Lebanon (Superthread)

[enfield]

Israel appears to be losing this propoganda war. Hitting a UN OP, and now hitting a house with 30-60 (reports seem sketchy) civilians inside suggests that Israel needs to be a little more careful in its targetting. Whatever the arguments about 'fog of war', collateral damage, etc., when these incidents occur it costs valuable political and diplomatic currency. Rules of engagement always stresss measured and equal response - demolishing Lebanon is not an equal response to some rockets and a couple kidnappings.

I'm generally on Israel's side (and definitely never on Hezbollah's side) but frankly, the IDF has been disappointing in this campaign. The heavy use of air power and indirect fire to fight the main fight inevitably leads to incidents like the UN post and large scale civilian casualties. Maybe more ground forces are the answer, or a better public relations plan to highlight successes - I don't know, and I'm hesitant to play arm-chair general with the few facts we have available now. I agree that Israel had to respond in a massive and decisive way to the attacks by Hezbollah, but so far they've failed - daily rocket attacks rise, civilian deaths increase, and Lebanon is pushed further into the Dark Age. The US and the West are going to force a cease fire soon, and by all accounts Hezbollah is still standing in the ruins.

 

[Journeyman]

I don't know, and I'm hesitant to play arm-chair general with the few facts we have available now.

+1  Two wise phrases, absent from much discussion on this topic

 

[54/102 CEF]

Agile networks insight here - their chain of command is very light - here's your mission - fight and die.

From New York Times

A New Enemy Gains on the U.S. 
By THOM SHANKER
Published: July 30, 2006

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/30/weekinreview/30shanker.html?oref=login&pagewanted=all

If you can't figure out the big words it goes like this - this is war without rules and traditional lineups of sections, platoons, companies, battalions, at the same time - every war tends to start as a surprise to one side or the other.

Whatever they do is bad - but if you respond in kind - they and your own people pile on - thats very bad!

 

[Journeyman]

It does seem disjointed doesn't it. Almost timid. Political control may explain some of the timidity, but I keep waiting for the hammer to fall.

LMAO, just moments after commenting on people playing arm-chair general with few facts, now I'll weigh in with mere speculation (dammit  ).

I suspect one of the factors affecting their operations is that Israel published its new military doctrine in April, The General Staff's Operational Concept for the IDF. Doctrine is very closely linked with an army's culture, and hence, takes a while to change. Is it possible that recent Staff College graduates and General Staff officers are trying to implement a "new way of war," while the lower-level commanders (LCol & below, especially reservists) are not up to speed on "the vision"?

I'll speculate even further away from any factual knowledge and suggest that they may be having difficulties getting the concepts out to the warfighters because two of the more brilliant developers of the doctrine (BGen [Res] Dov Tamari and, especially, BGen [Res] Dr. Shimon Naveh), were recently sacked. I haven't heard what has happened with them since this latest fighting broke out, but these two respected officers were removed from the leadership of  the IDF's Operational Theory Research Institute (OTRI), because of "irregularities in their billing procedures."1


Note: completely wild-assed guess follows: Debate occurring between the new doctrine and the old doctrine is likely ending as this is being typed. Old-school IDF commanders are also pointing to the disjointed timidity and saying, "see Ishmael, this fancy new thinking just don't work."

Conversely, there is a growing awareness of propaganda, particularly amongst the political leadership - - Ariel Sharon, after consulting with his public relations team (not Mossad or the IDF), unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2003, while firing IDF Chief of General Staff and Director of the National Security Council for not supporting the move.

If these politicians are stronger, then greater attempts at PR will be seen, while the disjointed nature of the operations will continue. If the traditional military is stronger, this will result in old doctrine reasserting itself as multiple Bde(+)-size assaults northward....soon.


Just my guess. Worth exactly what you paid for it 

--------------------
1. Caroline Glick, The Jerusalem Post, 8 June 2006

 

[Centurian1985]

That tends to lead to the time-honoured uncomfortable question that lawyers and politicians have been ducking for years: do you have to carry a weapon or commit an act of violence to be labelled a terrorist?  

Is the cook who feeds the terrorists also a terrorist? Is the mechanic who fixes the truck that launches missles also a terrorist? If they know they are feeding and working for a terrorist group then yes, they are accomplices in any terrorist acts that the terrorists commit.

Is the wife who cooks for her terrorist husband and his buddies a terrorist? Is the teenager, the nephew of a terrorist, who carries messages between cells also a terrorist?  This is the really hot issue.  Have they been coerced or are they accomplices? Im sure the Hizbollah would say 'no' and call them innocent civilians, while the Israelis might be willing to label them as willing supporters.

In the end it is impossible to confirm 100% who is who.  

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

CNN Reliable Sources (hosted by Howard Kurtz, transcript): http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0607/23/rs.01.html

KURTZ: All right. I want to go now to CNN's Nic Robertson, who joins us live from Beirut.

Nic Robertson, we were speaking a moment ago about the way journalists cover Hezbollah and some of these tours that Hezbollah officials have arranged of the bomb damage in the areas of Southern Lebanon. You, I believe, got one of those tours.

Isn't it difficult for you as a journalist to independently verify any claims made by Hezbollah, because you're not able to go into the buildings and see whether or not there is any military activity or any weapons being hidden there?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Howard, there's no doubt about it: Hezbollah has a very, very sophisticated and slick media operations. In fact, beyond that, it has very, very good control over its areas in the south of Beirut. They deny journalists access into those areas. They can turn on and off access to hospitals in those areas. They have a lot of power and influence. You don't get in there without their permission.

...

But there's no doubt about it. They had control of the situation. They designated the places that we went to, and we certainly didn't have time to go into the houses or lift up the rubble to see what was underneath.

...

So there's no doubt that the bombs there are hitting Hezbollah facilities. But from what we can see, there appear to be a lot of civilian damage, a lot of civilian properties. But again, as you say, we didn't have enough time to go in, root through those houses, see if perhaps there was somebody there who was, you know, taxi driver there...

KURTZ: So to -- so to what extent...

ROBERTSON: ... of access, Howard.

KURTZ: To what extent do you feel like you're being used to put up the pictures that they want -- obviously, it's terrible that so many civilians have been killed -- without any ability, as you just outlined, to verify, because -- to verify Hezbollah's role, because this is a fighting force that is known to blend in among the civilian population and keep some of its weapons there?

ROBERTSON: Absolutely. And I think as we try and do our job, which is go out and see what's happened to the best of our ability, clearly, in that environment, in the southern suburbs of Beirut that Hezbollah controls, the only way we can get into those areas is with a Hezbollah escort. And absolutely, when you hear their claims they have to come with -- with a -- more than a grain of salt, that you have to put in some journalistic integrity. That you have to point out to the audience and let them know that this was a guided tour by Hezbollah press officials along with security, that it was a very rushed affair.

KURTZ: Right.

ROBERTSON: That there wasn't time to go and look through those buildings. The audience has to know the conditions of that tour. But again, if we didn't get all -- or we could not get access to those areas without Hezbollah compliance, they control those areas.

... CNN's Nic Robertson in Beirut

Which is also reflected in Mr. Majoor's post here: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/48147/post-420234.html#msg420234

This line bears repeating: "And absolutely, when you hear their claims they have to come with -- with a -- more than a grain of salt"

 

[couchcommander]

On the same token, I don't understand why people think when military operations are being carried out, there is no limit to what actions can or should be taken.

No, there are limits - namely actions against civilians that go beyond what is required to successfully complete their operations. However, as has been said, if Hizballah is hiding behind civilians - it's their fault for bringing them into this.

You know, Hizballah could basically stop all Lebanese civilian causalities, and it's really quite simple. Start wearing recognizable uniforms, separating military and civilian infrastructure, and evacuating people from areas if they choose to conduct operations from them.

One of the primary purposes of uniforms is to identify combatants, and if Hizballah chooses to blur that line, then I am not angry at Israel for innocent Lebanese deaths - it's Hizballah's fault for bringing them into this.

I can't say I agree 100% with Israel's actions, but I am certainly not angry with them.

 

[cplcaldwell]

What seems strange, given the intense media attention to this issue is the absence of any imagery that supports Israel's claims. I don't doubt their claims. Additionally, Hezbollah's 'MO' over the years tend (IMHO) to indicate they are not above such tactics (strategy?).

I just think that it's odd in this day of Google Earth and multiple high resolution image satellites (both government and private) that no one has been able to produce this proof. (Even a 3m resolution image would lend some credence to this claim).

Additionally, the Israeli's must be using something for target acquistion, it would seem that at least one shot from a Sperwer (or whatever they use) would help absolve them.

Hezbollah may very well be engaging in a crass and cynical attempt to win this war by buggering the IDF, but why doesn't someone, the IDF or some third party produce something to demonstrate that there were fighters on the hill at al-Khayim or Katyusha's parked next to the shelter at Qana?

This current state of affairs is all very Orwellian.

 

[GAP]

here is a link from Christian Science Monitor...interesting article...kinda reinforces what is being said here and in other threads..

Is Hizbullah winning by losing?
posted July 31, 2006 at 12:30 p.m.
Analysts fear a PR victory for Islamist 'fanaticsm' would destabilize regional hopes for democracy.
By Tom Regan  | csmonitor.com

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0731/dailyUpdate.html?s=mesdu
one of the paragraphs

One reason for Israel's reluctance to accept a cease-fire is that a growing number of terrorism and security experts, and even members of Hizbullah's political wing, believe that Hizbullah will be seen as the "winner" of the battle with Israel if it merely survives. Newsweek reports that as the fighting has continued and Israel has not been able to achieve significant military goals, the Bush administration has come to the realization that "Hizbullah could win simply by losing."

 

[ghazise]

Lebanon's government has a power sharing parliament, with a number of seats dedicated along religious lines.  Lebanon has a Prime Minister and a President, The pro-Hezbollah president has had his term extended previous to the Syrian withdrawal.  The Prime Minister, does not support Hezbollah and did want to disarm the militia.  Unfortunately within the Lebanese parliament resolutions to comply with UN resolutions to disarm Hezbollah were vetoed by the President.  So with the withdrawal of Syrian troops from Lebanon, Hezbollah was left, Lebanon had no way to force the disarmament of Hezbollah. 

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

About as well as talks between Egypt and Israel went, or between Israel and Jordan. Both Egypt and Jordan have negotiated peace treaties with Israel. Neither was negotiated in the immediate aftermath of war.

What's the alternative? Fight your way to a stalemate. Israel and Hizballah have both been down this very same road before. I believe peace is possible between Hizballah and Israel, and it will come to be within the next few years. How many Israelis and Lebanese need to die between now and then? Hizballah and Israel aren't really that far apart.

Peace will be the real victory for all people.

Regards,

tourza

You're joking, right?

I suppose Hizbollah just wants peace, right?  Once the Israelis withdraw from, um, Israel are all dead, the world will be at peace ... in Nasrallah's words:

"Israel is an illegal usurper entity, which is based on falsehood, massacres, and illusions, and there is no chance for its survival." http://memri.org/bin/opener.cgi?Page=archives&ID=SP3699

"if {the Jews} all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide." http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/printer-friendly.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29387

"It is an open war until the elimination of Israel and until the death of the last Jew on earth." http://www.nysun.com/pf.php?id=10439

"{Jews} are a cancer which is liable to spread again at any moment." http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.24667,filter.all/pub_detail.asp

Peace with Israel is the last thing Hizbollah wants ...

 

[Infanteer]

I tend to agree with John Galt; as opposed to the moderate Hashemites in Jordan and the realist Nasserite's in Egypt, the hardcore Hezbollah don't really see peace as a strategic goal.  However, the Economist had a really good article last week (I'm trying to get it up here) that described how Hezbollah is wearing out its novelty with much of the Mid-East who isn't keen on the boat rocking being done (as if there isn't enough going on).  Hopefully, enough backroom pressure can be applied on Hezbollah, but Israel's actions make it hard - especially for amiable governments in the region like Egypt or Saudi Arabia which have angry citizens to deal with.

 

[a_majoor]

I am a bit sceptical of the idea that there can be a meaningful dialogue between Israel and Hezbollah. Israel has taken virtually every step demanded of it, exchanging prisoners, evacuating Southern Lebanon (by choice, not under duress), offering someting like 90% of the demands made in Oslo and Camp David to the Palestinians, refraining from striking until horribly provoked, and they get in return? Suicide bomb attacks against schools, restaurants, night clubs and buses, killing and kidnapping of her uniformed personnel and rocket attacks against civilian targets.

Hezbollah, and its masters in Iran openly call for the destruction of the State of Israel, with predictable results to the population. The results of a Hezbollah "victory" for the population of Lebanon can also be imagined, the real or perceived legitimacy of Hezbollah even in achieving a stalemate will probably result in a Taliban like state being established in Lebanon (so much for the Paris of the Middle East).

What makes this entire affair so macabre is that Israel is a constitutional, democratic, free market state, yet where are the pro Israel rallies and offers of help and support from the constitutional, democratic, free market states around the world? Where is the wild, sputtering outrage against Hezbollah fighters who deliberately use the civil population of Lebanon as human shields (and who's deaths should properly be recorded as being caused by the Hezbollah, who gleefully engineer these murders)?

Egypt and Jordan may not have negotiated peace in the immediate aftermath of a war, but after repeatedly being shown military victory was not possible. Since their governments and societies are guided by fairly secular principles, peace treaties made sense. Hezbollah represents a very different type of society, which is not grounded on the same principles of statesmanship, Realpolitik or anything else we are familiar with. The closest analogue might be an Indian reservation taken over by the "Warriors society", or imagining the Hell's Angels in control of a local municipality. Since they are only interested in the raw exercise of power, the only dialogue which they understand is "you are under arrest". Given the vastly expanded range and power of Hezbollah, and the presence of an external state sponsor, "you are under arrest" isn't going to cut it.

What is the answer? We have seen the historical results of occupation, concessions and dialogue and we know they don't work. Any bright ideas?

 

[tomahawk6]

A strike against a major Hizbollah base what is probably a kidnap mission.

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/745276.html

 

[tomahawk6]

Possibly.

 

[Infanteer]

Okay, T-6 has added some material, so the playground is reopened.  Any posts that really hamper the thread (and I know they'll come) will most likely be removed.  I want to keep this thread open so we don't have to police up Lebanon threads all over the friggen forums.

Anyways, I'll leave off with a good link to a similar discussion on the LF boards:

http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5131022531/m/1351094552/p/1

Originally posted by Abu Buckwheat:

I have seen the Izzies fire with all the tubes of an arty regiment (and include corps level assets too) on a 100 meter Grid of dense, heavily civilian populated urban terrain just because they suspected a PLO mortar was there.  Then they'd kep it up for hours. I mean like 50 rounds simultaneously impacting in one grid and then continuing for three or four hours (check the history of the seige of beirut and you will find this went on for months) in the Middle of Beirut.  They killed dozens of people each day without blinking an eye.  Thats their combat doctrine- All Offensive fire is D.G.A.F.-fire (Don't Give a Fuck).  Unfortunately it doesn't help them in the world of public opinion, they wonder why come off as bloodthirsty & uncontrolled to everyone but us. 

Israel may have to hit Hezbollah - go for it,sock it to 'em but they can't massacre hundreds per day to do it and wonder why the Arab world and the rest of the world are upset.

Another thing, the administration and the Israelis are pushing the belief that allowing so many southern Lebanese civilians to die at Israel's hands is the responsibility of Hezbollah.  They are banking that the destruction of their homes will piss them off so much that they will reject Hezbollah.  Now that concept is just crazy... in fact we have seen this entire operation strengthen Hezbollah's support throught Lebanon and the Arab world.  The people see Hezbollah fighting the people who are bombing their homes.

One final thing.  Deliberately killing UN observers just ensures you will get no support globally.  The belief that, too bad, human shields must be killed to get the one bad guy is not warfare.  Thats murder and no true warrior would respect anyone who kills indiscriminately like that -its no better than the terrorists.  Close in and duke it out with rifles, take your losses but we have to fight like we're professionals.  Still they have little to feel honorable about when they do win these skirmishes.  The UN hit was unjustifiable and it has consequences.  Now no nation will volunteer to guard the N. Israeli border in an international force.  The President backed out officially yesterday.  So Israel loses one major demand  because THEY asked for the International Force, but the UN hit shows that when pushed they would hit anyone that gets in their way, UN/MNF/USMC/USCG/Girl Scouts included.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Looks like it's going now:


http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/01082006/2/world-israel-sends-10-000-troops-southern-lebanon.html
Israel sends up to 10,000 troops into southern Lebanon
32 minutes ago

BEIRUT (AP) - Israel poured up to 10,000 armoured troops into southern Lebanon on Tuesday and sent commando forces deep into the eastern Bekaa Valley where they raided a Hezbollah-run hospital and captured guerrillas during pitched battles, a major escalation of the three-week-old war.

The Israeli military confirmed the attack on the ancient city Baalbek, about 130 kilometres north of Israel. It said troops, ferried in by helicopter, captured an unspecified number guerrillas and all soldiers returned unharmed. The statement gave no other details.


The Baalbek raid was the deepest ground attack on Lebanon since fighting began 21 days ago.


The ferocity of the battles in the Bekaa Valley and across southern Lebanon and the determination of the Israelis to keep fighting quelled expectations for an early ceasefire, although U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said an agreement on how to end the conflict is possible within days, not weeks.


Hezbollah's rocket attacks into Israel, meanwhile, diminished. Hezbollah fired just 10 rockets across the border Tuesday, well below an average of about 100 a day since fighting began.


Early Wednesday, Hezbollah's chief spokesman Hussein Rahal said Israeli troops landed near the Hezbollah-run Dar al-Hikma Hospital in Baalbek, about 15 kilometres from Lebanon's border with Syria.


"A group of Israeli commandos was brought to the hospital by a helicopter. They entered the hospital and are trapped inside as our fighters opened fire on them and fierce fighting is still raging," Rahal said early in the operation.


Rahal dismissed as "untrue" reports the Israelis managed to snatch some patients from the hospital and spirit them away in helicopters.


Fighting between Israelis and Hezbollah guerrillas around the hospital raged for more than four hours and planes dropped flares over the city during the clashes, witnesses said.


They said at least five people were killed as Israeli planes staged more than 10 bombing runs around the hospital, as well as on hills in eastern and northern Baalbek where Hezbollah's supporters live.


Witnesses said the hospital was hit in an Israeli air strike and was burning.


The fighting ended at about 4 a.m. local time.


Residents said the Dar al-Hikma hospital is financed by an Iranian charity, the Imam Khomeini Charitable Society, which is close to Hezbollah. The hospital is also run by people close to the militant group, the residents said on condition of anonymity.


Baalbek is a city with spectacular Roman ruins, as well as the barracks of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards when they trained Hezbollah guerrillas in the 1980s.


The last time Israel forces were known to have gone that far on the ground into Lebanon was in 1994, when they abducted Lebanese guerrilla leader Mustafa Dirani, hoping to use him to obtain information about missing Israeli airman Ron Arad. Dirani was released in a prisoner exchange 10 years later.


In southern Lebanon on Tuesday, up to 10,000 troops in armoured personnel carriers and backed by tanks were operating in Lebanon along the border zone, Israeli defence officials said. Israel called up 30,000 reservists over the weekend and thousands of them were gathering at staging areas on the Israeli side of the border, ready to join the battles.


Israel had 100,000 troops in Lebanon at the height of its 1982 invasion of Lebanon that began an 18-year occupation of the south.


Troops battled guerrillas after Israel ordered its army to punch all the way to the Litani River, about 30 kilometres from the border.

They entered through four different points along the border and moved about 6.5 kilometres inside Lebanon. Israeli officials said their soldiers were to go as far as the Litani and hold the ground until an international peacekeeping force comes ashore.

But the army later said it had distributed leaflets northeast of the river at villages where Hezbollah is active. The leaflets told people to leave, suggesting the new offensive could take Israeli soldiers even deeper into Lebanon.

Despite mounting civilian deaths, President George W. Bush held fast to support for Israel and was pressing for a UN resolution linking a ceasefire with a broader plan for peace in the Middle East. Staking out a different approach, European Union foreign ministers called for an "immediate cessation of hostilities," followed by efforts to agree on a sustainable ceasefire.

U.S. State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said he expects some action in the UN Security Council in the coming days, perhaps this week.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said it is not in Israel's interest to agree to an immediate ceasefire because every day of fighting weakens the guerrillas.

"Every additional day is a day that drains the strength of this cruel enemy," he said.

"Every extra day is a day in which the (army) reduces their capability, contains their firing ability and their ability to hit in the future."

The Israelis want to keep Hezbollah off the border so their patrols and civilians along the fence are not in danger of attack. The army also hopes to push Hezbollah far enough north so most of the guerrillas' rockets cannot reach the Jewish state.

Israel resumed sporadic air strikes - hitting Hezbollah strongholds and supply lines from one end of Lebanon to the other - despite a pledge to suspend such attacks for another day in response to world outrage over the killing of 56 Lebanese in a weekend bombing.

Aid groups had hoped to take advantage of the supposed 48-hour lull in air strikes to take food and medicine to civilians trapped in the south. But Israel denied access to two UN convoys. Others who made the journey described air strikes close to their convoys and bodies along the road.

At nightfall Tuesday, Israeli troops were fighting Hezbollah at several points along the border in intense ground battles. Reporters and Arab television reported especially heavy fighting and Israeli artillery bombardment at the village Aita al-Shaab.

The Israeli army said late Tuesday three Israeli soldiers died and 25 were slightly wounded by small-arms fire and anti-tank rockets in Aita al-Shaab.

Israeli cabinet minister Haim Ramon said the fighting to date had killed about 300 of Hezbollah's main force of 2,000 fighters, which does not include its less-well-trained reserves.

"That's a very hard blow," he said.

Hezbollah has said only 46 of its fighters were killed. Four were lost in battles with Israeli ground troops in Adaisse and Taibeh, near the Christian town Marjayoun, about eight kilometres from the border with Israel, Hezbollah said.

To the east at Kfar Kila, reporters saw at least three air strikes and the thud of artillery shells from Israeli ground troops was constant. About 20 shells landed in the hills around Kfar Kila during a 45-minute period.

Israeli jet fighters also struck deep inside Lebanese territory, hitting Hermel, 120 kilometres north of the Israeli border in the Bekaa Valley. Planes fired at least five air-to-surface missiles on the edge of the town, targeting a road linking eastern Lebanon to western regions and the coastline.

In the west, Israeli ships fired artillery into the villages Mansouri, Shamaa and Teir Harfan around the port city Tyre. No casualties were reported.

Another strike at an area near the Syrian border, about 10 kilometres north of Hermel, targeted the Qaa-Homs road, one of four official crossing points between Lebanon and Syria. Two of the four border crossings are now closed because of damage and repeated air strikes have made the main Beirut-Damascus highway impassable.

Polls in Israel show wall-to-wall support for Israel's fight against Hezbollah, even with Israeli civilians enduring a barrage of rocket fire and the army poised for a sweeping ground offensive that is sure to lead to more casualties.

But the deaths of 56 Lebanese in the devastating weekend strike in Qana focused attention on civilian casualties.

Three more civilians were killed and three seriously wounded when Israeli planes hit a house in the southern Lebanese town Lweizeh, Lebanese security officials said Tuesday.

Also, the Lebanese Red Cross said the bodies of 12 civilians were retrieved from the rubble of buildings destroyed in air strikes on four villages in southern Lebanon and many more were believed still buried. It was not clear when the victims were killed.

At least 532 Lebanese have been killed, including 461 civilians and 25 Lebanese soldiers and at least 46 Hezbollah guerrillas. The health minister said the toll could be as high as 750, including those still buried in rubble or missing. Fifty-four Israelis have died - 36 soldiers, as well as 18 civilians killed in Hezbollah rocket attacks.

Guess we'll have to wait out and see where the chips fall.  God protect anyone that deserves it. 

 

[tamouh]

According to Reuters:
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=TopNews&storyID=2006-08-02T041321Z_01_L30823603_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST.xml&WTmodLoc=Home-C1-TopStories-TopNews-2

"During the night, (Israeli) forces operated in the town of Baalbek," an Israeli army spokeswoman said. "A number of terrorists were also arrested and taken to Israel."


No Israeli troops were wounded in the operation. "The soldiers returned home safely," she said.

Lebanese security sources said at least three low-ranking Hizbollah members were seized in the raid.
It
But at least five members of the same family were killed when warplanes bombed the nearby village of Jammaliyeh during the fighting. Two others were found dead in the rubble of another house, the sources said.

I know the Arab media is stating the raid was an attempt to capture a wounded senior Hezbollah member Muhammad Yezbek, they're stating he wasn't in the hospital and the hospital was surrounded by Hezbollah fighters. I guess the IDF managed to capture couple of fighters and exit the place. It will all be clear in the morning!

What Abu Buckwheat said I've seen in my own eyes during the 1980s visiting my relatives, Israeli missile batteries positions on top of the southern hills of Tripoli launching rounds after rounds of missiles every couple of hours in the direction of Beirut , it used to flare during the evening, a sight I've never had seen before that night.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/MediaNews/2006/08/01/1714131-ap.html
3 major news agencies deny British website claim they faked Lebanon photos

NEW YORK (AP) - Three international news agencies rejected challenges Tuesday to the veracity of photographs of bodies taken in the aftermath of an Israeli air strike in Lebanon, strongly denying the images were staged.
Photographers from The Associated Press, Reuters and Agence France-Presse all covered rescue operations Sunday in Qana, where 56 Lebanese were killed. Many of their photos depicted rescue workers carrying dead children.

A British website, the EU Referendum blog, argued chicanery may have been involved by citing time stamps that went with captions of the photographs.

For example, the website draws attention to a photo by AP's Lefteris Pitarakis time stamped 7:21 a.m., showing a dead girl in an ambulance. Another picture, stamped 10:25 a.m. and taken by AP's Mohammed Zaatari, shows the same girl being loaded onto the ambulance. In a third, by AP photographer Nasser Nasser and stamped 10:44 a.m., a rescue worker carries the girl with no ambulance nearby.

The site suggests these events were staged for effect, a criticism echoed by right-wing U.S. radio talk-show host Rush Limbaugh when he directed listeners to the blog Monday.

"These photographers are obviously willing to participate in propaganda," Limbaugh said.
"They know exactly what's being done, all these photos, bringing the bodies out of the rubble, posing them for the cameras, it's all staged. Every bit of it is staged and the still photographers know it."

The AP said information from its photo editors showed the events were not staged and the time stamps could be misleading for several reasons, including websites using such stamps to show when pictures are posted, not taken. An AFP executive said he was stunned to be questioned about it. Reuters, in a statement, said it categorically rejects any such suggestion.
"It's hard to imagine how someone sitting in an air-conditioned office or broadcast studio many thousands of miles from the scene can decide what occurred on the ground with any degree of accuracy," said Kathleen Carroll, AP's senior vice-president and executive editor.

Carroll said in addition to speaking with photo editors, "I also know from 30 years of experience in this business that you can't get competitive journalists to participate in the kind of (staging) experience that is being described."

Photographers are experienced in recognizing when someone is trying to stage something for their benefit, she said.
"Do you really think these people would risk their lives under Israeli shelling to set up a digging ceremony for dead Lebanese kids?" asked Patrick Baz, Mideast photo director for AFP.
"I'm totally stunned by first the question and I can't imagine that somebody would think something like that would have happened."

The AP had three different photographers who weren't always aware of what the others were doing and filed their images to editors separately, said Santiago Lyon, director of photography.
There are also several reasons not to draw conclusions from time stamps, Lyon said. Following a news event like this, the AP does not distribute pictures sequentially; photos are moved based on news value and how quickly they are available for an editor to transmit.

The AP indicates to its members when they are sent on the wire and member websites sometimes use a different time stamp to show when they are posted.

 

[GAP]

Pull Canada out of UN
Too many questions linger over world body's activities
By Ezra Levant  July 31, 2006 Calgary Sun
http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Columnists/Levant_Ezra/2006/07/31/1711362.html

Until last week, a lot of people probably thought: "an answer to the war is to station some United Nations troops between Israel and Lebanon."

But because of the tragic deaths of a Canadian peacekeeper in a UN bunker near the border, everyone now knows that, in fact, the UN has been there for years -- since 1978, in fact.

It didn't stop terrorist attacks on Israel in the past, it isn't stopping the war today, and it won't do anything in the future, either.

Which raises the question: What exactly is the UN doing there?

Prime Minister Stephen Harper asked that in a different way; he wanted to know what the UN "observers" -- including a Canadian soldier -- were still doing there in the middle of a hot shooting war.
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