Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF

[Eye In The Sky]

I don't understand why people are acting like soldiers aren't smoking up right now.

I am not.  I know some do, as some also break the regs on family violence, drunk driving, and various other laws of varying degrees of severity. 

Service members breaking rules and regulations and laws is now an argument to just doing away with those rules, regulations and laws ???

Let's not fuck around then, let's remove murder from the laws as well.  People are committing murder in Canada after all...why are we pretending they're not?

 

[Altair]

Because it's illegal right now and if found using you'll be put on administrative measures or, in the case of a second test being positive, be dismissed.

Maybe that's why.

Ya, sure.

From a administrative standpoint there is a difference. From a practical one, there isn't. There are soldiers using cannabis on their free time now and to date, I havent seen them forced to pee in a cup outside of the blind tests the CF does on occasion.

But as far as I know, the CF hasn't fallen apart, these soldiers do their jobs (some are even the golden boys) and all of doom and gloom people are currently talking about hasn't come to pass.

I, personally, don't think things would change that much once its legal.

 

[Altair]

And when you heard them openly talking about using it illegally you just ignored it, right?

Not all Sigs are blades.

Seriously though, the CF does blind drug testing, they know what percentage of soldiers are doing drugs, they don't need me to single them out.

 

[Altair]

I am not.  I know some do, as some also break the regs on family violence, drunk driving, and various other laws of varying degrees of severity. 

Service members breaking rules and regulations and laws is now an argument to just doing away with those rules, regulations and laws ???

Let's not frig around then, let's remove murder from the laws as well.  People are committing murder in Canada after all...why are we pretending they're not?

Not the point I was trying to make.

The point I was trying to make was people talking about the horrible things that would result from soldiers being allowed to legally light up, while somehow ignoring that these things aren't happening now while soldiers are illegally lighting up.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

From my experience with both alcohol and cannabis, I'd rather my pilot have smoked a joint yesterday instead of going on a drunken binge, while still meeting the 12 hour requirement. Professionally I'd rather them not do either.

I can spot someone who is still under the effects, even minor, of alcohol though.  I can smell it on their breath, even after the 12 hour deal.  Pot?  That is to be determined.

Although I'm not aware of a study that quantifies the acute cognitive impairment over the course of hours since consumption, I don't think it would last much longer than alcohol in the amounts that most people would normally consume. The fact that THC takes a long time to excrete is because it's not water soluble. It could be weeks before it's completely eliminated, but that doesn't mean it's still having an effect. More studies are needed.

If the studies show that THC is stored in fat (I accept that as reasonable fact from my amateur research skills) and that things like exercise can lead to 'more being released into the bloodstream' days or weeks down the road, wouldn't that make it possible that an infanteer involved in a TIC and humping shit around could experience the effects of the drug in the bloodstream during the period of 'exercise'?

One example of a reasonable concern.  I am hopeful the CAF SMEs (medical, legal, operational, etc) are giving this a good long, hard look.  Personally, I've seen pot be the picture perfect gateway drug and know more than one person in my life who started there and fell down the slippery slope...admittedly, I've also known people who got into significant trouble with alcohol as well, but my concern here is with the way the body stores/process/eliminates THC compared to alcohol.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Ya, sure.

From a administrative standpoint there is a difference. From a practical one, there isn't. There are soldiers using cannabis on their free time now and to date, I havent seen them forced to pee in a cup outside of the blind tests the CF does on occasion.

But as far as I know, the CF hasn't fallen apart, these soldiers do their jobs (some are even the golden boys) and all of doom and gloom people are currently talking about hasn't come to pass.

I, personally, don't think things would change that much once its legal.

I am more concerned with the generation, maybe your generation, of service members who seem to think that rules, regs and policy only count if they get caught.  And that they seemingly can decide on their own which ones they do and don't follow.  And that, as you admit yourself, you and others know of people buzzing up illegally and don't have the balls or discipline to do anything about it because, as I mentioned, you feel entitled or whatever to decide which rules are, and aren't, followed.

Hopefully you, and others, get sorted out before you also make those types of decisions about extremely important things, like which aspects of an ROE you follow and which ones are...meh.  no biggy.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Not all Sigs are blades.

Is there a list of what illegal activity sigs do and don't report?  Would you report them for openly talking about doing mushrooms?

Seriously though, the CF does blind drug testing, they know what percentage of soldiers are doing drugs, they don't need me to single them out.

Lifes easy when it's always someone else's problem.

 

[Altair]

I am more concerned with the generation, maybe your generation, of service members who seem to think that rules, regs and policy only count if they get caught.  And that they seemingly can decide on their own which ones they do and don't follow.  And that, as you admit yourself, you and others know of people buzzing up illegally and don't have the balls or discipline to do anything about it because, as I mentioned, you feel entitled or whatever to decide which rules are, and aren't, followed.

Hopefully you, and others, get sorted out before you also make those types of decisions about extremely important things, like which aspects of an ROE you follow and which ones are...meh.  no biggy.

You would be very disappointed if you knew how many soldiers ignore that rule, of that I am sure.

Like...my entire unit.

 

[Altair]

Is there a list of what illegal activity sigs do and don't report?  Would you report them for openly talking about doing mushrooms?
Lifes easy when it's always someone else's problem.

You have never met a soldier who broke a rule?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Not the point I was trying to make.

The point I was trying to make was people talking about the horrible things that would result from soldiers being allowed to legally light up, while somehow ignoring that these things aren't happening now while soldiers are illegally lighting up.

How do you know things are happening now with those illegally lighting up?  I can guarantee one thing that is happening...they are going against their commitment to Canada, Canadians and all serving members.  I find that somewhat significant, if others do not.  My job is laid out fairly simple for me, really, as is yours as a NCM.  What is your excuse for failing to perform your duties IAW the NDA?  Are you disloyal, or lazy, or just part of the "I can decide what rules apply to me" crowd? 

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-01/toc-05.page

5.01- GENERAL RESPONSIBILITIES OF NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS

A non-commissioned member shall:

a.become acquainted with, observe and enforce
i.the National Defence Act,
ii.the Security of Information Act, (5 June 2008)
iii.QR&O, and
iv.all other regulations, rules, orders and instructions that pertain to the performance of the member's duties;

(See articles 1.22 – Accessibility of Regulations, Orders and Instructions and 4.26 – Publicity of Regulations, Orders, Instructions, Correspondence and Publications.)

b.afford to all persons employed in the public service such assistance in the performance of their duties as is practical;
c.promote the welfare, efficiency and good discipline of all who are subordinate to the member;
d.ensure the proper care and maintenance and prevent the waste of all public and non-public property within the member's control; and
e.report to the proper authority any infringement of the pertinent statutes, regulations, rules, orders and instructions governing the conduct of any person subject to the Code of Service Discipline.

I've happened across people who were slightly over the 12 hour rule (innocently, in fact) BUT as a person holding a Lead appointment signed by my CO as well as knowing the above duties expected of me, I didn't turn a blind eye and say "meh".  I reminded the individual, both superior and subordinate in rank in several different situations, that they were into the 12 hour window.  As a Snr NCO, and a crew Lead, and whatever else I may be in my current position, I don't have to authority to disregard my duties.  In fact, I get paid by government and taxpayers of Canada to perform my duties as expected...which is laid out above in the QR & O.

People like you, who turn a blind eye and let shit continue to go sideways wearing a uniform and progressing higher in rank worry me as much as all CAF members being allowed to get stoned on the weekends, to be honest. 

Not meant to be harsh or a personal attack, I don't know you personally.  You do present yourself as someone who is turning a blind eye knowing people are breaking some serious CAF regulations, and that is what my post was meant to address;  the danger this mentality presents to a military force.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

You would be very disappointed if you knew how many soldiers ignore that rule, of that I am sure.

Like...my entire unit.

Your entire unit is ignoring which rule?  Smoking up?

Do you include your CO, CWO...all the Officers, Warrant Officers and Snr NCOs??

 

[Altair]

Your entire unit is ignoring which rule?  Smoking up?

Do you include your CO, CWO...all the Officers, Warrant Officers and Snr NCOs??

I have no first hand knowledge of who knows what, what I do know is that those who have been doing it, have been relatively open about it with their peers have suffered no negative consequences or individual drug testing.

Take from that what you will.

Still, completely besides the point I was trying to make.

 

[Jarnhamar]

You have never met a soldier who broke a rule?

Not filling out a multi-user sheet is breaking a rule. Openly talking (bragging?) about doing illegal drugs is something else. As is ignoring it IMVO.

Sorry man but your unit sounds like shit.

 

[Altair]

Not filling out a multi-user sheet is breaking a rule. Openly talking (bragging?) about doing illegal drugs is something else. As is ignoring it IMVO.

Sorry man but your unit sounds like crap.

I can't argue that.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I have no first hand knowledge of who knows what, what I do know is that those who have been doing it, have been relatively open about it with their peers have suffered no negative consequences or individual drug testing.

Take from that what you will.

What I take from that is a group of CAF members who aren't doing their sworn duty on many levels and, as you present it, a pathetic CofC that should be investigated and replaced.

:2c:

 

[Scott]

I can spot someone who is still under the effects, even minor, of alcohol though.  I can smell it on their breath, even after the 12 hour deal.  Pot?  That is to be determined.

With your time in and varied locations, it's not to be determined: I'd be willing to wager a large part of my pay that you've already worked with someone who was hitting the old electric lettuce and you didn't have a sweet clue. That's not finger pointing or anything, just a simple statement.

 

[jollyjacktar]

They would have to be more circumspect than l was as a young guy.  It was obvious when l'd had some lettuce.  But, you're right, Scott.  I had a friend tell me when he was leaving the CF that he had been using for the past year for pain management. Never noticed any change in his demeanor.

 

[Scott]

They would have to be more circumspect than l was as a young guy.  It was obvious when l'd had some lettuce.  But, you're right, Scott.  I had a friend tell me when he was leaving the CF that he had been using for the past year for pain management. Never noticed any change in his demeanor.

My brother-in-law partakes. Quite a bit, from what I can see. Easiest way to tell he's been at it just by looking at his shop: he'll be on to the fine detail work, and doing it well. The last time I hung quarter round he recommended I have a hoot just to stay sane ;D

In all seriousness, I have worked with guys who liked pot and guys who liked booze. Without exception, I would rather the guy who smokes a bit of grass compared to someone who'd been at the bottle the night before - and sometimes 8, or even 12, hours ain't enough.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

With your time in and varied locations, it's not to be determined: I'd be willing to wager a large part of my pay that you've already worked with someone who was hitting the old electric lettuce and you didn't have a sweet clue. That's not finger pointing or anything, just a simple statement.

And I agree 100%, which is my point.  If someone is impaired by alcolhol from givin' er the night before, I can, likely, still tell just by talking to them.  Weed?  Not so much, for me at least.

I've no doubt that someone is, and that worries me.  I hope it's the person making the flight feeding and not the Avn Tech fixing the plane I'll be in this week. 

 

[SeaKingTacco]

My brother-in-law partakes. Quite a bit, from what I can see. Easiest way to tell he's been at it just by looking at his shop: he'll be on to the fine detail work, and doing it well. The last time I hung quarter round he recommended I have a hoot just to stay sane ;D

In all seriousness, I have worked with guys who liked pot and guys who liked booze. Without exception, I would rather the guy who smokes a bit of grass compared to someone who'd been at the bottle the night before - and sometimes 8, or even 12, hours ain't enough.

All of these anecdotes are fine, but what I actually want is the scientific/medical evidence on how marijuana users react in a military aviation environment. We have a tonne of research for alcohol usage and our rules do a pretty good job of governing its usage.