LGEN Leslie: Troops, helicopters, tanks needed

[ArmyRick]

I signed the dotted line and ten days later arrived at Cornwallis. They should find a way to get the process sped up IMO.

 

[a_majoor]

I see I went off on too much of a tangent, although the unburdening of the HQ level will help matters for many of the reasons I mentioned.

What I SHOULD have said is getting vast quantities of military hardware and personnel will not be particularly effective unless there is an efficient command and control mechanism in place to use the tools at hand. The main sticking point of these vast headquarters isn't that they are full of dumb people (they are not), but rather the sheer mass of hands things have to go through to be actioned is like watching a bobsled race run in a course full of syrup. This is hardly a prescription for the sort of C3I (to use an old term) needed for a supple, globally deployable and deployed force dealing with 4GW opponents.

A heavy metal army with Cold War era headquarters will be unable to take full advantage of the possibilities offered, a Goliath advancing against an army of Davids..........

 

[enfield]

As for the customary digression to the PRes argument of being HQ heavy, I don’t think the General loses any sleep over 15 class A LCols in 31 CBG or anywhere else for that matter.  Could their jobs be done by Majors?  Probably, but the savings would be negligible as they are paid far less then the work they do or would do anyway.  Would having 15 less LCol’s in 31 CBG increase the number of soldiers, particularly deployable soldiers in 31 CBG. 

15 LCols - and their attached RSMs, Adjutants, and (small) staffs - make up a decent sum of money when compared to the annual budgets of most reserve units. My former unit, this training year, averaged 1 full platoon on the weekend Ex's (another platoon worth are in A'Stan). To support that 1 Platoon (or theoretical 2 platoons), the direct chain of command above it contained 1 LCol, 1 CWO, 2 Captains, and 1 MWO, not to mention the Adj, clerks, and RQ and CQ storesmen. Almost every Ex this year had major, often debilitating, restrictions on ammo (live, blank, or sim).
I don't think anyone on the Armoury Floor would choose a LCol over a truckload of ammo. It may not keep the CLS up at night, but it would help.

 

[Andyboy]

Kev et al,

I think you guys are right about bloat, inefficiencies, problems with recruiting and retention, and so forth. Not to be a Debbie Downer or anything but don't forget about the DND side of the house. Are these things part of the "Peace Dividend"?

Andrew

 

[hank011]

Problem Retention.  Solution: Money to the soldiers wanted to be retained

I am in that situation right now and I am eyeing that pension as a buffer zone so that I can take a lesser paying job doing something that holds my interest. All the money in the world wouldnt make me put up with being miserable.
I've watched others get the good jobs and good postings for 20 years...keep your money...send me somewhere cool doing something challenging and I'll stay.

 

[skydiver]

Greetings..
A Majoor and others..about top heavy units (75 soldiers, a LCol, a CWO, couple of Majors etc)..
Our problem is that it takes a long time to qualify someone up to any leadership position/rank.
We are far better off having more leaders than are required by the number of soldiers than vice versa. If worse comes to worse and you have to ramp something up you maybe can recruit like a demon and fill the empty slots in a unit. If you let go of the extra senior ncos and officers then you can't train/lead the new guys.

Not the best situation but how many of us have seen a unit go from well off (leadership) to hurtin badly because the Reg Force did a sudden intake of compoent transfers. I have seen a unit lose a half dozen MCpls, a couple of Sgts, a WO and a few Capts and Lts in one FY. That hurts when you don't have any more waiting in the wings to take over.

 

[3rd Herd]

Back to the topic at hand, Lt. Gen. Lucas on Friday here in Calgary gave a very interesting report on the air side of things. What's been done was mostly the C-17 and the turn around of C-130s from the middle east to help the French out in Africa. Bringing up his wish list has new C-130s on it. Domestically, unmanned drones and their effect at summit conferences past and feature and the up coming Olympics in BC. Further additions to his wish list included "tactical lift helicopters"(Chinooks) and as Afghanistan is experiencing somewhat of an internal conflict the "tactical lift helicopters" are to accompanied by our own "armed recce helicopters". For those on the ground you can stop worrying about those errant A-10 accidents as the Joint Strike fighter will resolve those issues. Lastly the days of those boring patrols over the coast of BC are about to end with the suggestted deployment of the Auroras to the sand box. It seems our allies in using the P-3 and the Nimrods have opened up this door. Interesting in all but, crews, techs, trg, and most of all cash. Has the general been flying too high with a defective oxygen mask?

 

[Globesmasher]

No, I think the General's O2 supply is good,  ;D  but all these projects and proposals as we all know are going to be really hard to accomplish in more ways than one.

Just bringing the C-17 on-line and planning for delivery of the C-130J as early as fall 2009 and then into 2010 has already resulted in all kinds of manpower issues within the Air Force.  Like all the other services  ..... everybody is short of people, money and infrastructure to absorb new capabilities.  While all the new toys are exciting - it will be chaos (positive chaos mind you) for the next few years.  FWSAR has already been pushed to the right by ACP-S, ACP-T and the Chinook .... to the point that we are now talking about re-engining the Buffalo for more life extension .. and sliding FWSAR to the right.

The CP-140 ops in Afghanistan .... yeah that has been discussed at length for some time now by many and all sides concerned.  There are those who say it is "do-able" and those who are dead set against it.
Check here for a lengthy discussion ...

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/54610.0.html

The P-3 and Nimrods routinely offer comm services overhead in many AORs so the role for the CP-140 is certainly feasible - but it is a complex matter of "how to we get there from here?".  I know there are quite a few MP crews who really want to get over there to do the job too.

It's sure tough to see the bright side right now given, like you said, the issues with the crews, techs, trg and the cash.
Very interesting times to be in uniform right now - very interesting.

 

[redleafjumper]

If the good general was really interested in more reservists, he would start looking to those communities with suitable demographics to support new reserve units and start a few up. 

Cheers,

 

[geo]

RLJ +1

 

[retiredgrunt45]

Problem Retention.  Solution: Money to the soldiers wanted to be retained
Problem Equipment. Solution: More money and a procurement program that takes less than a generation
Problem Recruiting.  Solution: In addition to some of the changes already implemented in 2006 getting recruiters who are both qualified in the trade that are recruiting for and want to actually do the job might be a good place to start. For good measure, throw some money at it.

Not rocket science unless we are taking about replacing the ERYX.

Good plan. Problem with this, is it will take another generation to implement this new plan. Paperwork travels just as slow as equipment and personnel procurement in the CF.

The only realistic solution to this crisis is for Ottawa to give Hillier a blank check and say buy what you need. The forces have become so badly eroded, that anything short of this is going to be a futile attempt at nothing and we'll still get nowhere, or at best what we'll get will be to little and come to late to do anybody any good. We have to a do what "Reagan" did in the 80's with the US military and open the vaults and spend some serious coin. Put some tenders out there with some real money attached to them and a time frame when we need the goods "like Now" not 5, 10 or 20 years from now and let the games begin. Some will say this is a drastic measure and unrealistic, well I say this is a very drastic situation, which will take equally drastic measures to recify.

 

[geo]

An off the shelf approach to purchasing would certainly patch things up BUT, there is no supplier in the world who can ramp up and deliver goods today for the $hit we are already standing neck deep in...  for one thing, Politicians, Industry & the unions will all be crying about not buying Canadian...

The equipment we have is in short supply and is tied up with training up, ramping up and deployment.  New recruits being enrolled by the busload will show up at their units only to find that the Fleet Management System for essential equipment ... so they get to work with the gear infrequently... and when it gets into their hands... it's been used to the bone & prone to breaking down... thereby reducing the stocks available for training in the 1st place....

And the reserves haven't had a crack at the gear yet.... making their own ramping up for pre deployment that much more difficult (for them to learn AND for the regs to teach)

Short of bringing CD Howe back from the grave, this isn't going to be pretty AND errors are going to be made...

 

[Journeyman]

The only realistic solution to this crisis is for Ottawa to give Hillier a blank check and say buy what you need.

We obviously have different definitions of "realistic." 

 

[retiredgrunt45]

I get you journeyman, i can hope can't I ;D in the meantime, we have to make sure the supply system has plenty of guntape to keep holding things together until, someone wakes up.

Why isn't buying of the shelf viable for the long haul? It's been done in the past.
Do we always have to wait for some broken down procurement system that takes 10-15 years to get a piece of equipment. or do we wait and see how many more of our people come home in body bags, before we stop listening to the politically motivated crybaby's and the special interest groups, who cry foul everytime we purchase something that isn't made in Canada or doesn't put money in their pocket. Theres some outstanding equipment out there that we could use today and most of it is already available. A good example is the Leo 2's. Israel has already won 3 wars using of the shelf equipment. And as for training and operational use, I'm sure the generals in Ottawa can sort that out.

I can name pieces of equipment we purchased of the shelf that we used for years, M113 family, vietnam era throwaway jeeps, the old deuce and a half, all purchased from the US in the 50's, 60's and 70's we used the M113's right up until the mid 90's 35+ years and some are still in use today, the old throwaway vietnam era jeeps we used all through the 70's until we recieved the Iltis in 83. It wasn' until the late 70's early 80's when we asked Bombardier to build the MLVW that we had any Canadian content. So there is absolutely no excuse for not going back to that system, the equipment is there and we need it, so buy it. As for the whiners and crybabies, you don't see them over in Afghanistan being shot at do you. Because i'm sure if you did, we've have all the equipment we needed in a hurry.

I now know why i got out in the first place. I can see nothing has changed.

 

[3rd Herd]

If the good general was really interested in more reservists, he would start looking to those communities with suitable demographics to support new reserve units and start a few up. 

Cheers,

Red,
it is not only demographics to support and yes I know this is one of your pet project areas. You may though have hit the nail with a redistribution of existing units. I believe the General was caught off guard over the Christmas break by a Militia (Reserve) CO who announced to the General that he had a trained up full coy ready for the next roto and another coy being built up. Now I do doubt however these Coy's will be used in their own ORBAT but will be spread amongst various tasks on the roto. However, though those units that are performing should stay, those that are not could be moved to a geographical location where the multitude of resources could led to an enhancement of said unit.

 

[redleafjumper]

3rd Herd, I understand and agree with you that it is not only demographics that indicate whether or not a unit is viable in the long term.  However, where I sit I am damn sure that I could put together a full strength company in pretty short order, if given some time for training, the resources and the opportunity to do it.  Every time I see a recruiting ad for the CF, and listen to some statement that we need more soldiers, both regular and reserve I shake my head.  A good part of the available resources are not being considered. 

 

[hank011]

  A good part of the available resources are not being considered. 

I totally agree! As I've said before, we have 65000 in uniform but once you minus the bulk of the Navy, Air Force, Schools and Headquarters we dont have many available bodies for Afghanistan. If the will was there, MOSART would have fixed this problem on the support side. There is no easy answer for the combat arms trades.

 

[civmick]

here's one answer, though perhaps not an easy one - send some recruiters south to get even 5% of the 9,488 US service personnel discharged under "don't ask don't tell" through FY05 (source New York Times).  Obviously some retraining would be required (the proper way to spell the Queen's English for a start) but if you could get some with hands-on or better yet instructor level experience on US made hardware in current Canadian service...  Might has well have some US service personnel crossing the border who are actually of use to Canada.

 

[hank011]

  The general impression I get from posts on this forum as well as my colleagues is that there are a whole lot of people ready, willing and able to do a tour but cant get there.  The US doesn't have that problem, everyone goes, but they are running out.
  Perhaps the US should offer Canadian soldiers a chance to join their military. The CF doesn't seem interested in deploying the ones they've got.

 

[Edward Campbell]

This is reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions(§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Ottawa Citizen:

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=84923e36-41a6-4274-9cd0-d0b0bb1bfd3b&p=2

Forces battle against retirement
Pressure to recruit intensifies as baby-boomers poised to leave

David ********, The Ottawa Citizen
Published: Saturday, March 17, 2007

While such financial security is not foremost on the minds of young new recruits, it is a factor with those who might influence younger people to join the military. "Financial security is a major issue for older potential applicants and particularly for teachers and parents that influence younger potential applicants," the report notes.

The emphasis on physical fitness and improvements in quality of life for military families could also improve recruitment.

The report also recommends recruiting more from the aboriginal community since, at present, about one-third of that population is age 14 or younger.

But it also emphasizes that new recruits must be clear on the demands and the potential dangers of a military career. In the past, some recruiters have downplayed or obscured such issues in the hopes of increasing the number of applicants, it adds.

© The Ottawa Citizen 2007​

No one ever said it was going to be easy but Gens. Hillier and Leslie and their minions should read Ruxted, here.



[Edit to remove duplicate paragraphs.]