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Making Canada Relevant Again- The Economic Super-Thread

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Redeye said:
Indefinitely? No. But they can be delayed until we actually understand the consequences of the actions. The more comes to light about fracking the worse it looks, though, which does suggest to me that the risks aren't worth the returns. Particularly when the risks seem to be born by the public while the returns go primarily to the industry. Yes, the public benefits from theoretically cheaper and abundant natural gas, but you still can't make an assessment of cost/benefit when costs aren't known.

Not near a gasfield, nope. Alberta's a beautiful place, I quite enjoyed the (limited) time I've spent there. But I happen to like my corner of the world as well, and I don't have plans to leave any time soon.

But Redeye you will never ever know everything about everything.  That capability isn't given to anybody down here.  You will always work with the best available hypothesis at the time the decision is required of you..... And you will always, eventually, be proven wrong.  Circumstances will change with time and someone somewhere will argue that a "better" decision could have been made....and they will be right.  But, at the time of the decision the circumstances, the knowledge base and the understanding were different than they are and than they will be. 

When I design a plant or a solution it is based on the best available information and my best guesses.  I will deliver it and make it work.  In three months time the operators will know that plant a whole lot better than I do.  The next step is to start fixing the plant to make it work in the real world.  Making cheese, bread, beer or wurst - GPMGs, M1 Abrams or F35s - or oil and gas facilities the process is always the same.  Prior Planning Prevents P*ss Poor Performance.  Prior Planning does not Procure Perfection.  It may only get you to Poor Performance.

Side bar:  A personal bug bear of mine is accountants with their predilection for counting pennies - even on projects of millions of dollars.  A penny on a $10,000,000 system represents a 99.9999999% of surety.  Using the best available texts and data and conducting confirmatory studies it is the rare project where I can get you greater than a 70% level of surety.  90% is a real stretch.  This is because most analyses are only accurate to two to three digits.  Rounding results in one to two digits.  1 digit represents a 10% uncertainty level. 2 digits represents a 1% uncertainty level.  If you want greater certainty than that you won't find it in this world.  Those levels of uncertainty are the reason why every project in the world incorporates at least one safety factor (often in the 20% sometimes 100% range) and at least one contingency factor (in the 5 to 25% range).  A 25% contingency factor means that the $10,000,000 project incorporates a $2,000,000 allowance for screw ups.  Of the remaining $8,000,000 a 50% safety factor could result in an over engineered plant with $4,000,000 of unused, unprofitable material.  Thus your $10,000,000 plant may actually only deliver $4,000,000 of capability -  and we haven't touched on the profit I want to make on this thing yet.  The only mitigating factor in all of this is that I am competing for the job against other folks, some of whom may have better knowledge and experience - and willing to reduce the contingency from 25% to 50%, some of whom may be willing to take a greater risk and reduce the safety factor to code minimum, and some of whom are willing to reduce their profit margin (they are in the minority).

As to the Alberta Gas Field......arguably the "Alberta" Gas Field extends from the MacKenzie Delta to Prince George and Brandon and down past the border across the US between the Mississippi and the Rockies and on into Mexico and its Gulf.

Cheers.

And, just having seen Brad's post, it IS better to sell your resources to someone that is desperate for them than deny them those resources.  If you won't give them, they will take them.  Better that you should make a profit than pay for a war.

Having said that, with foreign investment in domestic resources, we always maintain the upper hand because we possess those resources.  In extremis we can always abrogate any contracts in force, even nationalize the assets in place, and dare the owners of the assets to come and get them.  This is not an unknown risk for energy companies.


 
"Rant on"

IMHO We are NEVER going to get back on track so long as the Harper Government has the obbsession that the main problem facing Canada is "Islamiscism".

Our economic competitors are laughing their heads off over their woks at that one.  To Paraphrase Lenin, "When we hang the last Western, it wil be with a rope, that WE sold Them, on credit.

Finally thinking back to the last incursion into Lebanon, and  the murder of one of our UN peacekeepers, with allies like Isreal, who needs enemies.

As Slick Willie once famously said to Dubya's pappy, "Its the economy, Stupid".

"/Rant off"
 
Kirkhill said:
But Redeye you will never ever know everything about everything.  That capability isn't given to anybody down here.  You will always work with the best available hypothesis at the time the decision is required of you..... And you will always, eventually, be proven wrong.  Circumstances will change with time and someone somewhere will argue that a "better" decision could have been made....and they will be right.  But, at the time of the decision the circumstances, the knowledge base and the understanding were different than they are and than they will be. 

I accept that that we'll never know everything - but the reason I (and I'm by no means the only person) am not a fan of it is based on what we do know so far. We know that fracking contaminates water.  US states have ordered gas companies to supply drinking water to people whose wells have been rendered non-potable as a result of fracking activities. That doesn't necessarily help, the NYT article told the story of a family who are now getting water delivered but have to pay a lot of money for electricity to keep the water buffalo heated in the winter. There are also now studies into seismic impacts.

I have problems when I read about landmen basically using high pressure techniques to get people to sign leases for gas production without those people realizing the full extent of what they're getting into. It is to an extent their fault that they didn't get independent legal advice, but a good salesman can get people do forget about that sort of thing. I see it happen all the time in my day job.

Can we produce gas without fracking? As I understand it, yes. The wells aren't as productive, but perhaps that's a trade we have to accept should it become clear that the cost of fracking is indeed too high.

Kirkhill said:
When I design a plant or a solution it is based on the best available information and my best guesses.  I will deliver it and make it work.  In three months time the operators will know that plant a whole lot better than I do.  The next step is to start fixing the plant to make it work in the real world.  Making cheese, bread, beer or wurst - GPMGs, M1 Abrams or F35s - or oil and gas facilities the process is always the same.  Prior Planning Prevents P*ss Poor Performance.  Prior Planning does not Procure Perfection.  It may only get you to Poor Performance.

Perfection is impossible, agreed. But remember that when you do those things, you're looking after the interests of your employer. The cost to other stakeholders isn't yours to worry about. Those costs in the case of fracking are looking significant. In the case of the USA, they're not even getting reported because of exemptions to environmental laws the Bush Administration gifted to the gas industry (who were, undeniably, heavily connected friends of that administration). The fact is, just what's visible on the surface leaves a lot of questions.

Kirkhill said:
Side bar:  A personal bug bear of mine is accountants with their predilection for counting pennies - even on projects of millions of dollars.  A penny on a $10,000,000 system represents a 99.9999999% of surety.  Using the best available texts and data and conducting confirmatory studies it is the rare project where I can get you greater than a 70% level of surety.  90% is a real stretch.  This is because most analyses are only accurate to two to three digits.  Rounding results in one to two digits.  1 digit represents a 10% uncertainty level. 2 digits represents a 1% uncertainty level.  If you want greater certainty than that you won't find it in this world.  Those levels of uncertainty are the reason why every project in the world incorporates at least one safety factor (often in the 20% sometimes 100% range) and at least one contingency factor (in the 5 to 25% range).  A 25% contingency factor means that the $10,000,000 project incorporates a $2,000,000 allowance for screw ups.  Of the remaining $8,000,000 a 50% safety factor could result in an over engineered plant with $4,000,000 of unused, unprofitable material.  Thus your $10,000,000 plant may actually only deliver $4,000,000 of capability -  and we haven't touched on the profit I want to make on this thing yet.  The only mitigating factor in all of this is that I am competing for the job against other folks, some of whom may have better knowledge and experience - and willing to reduce the contingency from 25% to 50%, some of whom may be willing to take a greater risk and reduce the safety factor to code minimum, and some of whom are willing to reduce their profit margin (they are in the minority).

I agree on the counting pennies thing - it gets ridiculous. (Why do you think so many of us were annoyed when the US Federal Government cut funding to a vital service provider, Planned Parenthood, saving $75M out of a budget of how many billions?)

Kirkhill said:
As to the Alberta Gas Field......arguably the "Alberta" Gas Field extends from the MacKenzie Delta to Prince George and Brandon and down past the border across the US between the Mississippi and the Rockies and on into Mexico and its Gulf.

True. To be clear - I meant a developed, in production gas field - or one reasonably expected to be so in the near term!

Kirkhill said:
And, just having seen Brad's post, it IS better to sell your resources to someone that is desperate for them than deny them those resources.  If you won't give them, they will take them.  Better that you should make a profit than pay for a war.

Having said that, with foreign investment in domestic resources, we always maintain the upper hand because we possess those resources.  In extremis we can always abrogate any contracts in force, even nationalize the assets in place, and dare the owners of the assets to come and get them.  This is not an unknown risk for energy companies.

Interesting last statement though. Things like NAFTA have interesting implications for that - essentially, once you start selling something, you can't really stop without legal headaches. And that's what can start wars over resources.
 
Redeye said:
...
I agree on the counting pennies thing - it gets ridiculous. (Why do you think so many of us were annoyed when the US Federal Government cut funding to a vital service provider, Planned Parenthood, saving $75M out of a budget of how many billions?)
...


To paraphrase CD Howe, "$75 Million here, $75 Million there, pretty soon you're talking real money."

Cuts have to start somewhere ... it was your favourite ox being gored, but might you have been less outraged had the cuts come from, say, Farm Credit Canada?
 
Redeye said:
...

Interesting last statement though. Things like NAFTA have interesting implications for that - essentially, once you start selling something, you can't really stop without legal headaches. And that's what can start wars over resources.


Just a reminder, see here, especially the Conclusion which says: "NAFTA does not commit Canada to exporting a certain share of it energy supply to the United States."
 
Let me just say that, having lived in Alberta half my life, I have lived around Fracking a long time. I know people who frack for a living. I have lived on a farm with a producing gas well that was fracked (fwiw, our tap contained natural gas both before and after the gas well went in).

However, Redeye, you have gained your knowledge of Fracking from the New York Times and a bunch of websites (most of which is complete crap and devoid of any independent scientific verification), so I will defer to you from here forward. Clearly, nothing anyone says here will change your mind.
 
Back on the topic of economics, here is an interesting primer on the Austrian School (mostly by pointing out how it is being distorted) and what it really means:

http://reason.com/archives/2012/01/13/how-liberals-distort-austrian-economics/singlepage

How Liberals Distort Austrian Economics
The lame campaign to discredit the Austrian school

Sheldon Richman | January 13, 2012

When a presidential candidate declares, as Ron Paul has, “We’re all Austrians now,”  it’s inevitable that his critics would try to discredit him—whether they understand what he’s talking about or not. That’s what Matthew Yglesias does in his Slate piece “What Is ‘Austrian Economics’?”

I recommend the piece because it’s highly informative—about what Austrian economics is not.

We’re off to a rocky start with this: “The Austrian school originally referred to a set of classical liberal thinkers with diverse interests who came out of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.”

The earliest Austrian economists did not make their mark by advocating free markets and other classical-liberal ideas. They did so by proffering a revolutionary positive (not normative) theoretical approach to understanding how markets work, focusing on value, price, and capital, theory. What Wikipedia says is consistent with my understanding of the matter: “When Carl Menger, Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk, and [Friedrich von] Wieser began their careers in science, they were not focused on economic policy issues, much less in the rejection of intervention promoted by classical liberalism. Their common vocation was to develop an economic theory on a firm basis.”

Economics vs. Politics

Yglesias thus conflates Austrian economic theory with libertarian political theory. In fairness, he is not alone in committing this error. Many libertarians do the same, which is unfortunate. Austrian economic theory describes how purposive action by fallible human beings unintentionally generates a grand, complex, and orderly market process. An additional ethical step is required to pronounce the market process good. Economic theory per se cannot recommend but only explain markets. This is what Ludwig von Mises meant when he insisted that Austrian economics is value-free. Anyone of any persuasion ought to be able to acknowledge that economic logic indicates that imposing a price ceiling on milk will, other things equal, create a shortage of milk. But that in itself is not an argument against the policy. Mises assumed the policymaker would have thought that result bad, but the economist qua economist cannot declare it such. As Israel Kirzner likes to say, the economist’s job in the policy realm is merely to point out that you cannot catch a northbound train from the southbound platform.

Yglesias writes: “Austrians reject the idea that there is anything at all the government can do to stabilize macroeconomic fluctuations.” It’s odd to say this without also pointing out that Austrians believe that government causes the instability of inflationary booms, recessions, and depressions. In light of that point, the suggestion that government is capable of stabilizing the economy may be seen in its proper light.

That said, Yglesias’s statement is not quite right. Some prominent Austrian macroeconomists think that in a second-best world, the central bank (which of course wouldn’t exist in a first-best world) should counteract a sudden and substantial monetary contraction. In other words, deflation is not necessarily a cure for inflation. Mises made the point metaphorically in 1938: “If a man has been hurt by being run over by an automobile, it is no remedy to let the car go back over him in the [opposite] direction.” (See Steven Horwitz’s “Deflation: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.” )

Distorts Markets

“In the view of the Austrians,” Yglesias goes on, “practically every economic policy pursued by the federal government and Federal Reserve is a mistake that distorts markets. Rather than curing recessions, claim Austrians, stimulative policies cause them by producing unsustainable bubbles.” Well, yeah, and it’s amply demonstrated by George Selgin, William D. Lastrapes, and Lawrence H. White in “Has the Fed Been a Failure?” (See my summary, “‘F’ as in Fed.” ) As they put it:

Drawing on a wide range of recent empirical research, we find the following: (1) The Fed’s full history (1914 to present) has been characterized by more rather than fewer symptoms of monetary and macroeconomic instability than the decades leading to the Fed’s establishment. (2) While the Fed’s performance has undoubtedly improved since World War II, even its postwar performance has not clearly surpassed that of its undoubtedly flawed predecessor, the National Banking system, before World War I. (3) Some proposed alternative arrangements might plausibly do better than the Fed as presently constituted. We conclude that the need for a systematic exploration of alternatives to the established monetary system is as pressing today as it was a century ago.

Yglesias understands that the Austrian theory of the business cycle has something to do with artificially low interest rates breeding malinvestment, but he thinks it can’t be right because “it’s hard to understand why business people would be so easily duped in this way. If Ron Paul and Ludwig von Mises know that cheap money can’t last forever, why don’t private investors? Why wouldn’t firms avoid making the supposedly dumb investments?”

Gerald P. O’Driscoll and Mario Rizzo addressed this long ago in The Economics of Time and Ignorance:

[T]here are profits to be made from exploiting temporary situations. . . . Though entrepreneurs understand [the macro-aspects of a cycle] they cannot predict the exact features of the next cyclical expansion and contraction. . . . They lack the ability to make micro-predictions, even though they can predict the general sequence of events that will occur. These entrepreneurs have no reason to foreswear the temporary profits to be garnered in an inflationary episode. . . . From an individual perspective, then, an entrepreneur fully informed of the Austrian theory of economic cycles will face essentially the same uncertain world he always faced. Not theoretical or abstract knowledge, but knowledge of the circumstances of time and place is the source of profits.

Spending Shifts

Puzzlingly, Yglesias also thinks he can refute the Austrian theory by noting that “spending patterns shift all the time without sparking a recession.” To which, Peter Klein replies, “Of course, Yglesias’s breezy summary of the theory skips over the time structure of production, the difference between consumption and investment, the role of interest rates in securing intertemporal coordination, the problem of expectations, and the other basic elements of the theory, which ten minutes of Wikipedia browsing could have explained.

Yglesias reveals his unfamiliarity with the Austrian literature when he writes, “Many of the original Austrians found their business cycle ideas discredited by the Great Depression, in which the bust was clearly not self-correcting.” Considering that Herbert Hoover's and Franklin Roosevelt’s New Deal impeded the market’s correction process, one wonders how the 1930s could possibly have discredited the Austrian theory of the origin of recessions.

Finally, Yglesias contends that “the Austrian school . . . preaches despair and demands no action at all.”

Balderdash. Since it explains that busts are central-bank-caused and hence avoidable through market-based money and banking, its implicit message is one of hope and optimism. And as for demanding no action, on the contrary, it puts forth a long list of actions for those who want stable economic growth—all of them designed to dismantle the interventionist state.

Sheldon Richman is editor of The Freeman, where this article originally appeared.
 
SeaKingTacco said:
Let me just say that, having lived in Alberta half my life, I have lived around Fracking a long time. I know people who frack for a living. I have lived on a farm with a producing gas well that was fracked (fwiw, our tap contained natural gas both before and after the gas well went in).

However, Redeye, you have gained your knowledge of Fracking from the New York Times and a bunch of websites (most of which is complete crap and devoid of any independent scientific verification), so I will defer to you from here forward. Clearly, nothing anyone says here will change your mind.

There's pretty much no such thing as "independent scientific verification that would be acceptable to either party, I suspect. I don't know of much "fracking isn't destructive" study work, but it would almost assuredly be easy to trace who paid for it to industry groups - and likely the reverse is true. There is, as I said, enough out there that suggests that there's major problems with the technology, which is enough for me to be opposed until more work on mitigation becomes clear.
 
There is, as I said, enough out there that suggests that there's major problems with the technology,

Says you.

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.

 
Redeye is getting close to what I think is the truth or near truth: not much of the "evidence" available on either side of almost any environmental question is "good." The companies employ skilled PR firms to make their case - emphasizing the benefits and hiding or, at least, camouflaging the risks. But so do the greenies, who are also both "big businesses" in their own right and employers of skilled PR agencies. Worse, from my point of view, the environmentalists get a free ride because we (almost) all agree that they are well intentioned and, by and large, nice people. What we forget is that:

1. There are a lot of reputable scientists in the environmental movement;
2. There are about as many reputable scientists working for the big, bad, dirty oil industry;
3. There are also a lot of self serving scientists charlatans, many with PhDs and their own TV shows in the environmental movement;
4. The media, like most Canadians, are unable to distinguish between the hard working, concerned, reputable scientists and the charlatans; and
5. Given that some of the charlatans are media celebrities their views get pretty uncritical acceptance.

The end result is that most of us are, honestly, concerned because we have been, often dishonestly, misinformed.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
Redeye is getting close to what I think is the truth or near truth: not much of the "evidence" available on either side of almost any environmental question is "good." The companies employ skilled PR firms to make their case - emphasizing the benefits and hiding or, at least, camouflaging the risks. But so do the greenies, who are also both "big businesses" in their own right and employers of skilled PR agencies. Worse, from my point of view, the environmentalists get a free ride because we (almost) all agree that they are well intentioned and, by and large, nice people. What we forget is that:

1. There are a lot of reputable scientists in the environmental movement;
2. There are about as many reputable scientists working for the big, bad, dirty oil industry;
3. There are also a lot of self serving scientists charlatans, many with PhDs and their own TV shows in the environmental movement;
4. The media, like most Canadians, are unable to distinguish between the hard working, concerned, reputable scientists and the charlatans; and
5. Given that some of the charlatans are media celebrities their views get pretty uncritical acceptance.

The end result is that most of us are, honestly, concerned because we have been, often dishonestly, misinformed.

That's basically what I was getting at, yes. There's a lot of science out there to try to pore over and it's not easy to get a clear picture without reading a lot. There are plenty of charlatans, and that way that research is funded is designed very carefully to obscure who is interested in the message of any particular study. Thus I find myself as you say concerned because I know that the clearly broadcast messages are not necessarily being presented fairly or honestly.

Is the oil and gas industry manifestly bad? No, not in my opinion. There's lots of people who work in those industries looking to preserve the environment as best as possible, and of course we have to balance the desire for a completely pristine environment with our need for fuel, and the myriad of other products dependent on petroleum and gas. When you really start to look at everything that ultimately comes from that industry, it becomes clear to me why we have to use those resources wisely. I want to see more innovation to use the products more efficiently and to get them more efficiently, protecting things like drinking water and so on.

 
But what it appears, to me anyway, that you are ignoring, Redeye is that some (many, actually) people in the environmental movement have an intense anti-capitalist, anti-development agenda. Their concern is not a pristine environment, it is the destruction of our capitalist system and the introduction of something else.

I'll also repeat my contention that most of the greenies want to deny a billion plus poor Asians the sort of lower middle class life that we have taken for granted since about 1920 ... they are in the "I'm all right, Jack" mode and they are happy to not share resources with those who need them to move from grinding, human powered poverty to something better ... and motorized.

 
E.R. Campbell said:
But what it appears, to me anyway, that you are ignoring, Redeye is that some (many, actually) people in the environmental movement have an intense anti-capitalist, anti-development agenda. Their concern is not a pristine environment, it is the destruction of our capitalist system and the introduction of something else.

No, I'm well aware of them. While they get to the forefront (often so they can be best positioned as "the opponent" to development or so as to be seen as speaking for all people concerned about the environment or sustainability), they're not the majority of people who have an interest in the issues I don't think. They're basically a form of strawmen. There's plenty of people extremely concerned about environmental issues who want to find a good balance.

E.R. Campbell said:
I'll also repeat my contention that most of the greenies want to deny a billion plus poor Asians the sort of lower middle class life that we have taken for granted since about 1920 ... they are in the "I'm all right, Jack" mode and they are happy to not share resources with those who need them to move from grinding, human powered poverty to something better ... and motorized.

That's not how I see things - part of the reason I'd love for more innovation to happen here is to make it available to all - to allow those "poor Asians" to skip a few generations of bad technology. They have an advantage in that sense that they don't need to follow the same development track (with its associated mistakes/inefficiencies). To put that in better context, or try to illustrate what I mean, look at telecommunications in the developing world - entire generations of technology like landlines have been skipped because there was no need to waste time, money, and resources when you can go straight to the cutting edge. No reason those "poor Asians" can't be helped to do the same.

A common fallacious argument about trying to reduce greenhouse gas emissions for example is that China and/or India will simply ignore any demands on them and that'll render any improvements we make moot. There's no reason to believe that if they have the ability to get access (or themselves develop, which I'm certain they'll do a lot of) technologies that efficiently meet the goals we are going for. As I understand it, for example, China is finally starting to acknowledge that air quality is a major problem in certain areas and actually working to improve it - just reporting it is a start, and I read recently about how the reporting of air quality is being improved to more clearly monitor things like particulate matter etc. That may well lead to public interest and then demand to do better.
 
Redeye said:
... I'd love for more innovation to happen here is to make it available to all - to allow those "poor Asians" to skip a few generations of bad technology. They have an advantage in that sense that they don't need to follow the same development track (with its associated mistakes/inefficiencies). To put that in better context, or try to illustrate what I mean, look at telecommunications in the developing world - entire generations of technology like landlines have been skipped because there was no need to waste time, money, and resources when you can go straight to the cutting edge. No reason those "poor Asians" can't be helped to do the same.

A common fallacious argument about trying to reduce greenhouse gas emissions for example is that China and/or India will simply ignore any demands on them and that'll render any improvements we make moot. There's no reason to believe that if they have the ability to get access (or themselves develop, which I'm certain they'll do a lot of) technologies that efficiently meet the goals we are going for. As I understand it, for example, China is finally starting to acknowledge that air quality is a major problem in certain areas and actually working to improve it - just reporting it is a start, and I read recently about how the reporting of air quality is being improved to more clearly monitor things like particulate matter etc. That may well lead to public interest and then demand to do better.


But right now, this year, hundreds of millions of families live off the productivity of the "beast of burden" in the picture below, which I took a little over a year ago. Innovation is great, and it will come ... but he wants to and can increase his productivity right now if, as I said before, he can progress - and it IS progress - from human power to motorized or electrical power. (Bearing in mind that most electrical power in China is generated in coal fired plants.)

China is interested in its environment - the Chinese do want to clean the air and water; but they also want to move from poverty to something better and they are not inclined to wait until a green technology is available. I have lived in some pretty poor places. The wretchedly poor people I have met, Africans, Arabs, Asians and others, are pretty much exactly like us - smart and dumb in the exact same ratios, honest and venal, just like us, brave and cowardly, like all the rest of humanity. And like all the rest of humanity, I cannot recall one one single Chinese person who thought that your environmentalism trumped his right to improve his lot in life ... the fellow in the picture is tired of waiting.

 
Sadly, many of the actual tchnologies that do exist are blocked or severely hamperd in the West. Nuclear power is virtually impossible to install, new generations of oil refining technologies are limited to the opposition to building new oil refineries and so on.

Foe the Chinese, this isn't as much of an issue, they are starting to build nuclear powerplants on a very large scale, but poorer nations either cannot afford nuclear energy, or are limited to older generations of design which are generally less efficient and less safe. (Anyone who is shopping for Russian nuclear reactors is literally playing with fire).

This is doubly bad, *we* don't get the benefit of cleaner, more efficient electricity or oil, nor are we developing high tech/high value industries that we can market to nations that need these products (a win/win proposition). As noted, the underlying thrust of the "Green" movement (which I will separate fron the environmental movement) is the opposition to capitalist and technological civilization. (Having been imersed in the field environment for most of my professional life, I do support the preservation and upkeep of the environment, but I do not believe for a moment that the methods advocated by the Greens are the way to do this).
 
Instead of frakking how do you feel about throwing some bugs down Sidney Mines or some of the old Spring Hill shafts and let them produce Methane - aka Biogas (good) or Natural gas (bad).

http://eem.jacksonkelly.com/2011/05/bioconversion-of-in-situ-coal-to-methane-microbes-used-to-convert-coal-to-gaseous-fuel.html

I am sure it would work equally well with Chinese speaking bugs.

New, and old, technologies come in all shapes and sizes.
 
Now that is interesting indeed!

Kirkhill said:
Instead of frakking how do you feel about throwing some bugs down Sidney Mines or some of the old Spring Hill shafts and let them produce Methane - aka Biogas (good) or Natural gas (bad).

http://eem.jacksonkelly.com/2011/05/bioconversion-of-in-situ-coal-to-methane-microbes-used-to-convert-coal-to-gaseous-fuel.html

I am sure it would work equally well with Chinese speaking bugs.

New, and old, technologies come in all shapes and sizes.
 
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