Making Canada Relevant Again- The Economic Super-Thread

[PPCLI Guy]

Have a look at this article from the New York Times that was reprinted in the International Herald Tribune:

http://www.iht.com/articles/541155.html

David Bercusson wrote that there is a the national malaise that is making Canada a second-rate, uncompetitive nation, and that "(i)t is the very spirit of the nation and the sickness that now has hold of it that is at fault."   Michael Bliss added that "I'm in almost total despair. You have a country, but what is it for and what is it doing?"

Are we really that bad?   Does this slice of the intelligentsia speak for the nation, or is it just that they happen to be the flavour of the month?

It strikes me, that much as is suggested in the article, we as a nation go through cycles of self-loathing - and not always deservedly.

Perhaps Jeffery Simpson had it right: In an interview, Simpson said that while this was not a particularly bleak time for general population, pained intellectual musings are not that surprising or unexpected for a country "that has never had a defining national myth," like the American Revolution or the Civil War.


.

 

[ackland]

IMHO i thnk one of the key points that was briefly mentioned is part f the problem. Pre Trudeau we seemed to be a nation. With all the oppening up of immigration from 3rd world counties we lost alot of our britishness. I'm not blaming imigrants for our countries state. I am saying that with alot of those people coming form war torn countries or countries that were very stricked and military like they now fear the  military and are leary of a strong military pressence at home or abroad.

The other point I take issue with is the "that has never had a defining national myth," like the American Revolution or the Civil War.

Do we as a nation need some drastic war to live off of  to gain a national identity? Perhaps I missunderstand. If he says that this will help us lets invade Quebec and have our own civil war perhaps that will help.

 

[Brad Sallows]

"What is it for and what is it doing" is a very good question.

I frankly have no respect for a nation that obsesses over and defines itself by its health care coverage.  From where I sit on the political map, it appears that Canadians want freedom without responsibility.  If the electorate would force the federal government to concentrate on matters of state and quit interfering in the matters of lower jurisdictions I would be happier.

 

[Torlyn]

Aside from some glaring contradictions in the article (well reknowned authors?  In their circles, perhaps) I think this is just another attempt at America picking on its northern brother.  No defining national myth?  Try the war of 1812, if the Yanks are looking for a myth...

There is a Chinese proverb and curse, "may you live in interesting times".  Let's think on that for a moment.  Maybe this current wilting that the americans are talking about is something along those lines.  Just because we don't bounce from war to war, foreign policy to foreign policy like a drunken sailor ashore for the first time in a year, doesn't mean we're declining.  IMHO, we're doing quite well, thank you.  Why panic and create problems where none truly exist?  Sure we need more money in our military, and a stronger global presence, but we are working on these.  (Cynicism aside, please.  Let's pray that PM PM holds true to his words)

To TR:
A lot of our immigration policy is perhaps in response to Canada's deplorable, racist and anti-semetic policies during the 1920's-40's.  One of the things that (to me, anyway) defines Canada, and makes us better than other nations, is our ability and willingness to allow for immigration to occur.  The complaint that it takes away our Canadian heritage is a farce.  I am perfectly capable of maintaining my Canadian heritage while allowing for non-WASP's to immigrate to this country.  Keep in mind as well the "non-britishers" are still the minority in Canada, and cannot be blamed for a dislike of the military...  I wonder if there are any stats on minority's feelings/opinions towards the military...  Hmm..  Off to look. 

T

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Bercuson is a well known military author, however, he is a Labour Historian and never served in the military.  That doesn't invalidate him from having an opinion.  His books range from mediocre to good.  Significant Incident was good, I thought, but don't know much about Somalia - his history of the militayr in Canada that was in that volume seemed good.  His regimental history of the Calgary Highlanders was adequate, and did cover ground not covered in Farran's earlier softball look at the subject.

His book on Korea was not as good, and I understant the Patricias were unhappy with his history of that regiment also?

I studied at the U of C when Bercuson was head of the history dept (IIRC) but never had him as a prof.  I've talked to him only once, at a gun show a couple years back when I was in uniform - he didn't expect to be recognized.  

He's as qualified as anyone to have an opinion and probably more qualified than most, but I don't give his opinion the same credence I would to say, Lew Mackenzie or even Jack Granatstein.  Others may feel differently.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

As for defining national myths, look no further than the Militia Myth - the belief that in times of crisis, we can simply throw together all our best backwoodsmen, brawlers, hockey netminders and lumberjacks and instantly create a multi-division field army that can beat the best the enemy has to offer.    We didn't really fight WW I and WW II that way, but most people like to think we did.  

Vimy Ridge was taken by a professional army with three years of training and battle experience - hard learned lessons, many dead soldiers, lots of costly mistakes, but in the end a technologically adaptable Army that learned those hard lessons well.   Pierre Burton would have us believe they were all railroadsmen, trappers, hunters and fishermen who took Vimy Ridge on a dare.

It's a pretty dangerous myth as far as myths go, cause the government today just might believe the myth.

 

[Torlyn]

Michael,

  Well said on both.  There's a book, Bastards and Boneheads by Will Ferguson that goes in to some of those myths.  I'll have to see if my library has Bercuson in.  Suppose I can pop back to my alma mater and get his book there as well. 

T

 

[Cloud Cover]

As for defining national myths,

Vimy Ridge was taken by a professional army with three years of training and battle experience - hard learned lessons, many dead soldiers, lots of costly mistakes, but in the end a technologically adaptable Army that learned those hard lessons well.   Pierre Burton would have us believe they were all railroadsmen, trappers, hunters and fishermen who took Vimy Ridge on a dare.

It's a pretty dangerous myth as far as myths go, cause the government today just might believe the myth.

What I observed as a late bloomer going into university was that Vimy Ridge was never, ever mentioned as a defining moment in Canadian history. The overwhleming tide of revisionist academics who currently dominate universities and governemnt prefer to see the hanging of Louis Riel, the sacrifices made on the   home front for imperialist wars, foreign minister Lester Pearson, the Quiet Revolution, Trudeaumania, the October crisis, the Anti-Inflation Act, the Election of the PQ and the sovereignty referdum, the Charter and Meech Lake, FTA and NAFTA, the Somalia Affair,the 1995   budget spelling the so-called end of the welfare state twinned with the common sense revolution, and finally the Romanow commission were defining moments in Canadian history. But Vimy Ridge, Dieppe, Ortona, BCATP, Battle of the Altlantic .... these were not defining moments because Canadians are not a warrior nation, we are a peacekeeping nation who cherish social values over needless militarism. After all, none of our so-called enemies were a threat to us, because we never did anything to provoke them in the first place.

How's that for a myth?

 

[PPCLI Guy]

I think this is just another attempt at America picking on its northern brother... Maybe this current wilting that the americans are talking about is something along those lines.  Just because we don't bounce from war to war, foreign policy to foreign policy like a drunken sailor ashore for the first time in a year, doesn't mean we're declining.  IMHO, we're doing quite well, thank you. 

The source of the article (the US) is less important than the sources in the article.  I think that you may be following a false thread there.  The sources IN the article are all Canadian commentators

Why panic and create problems where none truly exist?  Sure we need more money in our military, and a stronger global presence, but we are working on these.  (Cynicism aside, please.  Let's pray that PM PM holds true to his words)

I am quite happy to give the man (and the "administration") a chance to walk the walk - Lord knows he can talk the talk...

 

[Gunnar]

Freedom without responsibility.  That's probably a good definition.  No defining national myth....well, we have them, but we don't teach them any more.  It might step on somebody's expression of their ethnicity.  Talk to a recent highschool graduate of today, and ask them about basic, Canadian things...

Who was Robert Service?
What was Vimy?  Dieppe?
Who were the Zombies?
What is the purpose of the Governor General?
When was the War Measures Act invoked in peace time?  By whom?  Why?
Spell the following:  Honour, Colour, Labour, Traveller....
What is the last letter of the alphabet?
Does Canada need an army?
Was Louis Riel a) a patriot b) a defender of minority rights c) a martyr d) a traitor who was rightfully hanged?
When did Newfoundland join Confederation?
Apart from shipbuilding, what major industry was Nova Scotia known for?
What was the Springhill disaster?
Where is Pile'o'bones, and what is it called today?
The writer of O Canada wrote it in which language?
Who's picture is on the 100 dollar bill?  Who was he?

Most of these are history questions, but if you have no pride in your history, how do you know what your country has stood for, and how can you say it still does?

Then, there's other questions:

What all-Canadian children's show replaced The Friendly Giant?  Mr. Dressup?
Name the top three Canadian TV shows.
Give a reason for watching TV channels in french, without resorting to a "I don't speak English" argument, e.g., like good shows that are worth watching or provoke dialogue (Francophones only).  Express those shows as a percentage of your TV watching experience.
What burning issues were discussed in Ottawa today?  Washington?  Which one made the news first?
Name three people on Ottawa's walk of fame.
Name an issue that galvanised all Canadians into instant action.  Do not make reference to hockey.


The electorate is barely aware we HAVE a country, much less motivated enough to force Ottawa to do ANYTHING.  Canada is the homeless shelter for the world, feeding everyone on our freedom, soup kitchens and medical care, but never insisting that they do anything to earn it, citizens included. 

Freedom?  Everyone loves us, why should we defend it?  Besides, the US is there.

Culture?  Oh, we don't have one.  We're a cultural mosaic.  Anything you believe is OK with us.  Even if your ideas are patently inimical to freedom.  That's OK.  We're tolerant.

Nationalism?  We don't want to impose on the world, do we?  Or put our interests ahead of another nations?  That's what the US does, they're bad.  'Cept when they're defending us...

Law and Order?  Sure, as long as we don't "profile" likely criminals, and treat 80 year old grandmas the same way as Hells Angels bikers...who knows what granny has in her handbag?

Border security?  Not in our ports.  We'll do random checks...after we disband the RCMP unit that showed widespread corruption on the waterfront.  Besides, everybody loves us.

Oh, we have a deficit, no armed forces to speak of, a Coast Guard in need of overhaul?  Yes, but forgiving debt to Third World Nations we should never have loaned money to in the first place is more important.  Doesn't anyone care about the people in Africa?  Remember, as Canadians we have to love everyone.

The country has no ideals, no beliefs, nothing to fight for or cherish and they wonder at the national malaise?  The Canadian identity is defined today more than ever as "not being American", while eating American food, watching American TV, and relying on American largesse.  How exactly are we different?  Well, we have health care....AND????

 

[PPCLI Guy]

"   If the electorate would force the federal government to concentrate on matters of state and quit interfering in the matters of lower jurisdictions I would be happier.

Sadly, that would imply that the electorate was aware of constitutional jurisdictions - which they are not.

 

[ackland]

To TR:
The complaint that it takes away our Canadian heritage is a farce.   I am perfectly capable of maintaining my Canadian heritage while allowing for non-WASP's to immigrate to this country.  

I never made that statement. I said british heritage. Which is being erroded. this country was fought for and won by the british. I'm not saying that immigration is bad or can only come from certain countries. I am from Ontario and am seeing alsorts of weird and disturbing things coming from the polations here that takes away from the traditions and heritage that came from our british brothers. IE the sharia's law now being investigated by the provincial liberals here. A muslim law that could allow for wife beating and other extremist islamic practices. Not that islam is bad as a whole. Just that whyt open a door for human rights violations here in a country that has always stood for ensuring people have them.

I don't fear change. I just don't like bad change. Which is where IMHO we are headed these days.

I don't even have a problem with our french county men. It has been appart of this country from the start and should remain.

 

[LowRider]

The electorate is barely aware we HAVE a country, much less motivated enough to force Ottawa to do ANYTHING.   Canada is the homeless shelter for the world, feeding everyone on our freedom, soup kitchens and medical care, but never insisting that they do anything to earn it, citizens included.  

Freedom?   Everyone loves us, why should we defend it?   Besides, the US is there.

Culture?   Oh, we don't have one.   We're a cultural mosaic.   Anything you believe is OK with us.   Even if your ideas are patently inimical to freedom.   That's OK.   We're tolerant.

Nationalism?   We don't want to impose on the world, do we?   Or put our interests ahead of another nations?   That's what the US does, they're bad.   'Cept when they're defending us...

Law and Order?   Sure, as long as we don't "profile" likely criminals, and treat 80 year old grandmas the same way as Hells Angels bikers...who knows what granny has in her handbag?

Border security?   Not in our ports.   We'll do random checks...after we disband the RCMP unit that showed widespread corruption on the waterfront.   Besides, everybody loves us.

Oh, we have a deficit, no armed forces to speak of, a Coast Guard in need of overhaul?   Yes, but forgiving debt to Third World Nations we should never have loaned money to in the first place is more important.   Doesn't anyone care about the people in Africa?   Remember, as Canadians we have to love everyone.

The country has no ideals, no beliefs, nothing to fight for or cherish and they wonder at the national malaise?    The Canadian identity is defined today more than ever as "not being American", while eating American food, watching American TV, and relying on American largesse.   How exactly are we different?   Well, we have health care....AND????

Great post,That is Canada to a tee!

 

[pbi]

I never made that statement. I said british heritage. Which is being erroded. this country was fought for and won by the british. I'm not saying that immigration is bad or can only come from certain countries. I am from Ontario and am seeing alsorts of weird and disturbing things coming from the polations here that takes away from the traditions and heritage that came from our british brothers. IE the sharia's law now being investigated by the provincial liberals here. A muslim law that could allow for wife beating and other extremist islamic practices. Not that islam is bad as a whole. Just that whyt open a door for human rights violations here in a country that has always stood for ensuring people have them.

I don't fear change. I just don't like bad change. Which is where IMHO we are headed these days.

I don't even have a problem with our french county men. It has been appart of this country from the start and should remain. 

This statement is a variation on the tired old sawhorse "we Anglos built this country and these damned furriners are rooin' it!" My question is, exactly when did we stop building Canada? Cheers.

 

[onecat]

"  If the electorate would force the federal government to concentrate on matters of state and quit interfering in the matters of lower jurisdictions I would be happier.

Not to change the topic too much... but where is this inferferring and just what is Federal jurisdiction to you? 

 

[PPCLI Guy]

"   If the electorate would force the federal government to concentrate on matters of state and quit interfering in the matters of lower jurisdictions I would be happier.

Not to change the topic too much... but where is this inferferring and just what is Federal jurisdiction to you?  

From the Constitution:

VI.    DISTRIBUTION OF LEGISLATIVE POWERS

   

POWERS OF THE PARLIAMENT

Legislative Authority of Parliament of Canada   91.   It shall be lawful for the Queen, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate and House of Commons, to make Laws for the Peace, Order, and good Government of Canada, in relation to all Matters not coming within the Classes of Subjects by this Act assigned exclusively to the Legislatures of the Provinces; and for greater Certainty, but not so as to restrict the Generality of the foregoing Terms of this Section, it is hereby declared that (notwithstanding anything in this Act) the exclusive Legislative Authority of the Parliament of Canada extends to all Matters coming within the Classes of Subjects next hereinafter enumerated; that is to say,
1.   Repealed. (44)  
1A.   The Public Debt and Property. (45)  
2.   The Regulation of Trade and Commerce.  
2A.   Unemployment insurance. (46)  
3.   The raising of Money by any Mode or System of Taxation.  
4.   The borrowing of Money on the Public Credit.  
5.   Postal Service.  
6.   The Census and Statistics.  
7.   Militia, Military and Naval Service, and Defence.  
8.   The fixing of and providing for the Salaries and Allowances of Civil and other Officers of the Government of Canada.  
9.   Beacons, Buoys, Lighthouses, and Sable Island.  
10.   Navigation and Shipping.  
11.   Quarantine and the Establishment and Maintenance of Marine Hospitals.  
12.   Sea Coast and Inland Fisheries.  
13.   Ferries between a Province and any British or Foreign Country or between Two Provinces.  
14.   Currency and Coinage.  
15.   Banking, Incorporation of Banks, and the Issue of Paper Money.  
16.   Savings Banks.  
17.   Weights and Measures.  
18.   Bills of Exchange and Promissory Notes.  
19.   Interest.  
20.   Legal Tender.  
21.   Bankruptcy and Insolvency.  
22.   Patents of Invention and Discovery.  
23.   Copyrights.  
24.   Indians, and Lands reserved for the Indians.  
25.   Naturalization and Aliens.  
26.   Marriage and Divorce.  
27.   The Criminal Law, except the Constitution of Courts of Criminal Jurisdiction, but including the Procedure in Criminal Matters.  
28.   The Establishment, Maintenance, and Management of Penitentiaries.  
29.   Such Classes of Subjects as are expressly excepted in the Enumeration of the Classes of Subjects by this Act assigned exclusively to the Legislatures of the Provinces.  

And any Matter coming within any of the Classes of Subjects enumerated in this Section shall not be deemed to come within the Class of Matters of a local or private Nature comprised in the Enumeration of the Classes of Subjects by this Act assigned exclusively to the Legislatures of the Provinces. (47)

EXCLUSIVE POWERS OF PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURES

Subjects of exclusive Provincial Legislation   92.   In each Province the Legislature may exclusively make Laws in relation to Matters coming within the Classes of Subjects next hereinafter enumerated; that is to say,
1.   Repealed. (48)  
2.   Direct Taxation within the Province in order to the raising of a Revenue for Provincial Purposes.  
3.   The borrowing of Money on the sole Credit of the Province  
4.   The Establishment and Tenure of Provincial Offices and the Appointment and Payment of Provincial Officers.  
5.   The Management and Sale of the Public Lands belonging to the Province and of the Timber and Wood thereon.  
6.   The Establishment, Maintenance, and Management of Public and Reformatory Prisons in and for the Province.  
7.   The Establishment, Maintenance, and Management of Hospitals, Asylums, Charities, and Eleemosynary Institutions in and for the Province, other than Marine Hospitals.  
8.   Municipal Institutions in the Province.  
9.   Shop, Saloon, Tavern, Auctioneer, and other Licences in order to the raising of a Revenue for Provincial, Local, or Municipal Purposes.  
10.   Local Works and Undertakings other than such as are of the following Classes:  

(a)   Lines of Steam or other Ships, Railways, Canals, Telegraphs, and other Works and Undertakings connecting the Province with any other or others of the Provinces, or extending beyond the Limits of the Province:  
(b)   Lines of Steam Ships between the Province and any British or Foreign Country:  
(c)   Such Works as, although wholly situate within the Province, are before or after their Execution declared by the Parliament of Canada to be for the general Advantage of Canada or for the Advantage of Two or more of the Provinces.  

11.   The Incorporation of Companies with Provincial Objects.  
12.   The Solemnization of Marriage in the Province.  
13.   Property and Civil Rights in the Province.  
14.   The Administration of Justice in the Province, including the Constitution, Maintenance, and Organization of Provincial Courts, both of Civil and of Criminal Jurisdiction, and including Procedure in Civil Matters in those Courts.  
15.   The Imposition of Punishment by Fine, Penalty, or Imprisonment for enforcing any Law of the Province made in relation to any Matter coming within any of the Classes of Subjects enumerated in this Section.  
16.   Generally all Matters of a merely local or private Nature in the Province.  

 

   

 

[RCD]

We have been wilting for a long time. an now we are on the verge of falling even further & faster

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Hey ,
 
   I come from the other side of the fence of this argument on Canadian identity. As and immigrant to this country i feel more of a dedication to it. My family came to this country to enjoy the life you all take for granted.
coming to a country where i can vote freely and without fear of retribution is one of the reasons I'd fight and die for it. Whoever said that immigrants don't feel a commitment to Canada is either inept or ignorant. I come from a family that has given their all to do things for this country. My grandfather was an engineer back home, who became a bricklayer to come to Canada. My Father was the first person in my family's 300 year genealogy to ever receive a university education, and scrubbed toilets to pay for it. For these opportunities , I myself decide to help protect the country that has given these opportunities to my family. Ask an immigrant on their opinion before you comment.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Hey ,
 
   I come from the other side of the fence of this argument on Canadian identity. As and immigrant to this country i feel more of a dedication to it. My family came to this country to enjoy the life you all take for granted.

Ask an immigrant on their opinion before you comment.

First of all, rare is the bird on this site who this takes this country for granted... many here are putting their lives on the line so you can have a cushy country in which to live. I'll leave it to others to jack you up further for that stupid comment. I'm not going to bother any further with the ignorant comments already made about immigrants by others, I'm quite sure they will also be spoken to. However, you can be also be sure that there is no need for anybody in this country to seek the permission of anybody, immigrant or not, before they comment on immigration in a reasoned manner. 

Frankly, if you "wannabe" at rmc, you will shortly learn that when your opinion is wanted, you will be told what it will be and when to state it. With your attitude, I have a feeling you are going to have a tough time with that ...  perhaps you should consider other career options.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

We have been wilting for a long time. an now we are on the verge of falling even further & faster

Chicken Little said the same thing...