best. Still, being able to think our great grandchildren might celebrate debt freedom day in 2096 or 97 may hold some comfort.
 
Thucydides said:
Comparing this to "ethnic cleansing" may sound pretty extreme, but that will be the end result, and Regina and Calgary will replace Toronto as the financial capitals of Canada:

:rofl:

Thanks. I needed that laugh. A relatively small incremental increase in taxation isn't going to suddenly drive the financial industry out of Toronto. The cost of uprooting all the capital and people to move them would be massive, more than the tax cost I'd suspect. So, what will happen is some people will whine, and then life will carry on as normal.

That was even more ridiculous than the ethnic cleansing comment that brought it about.
 
Pierre Poilievre - Economic Freedom Speech - Enhanced Version

Excelent speech summarizing the historical roots of the financial crisis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWkUaJId7pM&feature=player_embedded#!
 
Thucydides said:
Excelent speech summarizing the historical roots of the financial crisis:

I would assume you were sarcastic, but as I am beginning to know your views through your posts, that would be an incorrect assumption ;) .

I am a conservative, and fully endorse the current government handling of economic affairs. However, that speech from Poilievre is simply and utterly a complete economic claptrap politico-sound-good-to-my-constituents-who-don't-understand speech.

Fanny May and Freddy Mac did not sell any sub-prime mortgages - ever. They were sold by "economic freedom loving" capitalist organisations known as Banks and Mortgage Lending Institutions who were flaunting the rules that would qualify them for guarantees by FM and FM, without telling them that they were flaunting the rules. They were betting, without any provision for losing, on an ever increasing housing market, and to make maters worse, the great financial minds of the City (all economic freedom loving of course) then decide to bundle up all those sub-prime bets into apparently safe product (unfortunately all with the same clay foot) called asset backed commercial paper. That more than anything else (and the underlying greed) caused the financial melting and Poilievre completely ignores this. On the European side, he is right to point to problems with certain countries debt - but he should not equate that with the failure of what he calls "socialism" in Europe. You can't do that when you look at the European states that have the same or even greater "socialist" systems but are succeeding economically without any debt/deficit/ problems, such as the Nordic states - Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland and, yes Germany (which is "socialist" in government system).

Finally, I find it funny that he would compare Canada's taxes to the US and somehow intimate that they are lower than the US. It just ain't so.

 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
I would assume you were sarcastic, but as I am beginning to know your views through your posts, that would be an incorrect assumption ;) .

I am a conservative, and fully endorse the current government handling of economic affairs. However, that speech from Poilievre is simply and utterly a complete economic claptrap politico-sound-good-to-my-constituents-who-don't-understand speech.

Fanny May and Freddy Mac did not sell any sub-prime mortgages - ever. They were sold by "economic freedom loving" capitalist organisations known as Banks and Mortgage Lending Institutions who were flaunting the rules that would qualify them for guarantees by FM and FM, without telling them that they were flaunting the rules. They were betting, without any provision for losing, on an ever increasing housing market, and to make maters worse, the great financial minds of the City (all economic freedom loving of course) then decide to bundle up all those sub-prime bets into apparently safe product (unfortunately all with the same clay foot) called asset backed commercial paper. That more than anything else (and the underlying greed) caused the financial melting and Poilievre completely ignores this. On the European side, he is right to point to problems with certain countries debt - but he should not equate that with the failure of what he calls "socialism" in Europe. You can't do that when you look at the European states that have the same or even greater "socialist" systems but are succeeding economically without any debt/deficit/ problems, such as the Nordic states - Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland and, yes Germany (which is "socialist" in government system).

Finally, I find it funny that he would compare Canada's taxes to the US and somehow intimate that they are lower than the US. It just ain't so.


While I agree with you, broadly, especially about Pierre Poilievre being full of sh!t, I think Fanny May and Freddy Mac, and their political masters, do need to answer for creating an environment within which fast talking "money managers" could create valueless products from a very risky base and then get them rated as AAA. The fact that the mortgages were guaranteed by Fanny and Freddy, at the behest of both Democrats and Republicans ~ there's lots of blame for all the social engineers in both parties, meant that the fast taklers could do their financial slight of hand with relative impunity.

Pierre Poilievre is a darling of the right in Canada despice being bereft of ideas, intellect or experience.

But one thing about which Poilievre would have been right, had he bothered to think it through, is that most of the "blame" lies with the people who bought the financial 'fool's gold,' looking for a quick, unnaturally high return. Most of them knew, or should have known, that markets don't work that way - they are not that easy; as a general rule high yield = higher risk, no matter what Moodys et al say about a product. Folks bought stuff marketee as high yield, it was riskey, it's ALWAYS risky, those same folks got badly burned. I might despise the fast talking creators of the packages but I have no, zero sympathy for the folks who bought them.
 
Our banks did receive 114 billion in bailouts. 3400$ per person.  More than enough to buy every single share.


Canadian banks received 'secret' bailout: Think-tank

By Peter Henderson, Postmedia News April 30, 2012


Canadians were never told the true cost of a $114-billion "secret bailout" for the country's biggest banks during the financial crisis, says a report from the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives.

"We've had a false sense of security," said study author and CCPA economist David MacDonald.

"Ever since the global financial crisis struck in 2008, Canadians have been subjected to a constant refrain: Canada has the 'most sound banking system in the world,'" MacDonald writes in the report. "During the worst of the crisis — 2008 to 2010 — the official line was that Canada's banks did not require the extraordinary bailout measures that were being offered in other countries, particularly in the U.S.

"At its peak in March 2009, support for Canadian banks reached $114 billion. To put that into perspective, that would have made up seven per cent of the Canadian economy in 2009 and was worth $3,400 for every man, woman and child in Canada."

A spokesman for Finance Minster Jim Flaherty said MacDonald got it wrong.

"Despite conspiracy theories to the contrary, there was no 'secret bailout,'" said Flaherty spokesperson Chisholm Pothier. "Even a cursory look at the facts, readily available and published many times, indicates this report is completely baseless."

To some extent, the report and the rebuttal to it are a matter of how the facts are interpreted.

Where MacDonald says "bailout," a finance ministry official says "liquidity support." While MacDonald said the government tried to hide the numbers even from Access to Information requests, the official said the bank funding was "clearly, publicly laid out — repeatedly."

MacDonald used public filings by banks, government agencies, and financial regulators to provide what he called a composite picture of the flow of money between financial institutions and the individual Canadian banks struggling in the midst of a global recession.

All of the loans provided by the government as part of its relief program for Canadian lenders have been paid back in full, said Pothier.

The problems for the banks began when the credit crunch in the United States put the squeeze on Canadian lenders in late 2007.

The Harper government stepped in and used a number of measures to free up money for Canada's banks during the financial crisis — including buying mortgage-backed securities and providing short-term loans.

All told, the study counts $114 billion worth of guarantees and financial aid for Canada's big banks from October 2008 to July 2010 by the Bank of Canada, the United States Federal Reserve, and the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp.

But it's not the amount of money that's at the centre of the dispute — MacDonald claims the government wasn't honest or transparent about its spending.

"The federal government claims it was offering the banks 'liquidity support,' but it looks an awful lot like a bailout to me," says MacDonald. "Whatever you call it, government aid for the country's biggest banks was far more substantial than the official line would suggest."

MacDonald study says that, at one point, three of the country's biggest banks — CIBC, Bank of Montreal and Scotiabank — were receiving government support that was equal to or more than the value of the company's shares.

"Government programs could have just purchased every single share in those banks instead of providing support," he said. "That's not the story Canadians were told. There was a massive failure in the private-sector market."

A spokeswoman for the Canadian Bankers Association said government support was meant to help banks lend to small business, not to protect the banks from failure.

"Not one bank in Canada was in danger of going bankrupt or required the government to buy an equity stake under taxpayer-funded bailouts," said Rachel Swiednicki.

Swiednicki said comparing the value of a bank's shares and their participation in a government program the banks say was aimed at boosting small-business lending is like comparing apples to oranges.

Similar efforts were made by central banks around the world when private credit markets froze in 2008 and 2009.

"Not only did these measures play an important role in supporting Canadian business during the credit crunch, they also made money for Canadian taxpayers," said Pothier.

The CMHC's purchase of $69 billion in home loans in 2008 and 2009 is expected to net the government $2.5 billion by 2015, according to projections in the 2012 budget.

Pothier said the government laid out its plans to support the banks in a number of public documents, most recently in the 2012 budget.

Read more: http://www.canada.com/business/Canadian+banks+received+secret+bailout+Think+tank/6540917/story.html#ixzz1tc5fb2RN
 
There was no secret bailouts....this was in the news at the time as a hedge against the issues in the US.....no big deal....
 
Really, the 114 billion was just "liquidity support"  for small business loans. 3400$ for every man woman and child in Canada and more than the book value of the banks.  :facepalm:
 
Nemo-

Did the $114 billion ever get spent, or was it pledged "if required"?

If any of it was spent, how much is still outstanding? You know- the difference between a loan and a gift?

The cdn centre for policy alternatives is usually somewhat....liberal...with the facts.
 
SeaKingTacco said:
Nemo-

Did the $114 billion ever get spent, or was it pledged "if required"?

If any of it was spent, how much is still outstanding? You know- the difference between a loan and a gift?

The cdn centre for policy alternatives is usually somewhat....liberal...with the facts.

Yeah, and they're totally wrong.

The government did agree to buy mortgages from the banks - trading cash now for the stream of payments (at a premium), because despite the fact that Canadian banks were financially solid. Basically, what the deal did was allowed the banks to borrow using the Government Of Canada's credit rating, which was critical at the time because no one was lending to anyone but solid sovereign states at the time.

The government charged a premium that worked out to 50 basis points if I remember right, which means that the public made money on the deal, and the banks got access to the credit they need to keep operating (and in turn to allow businesses to keep operating, which was a concern at the time). In terms of risk, there was none. The government only was willing to buy mortgages insured by CMHC that met their underwriting standards, and for which they were on the hook in the event of default, not the banks. So the public assumed no risk but did a deal to make sure that the banks had access to liquidity without which the whole system collapses.

Don't confuse that with what happened in the USA, when crap loans were pawned off by lenders to institutional investors who didn't understand just how bad the loans they were buying actually were.
 
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