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Legal furor erupts over same-sex proposal

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FredDaHead

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Legal furor erupts over same-sex proposal
Defence of Religions Act would violate Charter of Rights, experts warn Ottawa
BILL CURRY and JILL MAHONEY

With reports from Tenille Bonoguore and Murray Campbell in Toronto, Katherine Harding in Edmonton and Gloria Galloway in Ottawa

OTTAWA, TORONTO -- Courts would quickly strike down any federal legislation allowing public officials to refuse to perform same-sex marriages as a violation of the Charter of Rights and an intrusion into provincial affairs, constitutional experts said yesterday.

The idea of such a law provoked political warnings from wary provinces who said it was unnecessary, along with cries of outrage from advocacy groups and criticism from opposition MPs who said it would legalize discrimination and could even encourage hate crimes.

"I think it's just political posturing," said Brenda Cossman, a family law professor at the University of Toronto. "It's perfectly clear here that they do not have the constitutional authority to do this."

The Globe and Mail reported yesterday that the federal Justice Department was preparing measures that could be introduced should the government's bid to reopen the same-sex marriage debate be rejected as expected.

The previous Liberal government legalized same-sex marriage in 2005 and Prime Minister Stephen Harper has promised a vote this fall on whether to revisit the issue.

Government sources told The Globe one option is a Defence of Religions Act that would allow officials to refuse to perform same-sex marriages and protect the rights of people who criticize homosexual behaviour or refuse to do business with gay-rights organizations.

Mr. Harper told the House of Commons yesterday the matter was "speculation," and said, "I have not seen such a law."

However, neither he nor any other minister denied that such options are being prepared.

Prof. Cossman called the idea of allowing public officials to refuse to perform same-sex marriage a violation of provincial jurisdiction "in the most blatant and obvious way," and said any such bill would be struck down soon after it was passed.

It has long been established that while the federal government defines who can and cannot marry, the provinces deal with the machinery of marriage, from licences to officiants, she said.

Sujit Choudhry, a constitutional law professor at the University of Toronto, said Ottawa does not have the authority to grant provincial officials a religious exemption. "At first blush, that would seem to me to be a constitutional problem."

A spokesman for the Manitoba government also said the plan to allow public officials to refuse to perform same-sex marriages treads into provincial responsibility.

Ontario Attorney-General Michael Bryant questioned whether the measure was needed in his province. He said that provincial legislation authorizing same-sex marriages entrenches freedom of religion and that this is buttressed by provisions in the Human Rights Code.

Of the 2,000 same-sex marriages performed in Ontario, there has not been a single incident in which a public official has protested that his or her freedom of religion or freedom of conscience had been violated, Mr. Bryant said in an interview.

But Bart Johnson, spokesman for Alberta Justice, said the Progressive Conservative government, which has long opposed same-sex marriage, is reviewing whether it should draft its own legislation to protect these people from human-rights complaints or legal persecution.

The issue dominated debate on Parliament Hill yesterday.

Bloc Québécois MP Réal Ménard, who is gay, accused the government during Question Period of attempting to "legalize discrimination."

"Does the Minister of Justice realize that under the pretext of protecting freedom of religion and freedom of expression, liberties that are already protected by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, what he's proposing is to authorize religious groups to discriminate without worry?"

Liberal MP Marlene Jennings attacked the notion as unnecessary given the protections in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms for religion and freedom of speech.

"The only usefulness that I would see of this piece of legislation would be to create a protection for hate speech, which is not constitutional," she said.

While the motion to reopen the same-sex marriage debate is expected to be defeated by opposition MPs supported by a few Conservatives, there is a solid core of Conservative MPs and social conservatives who want some protection for those who are uncomfortable with the issue.

Advocacy groups on both sides of the debate are cautiously waiting to see what exactly is put on the table.

Gilles Marchildon, executive director of gay-rights organization Egale Canada, said he was deeply concerned that Canadians were being misled by the fledgling debate.

"Religious freedom is protected already. It seems obvious they're pandering to a very narrow religious base and further delaying dealing with the issue of same-sex marriage," Mr. Marchildon said.

Joseph Ben-Ami, executive director of the Institute for Canadian Values, said the question of same-sex marriages and who should be required to perform them should be open to review and public debate.

The Left has spoken: gay marriage is more important than the rights of those who oppose it. I'm no expert, but I do believe we have a thing called "freedom of religion" here, and forcing someone to perform something that is the polar opposite of what that person believes, is kinda going against that freedom, isn't it?

I also take offense to the idea that allowing people to act upon their principles (be allowed not to marry gay people if they believe it's wrong) will somehow create hate crimes. Forcing people to act against their principles will foster hate crimes, not letting people do what they believe is right!

Any thoughts?
 
What about those who oppose same sex "marriage" on a basis of other than religious grounds (eg: they just think it's not right).  That is the opinion of my 9 year old daughter, who said "men don't marry men".  Naive?  Uneducated?  Product of a homophobic family?  I don't think so...

just asking
 
This is a touchy subject and everything is debatable.
IMHO I find it is a case of ' to each his own '.
I don't think it will make a difference what people accepts or can't tolerate.
If the laws are in place then there's not much one person can do.

I am neutral on this subject.
I guess it all depends on the religion you believe in.
I'm Catholic and it clearly states in the bible that same sex mariage is wrong.
But then, it states a thousand other things are wrong and people does it without beeing pointed a sinner.
So I really feel that when it all comes down to religion ... it's a no-win situation.
 
..and this only stays open as long as it stays civil.
 
One thing I forgot to add to my post is ...
What about the ones who don't respect the idea of same-sex mariage other than a religion point of view ?
Some have been told all their lives that same-sex is not respected.. etc ...
So this is another point to debate :)
 
The whole article (and this "discussion") is based on possible, potential, not-yet-happened but doubtful it will, contingencies. ::)
Globe and Mail reported yesterday that the federal Justice Department was preparing measures that could be  introduced should the government's bid to reopen the same-sex marriage debate be rejected as expected.

Bruce Monkhouse said:
..and this only stays open as long as it stays civil.
So I shouldn't point out the fact that it's predominantly of interest to Fred...who suffers from being both Navy and an RMC cadet?  >:D

Go on then, lock it up and save the bandwidth
 
I think the article has at least exposed one sore point about the gay rights agenda- no opposition will be tolerated and they want the unequivocal right to persecute (i)anybody who is percieved as being anti-gay, and (ii) intimidate those who are not pro gay. This leaves the majority of Canadians [those who really don't give a crap one way or the other] in a very precarious position. I think that is the situation the government wishes to rectify, but once again they have let the left take control of the message, and now any attempt to restore balance to the debate has been forever lost.

I am a conservative, but these bunch of clowns in Ottawa running the show are demonstrating that they can fuck up a one horse show. They are fast becoming a liability rather than a positive force for change.



edit for grammar.
 
Journeyman said:
So I shouldn't point out the fact that it's predominantly of interest to Fred...who suffers from being both Navy and an RMC cadet?  >:D

Go on then, lock it up and save the bandwidth

When did Jouneyman get appointed "He Who Determines What is of Interest" on this site?
 
whiskey601 said:
I think the article has at least exposed one sore point about the gay rights agenda- no opposition will be tolerated and they want the unequivocal right to persecute (i)anybody who is percieved as being anti-gay, and (ii) intimidate those who are not pro gay.

Kind of like those uppity blacks in the 60's getting mad at those who didn't want them treated like real human beings...

No one is asking you to be pro gay, how about being pro human being and affording others the same rights and priviledges 'normal' people expect.


Oh, and about the comment under your avatar; you try living in south Florida without air conditioning  :D
 
sigpig said:
Kind of like those uppity blacks in the 60's getting mad at those who didn't want them treated like real human beings...

No, more like those in the 90s saying affirmative action (racism) is fine, instead of targetting the problem of poverty among all races. But that's a whole new ballgame.

There's a world of difference between allowing freedom of religion and freedom of speech and condoning discrimination.

If I say "all fags must die" then I'm discriminating, and this is hate speech, and I shouldn't be allowed to say it. But if I can't say "I believe homosexual should not be allowed to be married under the same laws as heterosexual couples, but should have the right to a civil union with similar advantages," then there's a major problem relating to freedom of speech. Similarly, the Left are making it sound as though allowing people to refuse to perform a ceremony (or whichever way you want to word it) because of their beliefs, will completely prevent gay people from getting married--it will not, it just means the person performing will be a different person than the one tasked in the first place. Assuming at least half of the people who would have to do that have no problem performing gay marriage, gay people will be able to get married without any problem.

I think whiskey hit the nail on the head. (Or however that one goes...) The Gay Rights movement doesn't want freedom of speech, they want freedom of speech as long as you agree with them. If you don't think men should marry men for whatever reason, there is NOTHING that should prevent you from saying so, as long as you don't go into hate speech.
 
I'm sure those who wish to discuss this issue can find thousands of places to do just that.........but not here.
Locked with the usual disclaimers.
 
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