Leave Policy – Weekends (time off) Merged]

[PMedMoe]

I'm not sure what the regulations are, however, I would consider wearing either DEU (or Mess Kit) for a wedding reception or a ball (not a masquerade.....) but not for a night out on the town (supper and casino) no matter how "fancy" it might be.

Just my  :2c:

 

[agc]

15. Only service dress is designed for unrestricted wear on all occasions. With jacket and tie (No. 3 duty order), it equates to a civilian business suit. With medals and accoutrements (Nos. 1 and 1A orders), it is formal attire suitable for all ceremonial occasions.

From Ch 2 of the Dress Instructions.

 

[Frehas]

I am reg force

I am just looking for a reason to wear my whites for the first time


I did some more digging, Whites are service dress No. 3B (salt and peppers are too but full whites may be worn in summer months)
So with the above quote I am guessing technically I can wear whites wherever however I still have to maintain a high level of appearance and mannerisms while doing so.

Still on the fence about this but now that I know its ok, I may go for it.

 

[Snakedoc]

As a mbr of the reg force, there are no regulations precluding you from wearing your service dress (No.3) uniform at anytime and No.1's for appropriate ceremonial occasions (all within Canada).  In fact, in many cases as mentioned above, mbrs are not even allowed ashore unless they are in uniform such as in a foreign port visit or even for RMC cadets when first starting out.  Op Connection is another example of the CF's endorsement of mbr's wearing their uniform in public (particularly when going to and from work).

However, being in uniform is a highly visible indicator of you being in the CF and as such, you are required to act accordingly and not bring a negative image to the CF.  In the public's eyes, you are held to a higher standard.  Regardless of whether you are in uniform or not, you are bound by the Code of Service Discipline (CSD) and CF regulations... but this is even more readily apparent when you are in uniform.  I think it is great when I see CF mbrs wearing their uniform in public.  People shouldn't feel uncomfortable with their image as a CF mbr and shouldn't feel a need to 'hide' themselves when in public. 

It's actually quite common, particularly in the US, for military mbrs to go to dinner in uniform and I've even seen US Marines walking around casinos in their dress uniforms (I'd probably avoid the casinos personally).  As long as you arn't doing anything illegal and act to the standard expected of a military mbr, then you are fine.  Know the regulations and in particular the dress regulations, act accordingly as a CF mbr, and you won't have any problems.  It's also a great opportunity to answer questions from civilians regarding the CF and your role in the community.

When it comes to reservists, permission from the CoC is not required when attending a military event etc.  So for example, if you were attending a military wedding, remembrance day ceremony in a different city (within Canada), military fundraiser, OR Canadian Cadet Organization annual review (cadets is sponsored and administered by the CF with support from civilian organizations).  Unlike the reg force, permission IS required from the CoC if you are going to wear your uniform at a purely civilian function such as a civilian wedding or just for dinner when you are not in the process of going to and from work.  Again, discretion is usually used and as long as you act accordingly, there should be no problems.  The CSD should also be mentioned as reservists are not always governed by the CSD but if you are a Class A reservist and on a military establishment OR in uniform (whether on military property or not), you are subject to the CSD and the obligations that come with that.  Class B and C reservists are essentially treated as reg force members and subject to the CSD at all times while on Class B/C.

Hope that helps and yes, I think you should go to the wedding in uniform

 

[Dkeh]

...just for dinner when you are not in the process of going to and from work...

Does this mean I can safely stop and grab a quick meal after weekly training without changing beforehand? To me, this falls under traveling home from training.

Thanks!

 

[George Wallace]

When it comes to reservists, permission from the CoC is not required when attending a military event etc.  So for example, if you were attending a military wedding, remembrance day ceremony in a different city (within Canada), military fundraiser, OR Canadian Cadet Organization annual review (cadets is sponsored and administered by the CF with support from civilian organizations).  Unlike the reg force, permission IS required from the CoC if you are going to wear your uniform at a purely civilian function such as a civilian wedding or just for dinner when you are not in the process of going to and from work.  Again, discretion is usually used and as long as you act accordingly, there should be no problems.  The CSD should also be mentioned as reservists are not always governed by the CSD but if you are a Class A reservist and on a military establishment OR in uniform (whether on military property or not), you are subject to the CSD and the obligations that come with that.  Class B and C reservists are essentially treated as reg force members and subject to the CSD at all times while on Class B/C.

I have no idea where  you came up with this information and how you feel that Reservists are not held to the Code of Service Discipline at any time, under any conditions........I would like to call you on this and state that this above statement by YOU is complete Bull Shyte.

 

[dangerboy]

A reserve in uniform is subject to the code of service discipline.  QR&O Vol II, Chapter 102, article 102.1

The following persons are subject to the Code of Service Discipline:

  (a) an officer or non-commissioned member of the regular force;
 
  (b) an officer or non-commissioned member of the special force;

  (c) an officer or non-commissioned member of the reserve force when the officer or non-commissioned member is

  (i) undergoing drill or training, whether in uniform or not,

(ii) in uniform,
  (iii) on duty,

  (iv) [Repealed, S.C. 1998, c. 35, s. 19],

  (v) called out under Part VI in aid of the civil power,

  (vi) called out on service,
 
  (vii) placed on active service,

  (viii) in or on any vessel, vehicle or aircraft of the Canadian Forces or in or on any defence establishment or work for defence,
 
  (ix) serving with any unit or other element of the regular force or the special force, or
 
  (x) present, whether in uniform or not, at any drill or training of a unit or other element of the Canadian Forces;

 

[Snakedoc]

Does this mean I can safely stop and grab a quick meal after weekly training without changing beforehand? To me, this falls under traveling home from training.

Thanks!

That is correct!

I have no idea where  you came up with this information and how you feel that Reservists are not held to the Code of Service Discipline at any time, under any conditions........I would like to call you on this and state that this above statement by YOU is complete Bull Shyte.

Thanks dangerboy, you beat me to the reference wrt QR&O Vol II, Chapter 102, article 102.1

In addition, the JAG office provides some clarification in the following link:
http://www.forces.gc.ca/jag/publications/defence-defense/csdme-cdmmoi-eng.asp

"When am I subject to the CSD?

If you are a member of the Regular Force you are always subject to the CSD, both inside and outside Canada. If you are a member of the Reserve Force, you are subject to the CSD:

-while undergoing drill or training (whether you are in uniform or not)
-whenever you are in uniform
-while on any military duty
-24 hours a day, 7 days a week during any period of full time service (Class "B" or "C" service)
-whenever you are present on defence property
-whenever you are in a vehicle, ship or aircraft of the CF"


Cheers!

 

[bcbarman]

One other point to add, a "Fancy Dress Ball" is a British way of saying costume party.  Since most of the QR&O's were borrowed from the Brits back in the day, and then grew to the truly Canadian document we have today, its likely that the language has not changed.

A translation from legaleses: you may not wear your current uniform to a costume party. Old greens are acceptable.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

:facepalm:  I just knew this was going to happen.  :facepalm:

 

[CombatDoc]

Unless you're planning on singing "You've lost that lovin' feeling" to a female aerospace engineer while dressed in your whites, my recommendation is that you don't wear them to your social function.  Wear nice civilian clothes instead.

 

[Pusser]

From an etiquette perspective (regulations notwithstanding), if there is no military connection, one should not be randomly wearing a uniform.  It's all about dressing for the occasion.  Although Number 3s are the military equivalent of a business suit, that doesn't mean that a business suit and your uniform are interchangeable. 
If you're attending a civilian event as a representative of the CF (e.g. CF Appreciation nights) then a uniform is appropriate, but if you are attending as just another attendee, then wearing a uniform may not be appropriate.

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

From an etiquette perspective (regulations notwithstanding), if there is no military connection, one should not be randomly wearing a uniform.  It's all about dressing for the occasion.  Although Number 3s are the military equivalent of a business suit, that doesn't mean that a business suit and your uniform are interchangeable. 
If you're attending a civilian event as a representative of the CF (e.g. CF Appreciation nights) then a uniform is appropriate, but if you are attending as just another attendee, then wearing a uniform may not be appropriate.

How does this fit with the CDS CANFORGEN where Gen Hillier encouraged CF Mbrs to wear No 3 order of dress at any occasion where a business suit would be appropriate ?

 

[Furniture]

I've noticed a tendency among those who have been in since the 90s-early 2000s to avoid wearing the uniform unless specifically required to do so. I personally see no issue with the wearing of DEUs when the occasion calls for formal wear and you aren't doing anything inappropriate, in reality the regulations don't either as already posted above.

Wearing a uniform and being seen as a respectable member of the CF only further enhances our public image and helps people feel a connection with their military.

 

[Halifax Tar]

For those who have been around for a while, the old 'Rigger Runs' of the past are frowned upon.

I just left the Navy in Aug last year and we still looked for any reason we could to have rigger runs, in foreign ports mind you...  In fact during fleet week in NYC we were only allowed off the ship in our whites.  Some didnt always return properly turned out but we certainly did leave that way.  :facepalm:

 

[Snakedoc]

I do notice that general trend as well WeatherdoG, not sure if it's completely accurate however.  Perhaps it's just a general uneasiness with being in uniform in public among CF mbrs and a constant fear of someone screwing up.  Like you said, as long as you act appropriately, it shouldn't be a problem.  The regs are the regs and then there's common practice that may differ by command/organization/generation/culture.

Rig runs are still quite common after mess dinners!  For the Wardroom at least...though I have seen other messes go out for their own too in the past.  In terms of it being frowned upon...possibly but unofficially? Though I've seen CO's and XO's partake before as well...not doing anything stupid but just supporting a local civilian establishment after a mess dinner  ;D

You can't take ALL the fun out of the navy! 

 

[Pusser]

How does this fit with the CDS CANFORGEN where Gen Hillier encouraged CF Mbrs to wear No 3 order of dress at any occasion where a business suit would be appropriate ?

I suppose it's part of my background in the Wardroom, where we were always taught (and expected) to keep a decent civilian wardrobe - the idea being that as officers, we were expected to be presentable in civilian clothing as we were not supposed to wear a uniform all the time.  This is still the norm with the Brits:  in Canada, a formal mess function means everybody wears mess kit, regardless of who's coming.  In the UK, you only wear mess kit when it's a members only event (e.g. mess dinner).  With any other formal event (e.g. dine the spouses), a dinner jacket (i.e. tuxedo) is expected and one would look (and be considered) a right fool for wearing your mess kit.

More to the point of this question, I think it's largely a matter of what you're comfortable with.  It really does depend on the occasion.  I suggest looking at it this way:  Is wearing your uniform to take your date out to dinner not the same as Sidney Crosby wearing his Penguins jersey to take out his date?  Is there anything wrong with this?  Probably not, but is it appropriate?  Would you be comfortable and/or concerned about what others are thinking?

 

[George Wallace]

When it comes to reservists, permission from the CoC is not required when attending a military event etc.  So for example, if you were attending a military wedding, remembrance day ceremony in a different city (within Canada), military fundraiser, OR Canadian Cadet Organization annual review (cadets is sponsored and administered by the CF with support from civilian organizations). 

You can not have it both ways......In your example, the if the Reserve member is wearing a uniform, or representing the CF in any way, even out of uniform, ( This is the way I interpreted your statement.) they do fall under the CSD.  If they are participating in any function as a "civilian", and showing/indicating no affiliation to the CF, then I agree with you.



[Edit to add]  Perhaps you remember a few years back the Reservist in BC who was writting letters to the Editor, along with his Mom, protesting the Afghan mission, and signing his name with his rank.  Here is a case of someone, a Reservist, reprsenting himself as a member of the CF.  That would, in my eyes, fall under the CSD.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

QR & O, Vol 2, Ch 102, Sect 1, Art 102.01 (1)(c)

102.01 – PERSONS SUBJECT TO THE CODE OF SERVICE DISCIPLINE

Section 60 of the National Defence Act provides:

“60. (1) The following persons are subject to the Code of Service Discipline:

(c) an officer or non-commissioned member of the reserve force when the officer or non-commissioned member is

(i) undergoing drill or training, whether in uniform or not,

(ii) in uniform,

(iii) on duty,

(iv) [Repealed, S.C. 1998, c. 35, s. 19],

(v) called out under Part VI in aid of the civil power,

(vi) called out on service,

(vii) placed on active service,

(viii) in or on any vessel, vehicle or aircraft of the Canadian Forces or in or on any defence establishment or work for defence,

(ix) serving with any unit or other element of the regular force or the special force, or

(x) present, whether in uniform or not, at any drill or training of a unit or other element of the Canadian Forces;


Unfortunately the guy making comments in the media and signing his name/rank doesn't appear to be subject to the CSD.  But there could be something else somewhere about 'comms with the media' that might add to this one QR & O ref.

*just noticed the QR & O already is posted.  :facepalm: 

 

[George Wallace]

QR & O, Vol 2, Ch 102, Sect 1, Art 102.01 (1)(c)

102.01 – PERSONS SUBJECT TO THE CODE OF SERVICE DISCIPLINE

Section 60 of the National Defence Act provides:

“60. (1) The following persons are subject to the Code of Service Discipline:

(c) an officer or non-commissioned member of the reserve force when the officer or non-commissioned member is

(i) undergoing drill or training, whether in uniform or not,

(ii) in uniform,

(iii) on duty,

(iv) [Repealed, S.C. 1998, c. 35, s. 19],

(v) called out under Part VI in aid of the civil power,

(vi) called out on service,

(vii) placed on active service,

(viii) in or on any vessel, vehicle or aircraft of the Canadian Forces or in or on any defence establishment or work for defence,

(ix) serving with any unit or other element of the regular force or the special force, or

(x) present, whether in uniform or not, at any drill or training of a unit or other element of the Canadian Forces;


Unfortunately the guy making comments in the media and signing his name/rank doesn't appear to be subject to the CSD.  But there could be something else somewhere about 'comms with the media' that might add to this one QR & O ref.

You are all quoting the same fragment of the CSD.  Read and interpret some of the fol:

(2) Every person subject to the Code of Service Discipline under subsection (1) at the time of the alleged commission by the person of a service offence continues to be liable to be charged, dealt with and tried in respect of that offence under the Code of Service Discipline notwithstanding that the person may have, since the commission of that offence, ceased to be a person described in subsection (1).

(3) Every person who, since allegedly committing a service offence, has ceased to be a person described in subsection (1), shall for the purposes of the Code of Service Discipline be deemed, for the period during which under that Code he is liable to be charged, dealt with and tried, to have the same status and rank that he held immediately before so ceasing to be a person described in subsection (1).”

For our Reservist representing himself as a member of the CF in his letters to the Editor:

19.36 – DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION OR OPINION

(1) For the purposes of this article, the adjective “military” shall be construed as relating not only to the Canadian Forces but also to the armed forces of any country.

(2) Subject to article 19.375 (Communications to News Agencies), no officer or non-commissioned member shall without permission obtained under article 19.37 (Permission to Communicate Information):

(a) publish in any form whatever or communicate directly or indirectly or otherwise disclose to an unauthorized person official information or the contents of an unpublished or classified official document or the contents thereof;

(b) use that information or document for a private purpose;

(c) publish in any form whatever any military information or the member’s views on any military subject to unauthorized persons;

(d) deliver publicly, or record for public delivery, either directly or through the medium of radio or television, a lecture, discourse or answers to questions relating to a military subject;

(f) publish the member’s opinions on any military question that is under consideration by superior authorities;

(g) take part in public in a discussion relating to orders, regulations or instructions issued by the member’s superiors;

(h) disclose to an unauthorized person, without the authority of the department, agency or other body concerned, any information acquired in an official capacity while seconded, attached or loaned to that department, agency or other body;

(i) furnish to any person, not otherwise authorized to receive them, official reports, correspondence or other documents, or copies thereof; or

(j) publish in writing or deliver any lecture, address or broadcast in any dealing with a subject of a controversial nature affecting other departments of the public service or pertaining to public policy.

(3) This article does not apply to a writing, lecture, address or broadcast confined exclusively to members of the Canadian Forces.


19.37 – PERMISSION TO COMMUNICATE INFORMATION

(1) Permission for the purposes of article 19.36 (Disclosure of Information or Opinion) may be granted by the Chief of the Defence Staff or such other authority as he may designate.

(2) Permission given under paragraph (1):

(a) does not have the effect of endorsing anything said or done by the person to whom it is given;

(b) may not be referred to in any way; and

(c) is given on the basis that no statement implying endorsement on behalf of the Crown will be included in what is said or done.




19.375 – COMMUNICATIONS TO NEWS AGENCIES

(1) Subject to paragraphs (2) and (3), any communication concerning or affecting the Canadian Forces or any part thereof that it may be considered desirable to make to the press or any other agencies concerned with the dissemination of news or opinions will be made by the Minister or an officer or official designated by the Minister.

(2) An officer commanding a command, formation, base, unit or element may make communications to the press or other news agencies when they concern or affect only the command, formation, base, unit or element under the officer’s command and do not involve enunciation, defence or criticism, expressed or implied, of service, departmental or government policy.

(3) As it is desirable that the public should be acquainted with conditions of life in the service and that local interest be encouraged, an officer commanding a command, formation, base, unit or element is authorized at the officer’s discretion to invite local representatives of the press and other news agencies to visit the command formation, base, unit or element under the officer’s command and to furnish to them, subject to paragraph (2), such information as the officer may consider suitable for the purpose.