George Wallace
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Colin Parkinson
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He can't even lie well....
McG
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When you go through that discussion, all of the guys that claim to have fought the MGS seem to have high praise for it.Spencer100 said:
http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/672198221/m/6330088661001?r=5990061761001#5990061761001
http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/672198221/m/6330088661001?r=7400030761001#7400030761001
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those are interesting reports. Now, before armchair generals come out of the woodwork and claim that the Leo 2A6M CAN was an error, consider the qualified statements, such as "in urban fighting" and the author's consideration for collateral damage.
As stated before and I'll state again, the MGS is no tank, it has a niche with the U.S., but it's not for us.
As stated before and I'll state again, the MGS is no tank, it has a niche with the U.S., but it's not for us.
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The name of the system says it all - Mobile Gun System. Its job is to support the soldiers of the SBCT. I want to point out that Stryker battalion commanders love to have a platoon of Abrams attached to them which has occured a number of times in Iraq.
daftandbarmy
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Other types of 'Mobile Gun Systems' have been used in COIN ops for decades by other countries who concurrently maintained large, tracked armour inventories. That doesn't mean that we have to buy into the concept on the 'me too' basis, but it's interesting nonetheless that these armies felt the need to design and field a totally wheeled armoured vehicle, mounting a large gun, in addition to their tracked armour fleets. Maybe we need to accept that acquiring vehicles like this is just part of the evolutionary process towards being a fully COIN capable army?
Some examples (that look amazingly similar to the MGS) below:
Panhard
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panhard_AML
Saladin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvis_Saladin
AMX 10
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMX_10_RC
Centauro
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centauro
Some examples (that look amazingly similar to the MGS) below:
Panhard
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panhard_AML
Saladin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvis_Saladin
AMX 10
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMX_10_RC
Centauro
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centauro
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"Some examples (that look amazingly similar to the MGS) below"
Crikey D&B, is that the product of Para AFV recognition? Wheels. Check. Gun. Check. CG. 200m. Big armoured thing crossing your front. 1 round HEAT. In your own time. Fire.
Crikey D&B, is that the product of Para AFV recognition? Wheels. Check. Gun. Check. CG. 200m. Big armoured thing crossing your front. 1 round HEAT. In your own time. Fire.
daftandbarmy
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Kirkhill said:"Some examples (that look amazingly similar to the MGS) below"
Crikey D&B, is that the product of Para AFV recognition? Wheels. Check. Gun. Check. CG. 200m. 1 round HEAT. In your own time. Fire.
As long as it has a BV and a crew that can use it to produce a nice big steaming mug of Rosey Lee for me & me muckers, what do I care? ;D
daftandbarmy
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And the Fox... which I worked with in 5AB Bde. Run by the Household Division chaps. Very useful. Deployed from the back of C130Js as part of airlanding operations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_Armoured_Reconnaissance_Vehicle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_Armoured_Reconnaissance_Vehicle
George Wallace
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The Fox was a nice piece of kit. First saw them in Fallingbostel when some were in from Berlin.
I do have problems with many British AFVs, in that they are a "plumber's nightmare" to maintain.
Why was the Fox removed from Service in the 1990's?
I do have problems with many British AFVs, in that they are a "plumber's nightmare" to maintain.
Why was the Fox removed from Service in the 1990's?
Colin Parkinson
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They did suffer from a high centre of gravity, but I think the real reason was downsizing the army, they tossed all of their wheeled recce, including the Vixen which was just starting to be made. (Vixen was the next generation of Ferret)
GK .Dundas
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The Fox was pulled by the Brit Safety Nazis after the Territorials had a series of accidents involving the Fox.Although it was felt by some of the people involved that the problem could have been solved by better driver skills. But it saved dollars or in this case pounds sterling and the reason you have a military after all is so you can cut it budget isn't it?
A further note safety was also the alleged reason for scrapping the Scorpion as well the fumes from the breech were considered toxic and rather then increase the power of the turret ventilation system they elected to scrap the vehicle. Btw thats why we got all that 76 MM in the early to mid 90's for the cougars
A further note safety was also the alleged reason for scrapping the Scorpion as well the fumes from the breech were considered toxic and rather then increase the power of the turret ventilation system they elected to scrap the vehicle. Btw thats why we got all that 76 MM in the early to mid 90's for the cougars
daftandbarmy
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Yes, I recall seeing a Fox from the 'XYZ Yeomanry' on it's side on Salisbury Plain one winter. Frozen tank tracks + high camber + high speed = Timber!!!
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http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/02/army_new_MGS_080204w/
Mobile Gun System brings the heat in Iraq
Soldiers like Stryker system’s firepower, but hope for cooler crew space
By Matthew Cox - Staff writer
Posted : Monday Feb 4, 2008 13:23:38 EST
CONTINGENCY OPERATING BASE SPEICHER, Iraq — The Stryker Mobile Gun System’s automatic loader clinks and clanks as it feeds a high-explosive shell into the breech.
A few seconds later, the menacing cannon fires with a thunderous crack, sending a 105mm round downrange, where it blows a big hole in a dirt berm.
The new direct-fire weapon arrived in Iraq for the first time when the 4th Stryker Brigade Combat Team, 2nd Infantry Division, deployed 10 months ago. The MGS is one of 10 variants of the Stryker series of wheeled and armored vehicle.
The soldiers who spoke with Army Times generally approved of the new vehicle’s battlefield performance, despite difficulties caused by design flaws. The most immediate shortcoming was the vehicle’s lack of air conditioning, an omission that — until a solution was fielded — had crewmen patrolling while hooked up to intravenous fluids to counter triple-digit temperatures under the summer sun.
Nevertheless, “the MGS is a fine vehicle and has proven itself here multiple times,” said 4th Battalion, 9th Infantry Regiment, Command Sgt. Major Richard Leirdahl.
Bravo Company of 4-9 learned just how effective MGS firepower can be in May, when one part of the unit drove into an ambush near Taji.
Enemy forces detonated a huge bomb beneath one of Bravo Company’s Strykers. The blast destroyed the vehicle, killing two soldiers and blowing the leg off another.
Small groups of enemy fighters began rushing the Bravo Company soldiers as they tried to help the wounded, recalled Capt. Jack Moore, who commands Bravo 4-9.
Bravo Company soldiers fought off their attackers, but could not knock out the intense small-arms fire that was coming from a house about 300 meters away.
One of the company’s MGSs rolled into the fray and blasted the house with three high-explosive rounds.
“It destroyed the house,” said Sgt. Jesse Ryland, a squad leader in 4th Platoon. “They are pretty impressive.”
Each battalion in the brigade has nine MGS Strykers, each of which is armed with a stabilized 105mm cannon that can shoot on the move and destroy hardened targets out to 3,000 meters.
The MGS can carry up to 18 rounds of ammunition and is capable of firing six rounds per minute. It carries anti-tank rounds in its arsenal, but the MGS “isn’t meant to go up against tanks; it’s meant to support the infantry,” said Moore.
The MGS’s turret can rotate 360 degrees, Moore said, making it effective at scanning for enemy threats while on the move.
Its vehicle commander and gunner “can just sit there and spin as the vehicle goes down the road,” Moore said at a Jan. 28 live-fire exercise here at Memorial Range, where MGSs from B and C companies practiced firing at targets out to 1,000 meters. “I love this piece of equipment.”
In addition to anti-tank and high-explosive rounds, MGS can also fire anti-personnel ammunition known as canister rounds. Each canister round fires 3,200 tungsten carbide balls that resemble 00 buck shot.
When fired, these rounds turn the MGS into a giant shotgun, shredding a path 75 meters wide out to 300 meters.
“They are also good for disabling threat vehicles,” said Sgt. 1st Class Benjamin Tucker, 4th Platoon sergeant and MGS vehicle commander. “It peppers the whole thing, obliterates the windows and anybody who is inside.”
Each time the cannon fires, the MGS lurches backward from the force of the recoil.
“We don’t feel that inside,” Tucker said. “The stabilization system is really good.”
Twice during the Jan. 28 live fire, two MGS Strykers experienced misfires. One MGS crew solved the problem by extracting the round and reseating it into the breech. The other MGS had to come off the firing line.
Keeping cool critical
Despite the misfires, Tucker said the vehicle has few maintenance problems.
MGS crewmen here praise the effectiveness of the system but say the design needs improving.
The main concern of the unit before it deployed in April was that the MGS’s cramped crew space leaves no room for air conditioning.
In the summer, three-man MGS crews had to operate in dangerously hot conditions, Moore said.
“In Baqubah this summer, it was literally 147 degrees in there,” Moore said, describing how they had to hang IV bags inside each MGS Stryker. “We forced them to eat and drink, but we still had guys riding down the road with IVs in their arms.”
As a quick fix, Program Executive Office Soldier supplied 4-9 in July with special micro-coolant vests that aircrew members wear to cope with the extreme heat in helicopter cockpits. These specialty garments, worn underneath body armor, feature coiled tubing that runs throughout the interior of each vest. Two small compressors mounted on the outside of each MGS circulate chilled water through the tubes.
“It keeps the core cool … some guys actually have to turn down the dial,” Tucker said.
MGS gunner Cpl. Matthew Andrews agreed the vests made a huge difference.
“They work pretty well,” Andrews said. “It beats pouring water over yourself.”
But that doesn’t solve the problem of computer systems overheating in some of the MGS Strykers, said Leirdahl.
Another challenge with the MGS design is that the huge turret partially overhangs the vehicle commander’s and gunner’s hatches, making quick escape no easy task, Tucker said.
“Everybody has their own technique for getting in and out of the vehicle,” he said.
To compensate, they carry only the essentials on their body armor vests — ammunition and first-aid gear. In addition, crew members regularly practice evacuation drills.
Leirdahl maintains that the hatches on the MGS are noticeably smaller than those on other Stryker variants, creating a safety hazard.
“Reaching down and trying to pull a soldier out is difficult because the hatch circumference is smaller than hatches on other Strykers,” he said.
The gun system has had its problems. In early 2005, before the weapon was fielded, Stryker program officials decided to redesign the sophisticated loader on the MGS to prevent jamming problems. The decision delayed fielding of the system until early 2007. Program officials had hoped to begin fielding MGS in September 2006.
The Army wants 72 MGS Strykers to outfit its seven planned Stryker brigades.
Besides the firepower MGS brings to the battlefield, 4-9 soldiers maintain that the huge cannon on this new Stryker variant also gives them a psychological edge when they roll through populated areas.
“They have seen Strykers, but they hadn’t seen an MGS,” Tucker said. “You just see the heads turn and the mouths hang wide open when we pass.”
Mobile Gun System brings the heat in Iraq
Soldiers like Stryker system’s firepower, but hope for cooler crew space
By Matthew Cox - Staff writer
Posted : Monday Feb 4, 2008 13:23:38 EST
CONTINGENCY OPERATING BASE SPEICHER, Iraq — The Stryker Mobile Gun System’s automatic loader clinks and clanks as it feeds a high-explosive shell into the breech.
A few seconds later, the menacing cannon fires with a thunderous crack, sending a 105mm round downrange, where it blows a big hole in a dirt berm.
The new direct-fire weapon arrived in Iraq for the first time when the 4th Stryker Brigade Combat Team, 2nd Infantry Division, deployed 10 months ago. The MGS is one of 10 variants of the Stryker series of wheeled and armored vehicle.
The soldiers who spoke with Army Times generally approved of the new vehicle’s battlefield performance, despite difficulties caused by design flaws. The most immediate shortcoming was the vehicle’s lack of air conditioning, an omission that — until a solution was fielded — had crewmen patrolling while hooked up to intravenous fluids to counter triple-digit temperatures under the summer sun.
Nevertheless, “the MGS is a fine vehicle and has proven itself here multiple times,” said 4th Battalion, 9th Infantry Regiment, Command Sgt. Major Richard Leirdahl.
Bravo Company of 4-9 learned just how effective MGS firepower can be in May, when one part of the unit drove into an ambush near Taji.
Enemy forces detonated a huge bomb beneath one of Bravo Company’s Strykers. The blast destroyed the vehicle, killing two soldiers and blowing the leg off another.
Small groups of enemy fighters began rushing the Bravo Company soldiers as they tried to help the wounded, recalled Capt. Jack Moore, who commands Bravo 4-9.
Bravo Company soldiers fought off their attackers, but could not knock out the intense small-arms fire that was coming from a house about 300 meters away.
One of the company’s MGSs rolled into the fray and blasted the house with three high-explosive rounds.
“It destroyed the house,” said Sgt. Jesse Ryland, a squad leader in 4th Platoon. “They are pretty impressive.”
Each battalion in the brigade has nine MGS Strykers, each of which is armed with a stabilized 105mm cannon that can shoot on the move and destroy hardened targets out to 3,000 meters.
The MGS can carry up to 18 rounds of ammunition and is capable of firing six rounds per minute. It carries anti-tank rounds in its arsenal, but the MGS “isn’t meant to go up against tanks; it’s meant to support the infantry,” said Moore.
The MGS’s turret can rotate 360 degrees, Moore said, making it effective at scanning for enemy threats while on the move.
Its vehicle commander and gunner “can just sit there and spin as the vehicle goes down the road,” Moore said at a Jan. 28 live-fire exercise here at Memorial Range, where MGSs from B and C companies practiced firing at targets out to 1,000 meters. “I love this piece of equipment.”
In addition to anti-tank and high-explosive rounds, MGS can also fire anti-personnel ammunition known as canister rounds. Each canister round fires 3,200 tungsten carbide balls that resemble 00 buck shot.
When fired, these rounds turn the MGS into a giant shotgun, shredding a path 75 meters wide out to 300 meters.
“They are also good for disabling threat vehicles,” said Sgt. 1st Class Benjamin Tucker, 4th Platoon sergeant and MGS vehicle commander. “It peppers the whole thing, obliterates the windows and anybody who is inside.”
Each time the cannon fires, the MGS lurches backward from the force of the recoil.
“We don’t feel that inside,” Tucker said. “The stabilization system is really good.”
Twice during the Jan. 28 live fire, two MGS Strykers experienced misfires. One MGS crew solved the problem by extracting the round and reseating it into the breech. The other MGS had to come off the firing line.
Keeping cool critical
Despite the misfires, Tucker said the vehicle has few maintenance problems.
MGS crewmen here praise the effectiveness of the system but say the design needs improving.
The main concern of the unit before it deployed in April was that the MGS’s cramped crew space leaves no room for air conditioning.
In the summer, three-man MGS crews had to operate in dangerously hot conditions, Moore said.
“In Baqubah this summer, it was literally 147 degrees in there,” Moore said, describing how they had to hang IV bags inside each MGS Stryker. “We forced them to eat and drink, but we still had guys riding down the road with IVs in their arms.”
As a quick fix, Program Executive Office Soldier supplied 4-9 in July with special micro-coolant vests that aircrew members wear to cope with the extreme heat in helicopter cockpits. These specialty garments, worn underneath body armor, feature coiled tubing that runs throughout the interior of each vest. Two small compressors mounted on the outside of each MGS circulate chilled water through the tubes.
“It keeps the core cool … some guys actually have to turn down the dial,” Tucker said.
MGS gunner Cpl. Matthew Andrews agreed the vests made a huge difference.
“They work pretty well,” Andrews said. “It beats pouring water over yourself.”
But that doesn’t solve the problem of computer systems overheating in some of the MGS Strykers, said Leirdahl.
Another challenge with the MGS design is that the huge turret partially overhangs the vehicle commander’s and gunner’s hatches, making quick escape no easy task, Tucker said.
“Everybody has their own technique for getting in and out of the vehicle,” he said.
To compensate, they carry only the essentials on their body armor vests — ammunition and first-aid gear. In addition, crew members regularly practice evacuation drills.
Leirdahl maintains that the hatches on the MGS are noticeably smaller than those on other Stryker variants, creating a safety hazard.
“Reaching down and trying to pull a soldier out is difficult because the hatch circumference is smaller than hatches on other Strykers,” he said.
The gun system has had its problems. In early 2005, before the weapon was fielded, Stryker program officials decided to redesign the sophisticated loader on the MGS to prevent jamming problems. The decision delayed fielding of the system until early 2007. Program officials had hoped to begin fielding MGS in September 2006.
The Army wants 72 MGS Strykers to outfit its seven planned Stryker brigades.
Besides the firepower MGS brings to the battlefield, 4-9 soldiers maintain that the huge cannon on this new Stryker variant also gives them a psychological edge when they roll through populated areas.
“They have seen Strykers, but they hadn’t seen an MGS,” Tucker said. “You just see the heads turn and the mouths hang wide open when we pass.”
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Well... no air conditioning. The guys in our Leopards can relate to that.
As everyone has stated, this thig is not a tank and not intended to go up against any.
However, as an infantry support role - fighting in built up areas, it's ability to fire canister rounds & HE make it an important item on the Coy commander's tool belt.
As everyone has stated, this thig is not a tank and not intended to go up against any.
However, as an infantry support role - fighting in built up areas, it's ability to fire canister rounds & HE make it an important item on the Coy commander's tool belt.
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I take issue with this head hunting news piece. MGS Poorly in Field? Hardly, aside from the computer problems, the article is nothing but petty complaints from Soldiers. Nothing new there.
Computer system that constantly locks up. I wonder which computer? The Stryker has several. I would contribute this in large part to the high temperatures inside the vehicle. We have not seen this in my battalion, but we have yet to see anything outside of Pennsylvania, but they are going to be rectifying that this year.
Extremely high heat in the crew compartment No AC in an armoured vehicle in the desert equals high heat in the crew compartment, I fail to see how this makes the MGS fair poorly in the field.
Shortage of spare parts This is the fault with General Dynamics Land Systems logistics, not with how the MGS performs.
A key part was held up in customs on its way to Iraq Again, a logistics issue, not a vehicle performance issue.
Searing heat in the vehicles forces them to wear a complicated cooling suit that circulates cold water through tubing under their armor I wish that we would have had these when we were sitting in armored vehicles in 147 heat.
Soldiers often complain the suit makes them cold Waaaaaahhhhhh! Suck it up and be thankful you are cold during the Month of Fire.
Vehicle’s lack of air conditioning This will be rectified with AC retrofit kits. My battalion has already received theirs and our GDLS tech reps are installing them.
Two MGS Strykers experienced misfires. One MGS crew solved the problem by extracting the round and reseating it into the breech Misfires are not necessarily due to the gun system, more than likely ammunition related or operator error as stated above. Everyone trains misfire procedures. You haven’t lived until you have shaken a 120mm round out of a mortar tube and do the long lonely walk to the dud pit.
MGS’s cramped crew space leaves no room for air conditioning Cramped? It’s an armored vehicle, and AC will be added during retrofit.
Computer systems overheating in some of the MGS Strykers Again, which computer?
Turret partially overhangs the vehicle commander’s and gunner’s hatches, making quick escape no easy task The only quick way out of a Stryker is dropping the back hatch.
Computer system that constantly locks up. I wonder which computer? The Stryker has several. I would contribute this in large part to the high temperatures inside the vehicle. We have not seen this in my battalion, but we have yet to see anything outside of Pennsylvania, but they are going to be rectifying that this year.
Extremely high heat in the crew compartment No AC in an armoured vehicle in the desert equals high heat in the crew compartment, I fail to see how this makes the MGS fair poorly in the field.
Shortage of spare parts This is the fault with General Dynamics Land Systems logistics, not with how the MGS performs.
A key part was held up in customs on its way to Iraq Again, a logistics issue, not a vehicle performance issue.
Searing heat in the vehicles forces them to wear a complicated cooling suit that circulates cold water through tubing under their armor I wish that we would have had these when we were sitting in armored vehicles in 147 heat.
Soldiers often complain the suit makes them cold Waaaaaahhhhhh! Suck it up and be thankful you are cold during the Month of Fire.
Vehicle’s lack of air conditioning This will be rectified with AC retrofit kits. My battalion has already received theirs and our GDLS tech reps are installing them.
Two MGS Strykers experienced misfires. One MGS crew solved the problem by extracting the round and reseating it into the breech Misfires are not necessarily due to the gun system, more than likely ammunition related or operator error as stated above. Everyone trains misfire procedures. You haven’t lived until you have shaken a 120mm round out of a mortar tube and do the long lonely walk to the dud pit.
MGS’s cramped crew space leaves no room for air conditioning Cramped? It’s an armored vehicle, and AC will be added during retrofit.
Computer systems overheating in some of the MGS Strykers Again, which computer?
Turret partially overhangs the vehicle commander’s and gunner’s hatches, making quick escape no easy task The only quick way out of a Stryker is dropping the back hatch.
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