• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Making Canada Relevant Again- The Economic Super-Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
a_majoor said:
One day a real crisis will overstress the brittle, overcentralized structures that have been erected by multiple levels of government, and who knows what will happen in the chaos that follows?

As an aside Majoor. By that last statement, it makes me wonder why then that you didn't like my suggested idea of further downloading certain government responsibilities to the level of municipalities on another thread? It would de-centralized government quite a bit.

As for the other statements above. It would be nice if the UN could do such things as "getting balls". But the big boys on the security council don't want that to happen, as it would spoil their fun in taking advantage of cheap labour and places to test their new military toys. Until that happens, I guess it will just have to be the monetary black hole of the world.
 
Before this thread turns into a socialist venting forum,

Please keep in mind that the prosperity that we enjoy, and the military equipment that we have are as a result of those damn "big boys".

We are them and they are us, Canada and Canadians are not on this moral high ground that the US cannot seem to reach. The clothes you are wearing were made in a sweatshop in asia, your computer parts are from Taiwan, and most of the parts of your newer domstic vehicle are from China.

The first world relies upon the oppression of the third for supplies of labour and raw materials. To suggest that this is somehow the exclusive domain of the members of the UN security council is to deny the source of our wealth and bury our heads in the sand.
 
Agreed. We're as guilty as they are in the fact that we feed at the same trough that they created. No argument there.

I'm just saying that until they (as world leaders) decide to do things differently, things will not change significantly.

Yes, were a part of the G-8 and thus "leaders". But everyone knows just how seriously we're taken on the world stage when we don't have the military to back up the money.

What did MacKenzie call us back in the day? A "middle" power? Whatever the hell that means.

And the rich and famous get richer, while spouting empty platitudes.
 
Zipper said:
As an aside Majoor. By that last statement, it makes me wonder why then that you didn't like my suggested idea of further downloading certain government responsibilities to the level of municipalities on another thread? It would de-centralized government quite a bit.

By Downloading, we now have to pay @ $352 million dollars out of a budget of $800 million dollars in the City of London; 44% of our tax load is handed to us in the form of Provincial downloads. Oddly enough, I don't recall seeing Dalton McGuinty's name on the municipal ballot, nor Mr Dithers. Essentially, downloading is just another way of removing accountability and decreasing the flexibility of local Governments. What is really needed is "unloading" (which is the bulk of my proposed platform BTW).

As regular readers are aware, I have no sympathy/empathy or whatever for compelling taxpayers to support people, business, industry etc. that they do not support in the market place. By pulling the rug out from corporate welfare, at least in the London area, I believe that it will be possible to realize at least $100 million dollars in spending cuts, or about a 10% tax cut for London property taxes. Imagine being able to have an entire Adscam worth of money in the local economy for personal saving, spending, investment and so on. As an aside, the costs associated with terminating unneeded city employees, winding up existing contracts etc. is the reason I cannot realistically propose a $200 or 300 million dollar spending cut. In the follow on budgets, spending and taxes will gradually fall).

As for making Canada relevant again, carrying out this sort of disentanglement across the entire municipal spectrum would free billions of dollars across Canada, giving a burst of economic activity centred on the local governments that could cut the most efficiently. More economic growth would of course provide a better standard of living, and create the resources to start taking on bigger projects, and give companies the means to compete on the world stage.

My long term hope is that if this municipal disentanglement movement takes flight, an entire new generation of politicians who are for spending cuts and restraint will begin to make their mark in the Provincial and Federal arenas, creating bigger virtuous circles and allowing Canada to grow to her true potential.
 
a_majoor said:
By Downloading, we now have to pay @ $352 million dollars out of a budget of $800 million dollars in the City of London; 44% of our tax load is handed to us in the form of Provincial downloads. Oddly enough, I don't recall seeing Dalton McGuinty's name on the municipal ballot, nor Mr Dithers. Essentially, downloading is just another way of removing accountability and decreasing the flexibility of local Governments. What is really needed is "unloading" (which is the bulk of my proposed platform BTW).

Ah but here is the kicker in my (actually alot of peoples that I agree with) idea. It would require a change in our constitution, but if it happened, it would allow municipalities to collect taxes off their population bases directly instead of having the federal or provincial levels doing so. Thus the money stays at the level that really needs it and you don't end up paying three levels of government before seeing your 10 cents on the dollar. Thus you not only download some of the responsibility from levels of government far removed from the issue, but you also have the money right there to use. 1 to 2 levels of bureaucracy instead of the x amount you have now, as well as shrinking all the useless ministries (if not getting rid of them entirely) above. Money more effectively spent on the level that needs it and able to cut taxes as well since your not filling the pockets of various inter-levels.

Its just getting those other levels of government to actually give up the taxes (power) in order to make it happen.
 
Zipper said:
Ah but here is the kicker in my (actually alot of peoples that I agree with) idea. It would require a change in our constitution, but if it happened, it would allow municipalities to collect taxes off their population bases directly instead of having the federal or provincial levels doing so. Thus the money stays at the level that really needs it and you don't end up paying three levels of government before seeing your 10 cents on the dollar. Thus you not only download some of the responsibility from levels of government far removed from the issue, but you also have the money right there to use. 1 to 2 levels of bureaucracy instead of the x amount you have now, as well as shrinking all the useless ministries (if not getting rid of them entirely) above. Money more effectively spent on the level that needs it and able to cut taxes as well since your not filling the pockets of various inter-levels.

Its just getting those other levels of government to actually give up the taxes (power) in order to make it happen.

Well, you just demonstrated why this has to be a self help project;

Changing the Canadian Constitution is virtually impossible both by accident and design, and;

Getting Mr McGuinty and Mr Dither's out of our pockets without an armed revolution seems beyond the capabilities of many voters.

There is a more fundimental reason to go this route as well; property taxes, as the name would indicate, are for the protection of property. City governments do not need to support hockey teams, arts festivals, multi-mational corporations looking for a new place to build a factory and so on (in fact, NO level of government should do these things). It is enough for the municipalities to ensure all citizens have access to the Police Force, Fire and Emergency services. I am not such a doctrinaire Libertarian as to suggest road and sewer work is the responsibility of private property owners, but I won't go much beyond that...
 
>it would spoil their fun in taking advantage of cheap labour

Do you suppose the cheap labour is forced to work?  Have you ever stopped to think about what the alternative was to working long hours for little pay, possibly in a hazardous workplace?  Do you realize the alternatives can in fact be _worse_?
 
Hey I can dream can't I? Its not like we're not throwing ideas to the wind around here? Most OF THE ideas around here are not going to go much further then this forum as it is, but its still nice to field the ideas. And if hell froze over, I think it would work better then what we have now.

Brad Sallows said:
Do you suppose the cheap labour is forced to work?   Have you ever stopped to think about what the alternative was to working long hours for little pay, possibly in a hazardous workplace?   Do you realize the alternatives can in fact be _worse_?

Agreed. Its better (barely) then prostitution and other such enendeavoursI guess what is hard for us (westerners) is the fact that we're seeing these countries go through working conditions we haven't seen since the 1800's. We would like to see everything, "poof", be like us.
 
GO!!! said:
Before this thread turns into a socialist venting forum,

Please keep in mind that the prosperity that we enjoy, and the military equipment that we have are as a result of those darn "big boys".

We are them and they are us, Canada and Canadians are not on this moral high ground that the US cannot seem to reach. The clothes you are wearing were made in a sweatshop in asia, your computer parts are from Taiwan, and most of the parts of your newer domstic vehicle are from China.

The first world relies upon the oppression of the third for supplies of labour and raw materials. To suggest that this is somehow the exclusive domain of the members of the UN security council is to deny the source of our wealth and bury our heads in the sand.

This has been a recent development.  Up until at least the mid-70's North America and Europe were relatively self-sufficient (and were plenty prosperous considering that in many cases only one parent needed to work).  Globalization has forced the developed world to compete with the undeveloped world (who obviously want to become developed) which has driven down wages, forced both parents to work in most cases and left those with lower incomes, and less job security dependent upon goods provided by nations who are responsible in part for their new lowered standard of living.

That all being said, my biggest complaint about globalization is the lack of political foresight in regards to the PRC.  The fact that I believe it is nearly $70 billion in foreign direct investment goes into the PRC each year from the United States, Canada and Europe is baffling to me.  In essence, we are funding the newest manufacturing infrasture in a nation that uses its trade surpluses (due to our baffling allowance of their goods into our country) to undermine the West at every opportunity.  Specifically, if you look up "dictator" or "ethnic cleansing" and then look for "largest trading partner", you'll usually find "China" at the top of the list.  Worse, is they're now using that bankroll (now over $700 billion USD in foreign currency reserves) to export a new form of totalitarian socialism (much like the Saudis exported Wahhabiism) around the world.  Zimbabwe, Sudan, all the Central Asian members of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, Venezuela, Cuba....and now they're pushing into make inroads in Central in South America. 

I've been on record for at least two years now that the PRC will emerge to become nearly as large a threat as the Soviet Union ever was, it will have been funded not by internal growth, but by the intentional exportation of wealth by myopic politicians, greedy businessmen and ignorant consumers.  In short, this last decade will be looked back upon as one of the short-sighted in our histories....

Rant over....


Matthew.  :salute:
 
Blackshirt,

A quick peruse of colonial history will soon convince you that Europe has not been self sufficient since the early 1500's. The colonial powers built their empires based on the need for certain raw materials at economical prices. Initially, these were restricted to luxury items (tea, sugar, whale baleen for dresses etc.)

The very exploratory drive that led to the discovery of North America was driven by a scarcity of many staples in europe.

Once the potential of offshore resources became common knowledge, it was only a matter of time before the europeans began to exploit them with the help (willing or coerced) of the locals. England has fed itself on Newfoundland fish for 200 years!

Further examples of europes lack of self sufficiency even in the pre-industrial revolution period can be found in the slave trade and the importing of rice from asia, and lentils and grain from Russia.

The fact that only one parent was working in the 70s was not due to "prosperity" it was due to a lower standard of living (both in real and today's dollars) the cheap resources that existed (2$ a barrel oil) and the fact that most women were not trained, encouraged or inclined to enter the workforce.

In addition to this, trying to make China the new Soviet Union will not bring the Cold War back, no matter how hard you try. While the concerns over China's distortions of the global economy are valid, the idea that they are building a global empire are not. China has said from the beginning that it is bent on recovering its "lost territories" These include Tibet, Macau,Taiwan, Hong Kong and the Ryu Kyu islands, in addition to rights over the shimsen strait. While you may call this "expansionism" they are really only trying to recapture lands lost during the colonial era.

The exporting of socialism is no more problematic than the exporting of capitalism, since we have established, numerous times, that both are ineffective at meeting the basic needs of the populations that they rule.

Globalisation is a good thing because it is an equaliser, in that it assigns a value to everything, and thus a worth. While a government may not be able to protect say, a forest, a private corporation sure can, and will, to protect it's investment.
 
Europe has been self-sufficient since the 1500s.  There is a difference between what is needed and what is wanted.  Exotic goods were desirable, not necessary.  I am unaware of any large scale slave trade in Europe since the collapse of the Roman Empire.

"China has said from the beginning..."

Taking their word for their intentions, eh?  Have you ever heard the admonition about not accepting what your competitor offers you?

>The exporting of socialism is no more problematic than the exporting of capitalism, since we have established, numerous times, that both are ineffective at meeting the basic needs of the populations that they rule.

Where have reasonably free markets ever failed to meet the basic needs of people?

Globalization doesn't assign value.  People assign values.  That's why statist systems and decision cycles are inherently inferior.  You can't force someone to accept that one hour of a liberal arts graduate's time working as a consultant for government is worth more than a pound of strawberries if what the person wants in the first place is a pound of strawberries.
 
Brad Sallows said:
You can't force someone to accept that one hour of a liberal arts graduate's time working as a consultant for government is worth more than a pound of strawberries if what the person wants in the first place is a pound of strawberries.

Yes, but at least a liberal arts student doesn't leave a red stain on your shirt.

Uh...

Ok maybe in your case Brad, they do. ;D
 
in addition to rights over the shimsen strait

I don't have anything to add here, but where is the "Shimsen strait"? I've tried Google and Wikipedia and I cannot seem to find any mention of this place.  Also you are mistaken about the Ryu Kyu Islands. While they were once part of the Chinese empire neither the current Chinese goverment or the goverment in exile in Taiwan has ever made a claim on Okinawa. You see,the Okinawans are not Chinese and never have been, it's on the other(eastern) side of Japan, and the only things of any value there are drunken American Marines.....

Agree with you on most of the other stuff about China though :)

EDIT: oops, said west when I meant east.
 
From Old Europe, more economic bad news. It looks depressingly familier, since our governments adhere to the same formulas....

Merkel's Messy Manifesto
Germans shouldn't expect much in the way of post-election tax relief.

Don't expect a supply-side transformation of the German economy even if, as predicted, the Christian Democrats, led by Angela Merkel, win the coming general election. Indeed, where else but in Old Europe could the purported "conservativeâ ? political party launch an election campaign by proposing to raise taxes? As one observer quipped, "We shouldn't be talking about Maggie Merkel just yet.â ?

Germans are due to go to the polls Sept. 18, a year ahead of schedule. With a commanding 20-point lead in voter surveys, the Christian Democrats are odds-on favorites to form the next government, which would make Merkel Germany's first female chancellor. A physicist by training, Merkel gained notoriety during her party's slush-fund scandal of the late 1990s when she became the first cabinet member to break with Chancellor Helmut Kohl, her political patron. She was named head of the Christian Democratic Union (CDU) in April 2000.

Adhering to the politics of austerity and unwilling to dismantle a century-old, cradle-to-grave welfare state, Merkel's newly published campaign "manifestoâ ? puts fiscal concerns ahead of economic ones. Curbing the budget deficit through tax increases is preferred to stimulating the economy via tax cuts. Thus, while stressing the need for job creation, a 2-point hike in the value-added tax (VAT) to 18 percent is the focal point of Merkel's campaign.

German politico-economic thinking clearly is mired in static analysis, with too much emphasis on such considerations as government debt and budget deficits and too little stress on business creation and capital spending.

General government debt reached a post-unification high of 66 percent of GDP last year, while government budget deficits have been running at 3.7 percent to 3.8 percent of GDP for the past three years (compared with a 1991-2000 average of 2.3 percent) in violation of EU rules limiting deficits to no more than 3 percent of GDP. The experience of Britain and the U.S. over the past 25 years indicate that tax cuts would soon fill the Germany's fiscal coffers through the mechanism of incentive-based growth in personal and corporate incomes, yet these supply-side lessons seem lost on Merkel and friends.

With economic policymaking taking a back seat to budgetary bookkeeping, German taxpayers shouldn't expect too much in the way of post-election income-tax relief. Merkel's manifesto tellingly fails to reiterate an earlier CDU pledge to trim the top marginal income-tax rate from 42 percent to 39 percent. Instead, using a pay-as-you-go formula better suited to household budgets than governmental ones, Merkel, as chancellor, intends to offset any income-tax cut by eliminating existing tax breaks. The result would likely be little or no net change in Germany's crippling income-tax burden.

Merkel also plans to renege, at least partially, on an agreement reached with Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder in April to trim the corporate tax rate from 25 percent to 19 percent. She now proposes to cut the rate by only 3 percentage points to 22 percent. She advocates closing tax loopholes in order to make the rate reduction revenue neutral, meaning corporations wouldn't get much if any net tax relief. Merkel further wants to reintroduce capital-gains taxation on the sale of certain corporate shareholdings, albeit at a lower rate than before.

The manifesto's few encouraging proposals would reduce the cost of unemployment insurance for both employees and employers, with the aim of making it less costly for businesses to hire new workers. Other reforms would make it easier for businesses to fire workers, who are now virtually immune from dismissal. The reforms further would allow companies to opt out of binding national wage agreements meted out between various industry representatives and unions.

German workers are among the world's most expensive. According to a recent OECD study, the average German manufacturing worker's marginal tax rate, including income and social security taxes, is a whopping 40.5 percent. Adding the employer's social security contributions brings the marginal rate up to 50.7 percent for the average German manufacturing wage earner with no dependents. It's small wonder, then, that unemployment is nearing the five-million mark.

Numerous polls show a decided lack of confidence among consumers and businesses. Consumer confidence, by some measures, has been in negative territory since June 2001. Business and economic confidence, too, have sagged. The National Institute of Research's IFO Business Climate Index generally has been edging downward since January 2004, as has the Centre for European Economic Research's ZEW Indicator of Economic Sentiment.

None of this bodes well, of course, for Schroeder and his fellow Social Democrats. Nevertheless, were his party to win in September, Schroeder has pledged to hike the top marginal income tax rate from 42 percent to 45 percent while, at the same time, increasing subsidies and transfer payments. Most notably, he wants to raise the Elterngeld subsidy to an entire year's salary for parents who leave work and stay home to look after newborns.

Sadly, neither of Germany's leading political parties is attacking the economy's main problem - i.e., anemic private capital investment. Real gross fixed capital formation in Germany in 1992-2004 rose as much as 9.8 percent year-on-year but also fell as much as 9.6 percent. The changes in real capital investment throughout the period actually averaged a negative 0.03 percent. Real year-to-year GDP growth during the same 13-year span consequently averaged a mere 1.2 percent.

Fixed investment per German worker in the 2005 first quarter was a miserly €2,405 (or about $2,900), almost unchanged from a quarter earlier and down about 1 percent from a year earlier. Per-worker investment was roughly 15 percent below the €2,844 peak reached in the 2001 opening quarter.

Germany's massive governmental claims on the economy, largely to finance its behemoth welfare state, contribute mightily to this debilitating capital expenditure shortfall. In post-unification Germany, total public-sector receipts have been equivalent to 44 percent, on average, of nominal GDP and 45 percent of national income, while the central government's receipts alone have averaged 27 percent of GDP. By contrast, during the same 1991-2004 period, all U.S. government receipts, including federal, state, and local, averaged 30 percent of GDP and U.S. federal government current receipts alone averaged 19 percent of GDP.

The German private sector needs breathing room if the economy is ever to revive substantially. And that primarily means reducing the government's onerous tax take and the public sector's sizeable claims on the economy. Frau Merkel might take a cue from her eastern neighbors and propose, among other things, a low, flat tax on incomes.

- William P. Kucewicz is editor of GeoInvestor.com and a former editorial board member of the Wall Street Journal.
 
http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_kucewicz/kucewicz200507210902.asp

 
OK everyone, thinking caps on -- it's quiz time.

why did toyota decide this month to locate its RAV4 plant in Ontario, refusing multimillion dollar subsidy offers to locate in southern US states?

i am already tingling with anticipation at the brilliant displays of logical contortionism i have come to expect from this thread...
 
since i currently work for an auto factory (chrysler of brampton) i can tell you... according to a recent study done by GMC the average canadian auto factory worker makes 8.50$ more an hour then the average american auto factory worker, But due to americas health care policies, the cost of each car plus what  that must be added to the price to cover any insurance is 1500$ per car in america, and only a stunning 150$ in canada...  so, although we cost more money to work, we are a hell of alot cheaper overall due to our health care and that means toyota can sell their cars at less money generating more sales... or at the same price with that much more profit. just my 2 cents. i could be very wrong.
 
In other words the Ontario taxpayer - via the health care system - is subsidizing Toyota to far greater extent than anything dreamed of in the Southern US. (Not to mention the continued currency differential).

Cheers, mdh
 
dragoon: what i meant by being wrong is not what i said about us being cheaper with health care and stuff, i meant they could have a different reason other then this... but in light of this and wanting to back myself up, i will look for the link in which i based my claim.

yeah basically because we have better health care it is cheaper to employ us to build cars but hey, it does mean that much more of a boost to our economy, for us to build the care, we need plants that build the individual parts, places that make the leather and sets and roofs , then ship to a common place where the entire seat set is built and assembled and then shipped to the actual car factory where it is installed into the frame... for instance, when Chrysler of Brampton started its third shift (January this year) Chrysler itself hired like 2000-3000 new people for that one shift, and then all of its suppliers also had to hire enough to staff to fill a new shift of theirs.. its a massive economy boost and we should welcome it, even if its exploiting our cheaper costs.

dont be surprised if japan starts contracts with Canada when their current ones run out in America.

 
sorry still havent been able to find the auto link i was looking for, ill look when i wake back up..


not the link i wanted but i found this


http://www.canada.com/businesscentre/story.html?id=407a49e3-3b0c-43ee-a93e-a3d0b770522d


so if america wont let them buy into their country, they might buy into ours and that would be a nice chunk of extra change as the article states "foreign exchange reserves of over $711 billion China could conceivably buy almost half of the Dow 30 companies or nearly the entire TSX 60" i doubt we would let them buy that much though... but damn that chunk of change... too bad their commies.

and america seems to be buying extra items off us such as rail cars for their subways... at 425 million$ US


http://www.canada.com/news/business/story.html?id=0170906c-bd0d-4d97-a01d-b436660df7af


 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top