K-Bars and Cadets

[condor888000]

K-Bar combat knives, CADPAT, helmets, C-7's...Why don't you people just join the army instead of posing around with military equipment?

You want a 12-15 year old in a reserve unit? Cause thats what many cadets are. In my unit at least 50% are 12-15. Too young. Cadets gives them something to do in the meantime. Does it train them? Not really. Hopefully it will help a bit, not a huge bit mind you, but a bit. And hey, every little bit helps.

Cadets should not have knives of any sort.

Now I really disagree.  I take little on a bush ex. However, I will never go on a bush ex without a knife, multi-tool or some other SMALL blade on my person. Reasons? Never can tell what might happen. When you might need a knife. By that, I don't mean everyone should walk around with a Ka-bar. But a small folder? For the senior cadets who hopefully know how to handle it? Heck yes. Especially since it will certainly come in useful. Thankfully a few seniors are starting to come around to my view point so that I am no longer the only person with a knife on ex. Theres now 2 of us.  :

I never did as a cadet and managed to get though all the cadet eex'sthat I did without suffering too much...

Good for you. However I and others apparently feel differrent. I having a knife on a cadet ex a life or death thing? Of course not. However, it is a usefull tool. When required it is usefull. That is why I have one.

The only difference is that the instructors i had didn't let us make asses of ourselves by allowing us to dress up like soldiers!

Complete agreement. OD's are one thing, but thats about all you need in my opinion.

Now that I'm done with that post........

People under the age of 18 years old are not to be in possession of knives, guns or any of that stuff without a direct adult presence. That is Canadian law.

Makes good sense to me. As it should.

Can you tell me that an adult is present 24 and 7 when you're aONyour 'exercises?!' I thought not.

No, but I am always at least in contact with said adult. As are all other seniors. We are also in contact with at least 1 medic from 28 Field Am when on our exs. The miracles of FRS radios......

Children are not responsible under the law if they hurt themselves or someone else with a weapon...The CF would be liable (and your cadet corps) and, after the media got done with you people the cadet program would be history!

Very true point. However, I have a feeling that that would very much depend on the parents of said injured cadet. As well as age. If I cut myself a mere 3 months before my 18th, with a knife, my mum won't flip out, but if 12 year old Bloggins did, bigger issue in the eyes of the parents if not the law. This is a heck of an arguement to restrice who can carry the knives.

Want that too happen...What about al the good cadets...You know the ones who are really there to learn and not pose for the cameras in their newest military getup!

They can do so. Some of the best prefer to do so. Or prefer to wear old military get up.

You people do not think! Get rid of the army stuff and go back to being what you are...Children who are learning to be cadets, not soldiers.

Thank you very much for insulting the entire cadet orgainzation. While you may have strong feeling on this, as you've demonstrated. Please. Treat us with respect. Not as a punching bag. Thank you for your help in the future.

 

[Slim]

Present in what way?   Within one metre?   Ten Metres?   One hundred Metres?
Sure, if this cadet was to go on a killing rampage with their 3-inch Swiss Army Knife blade : That's totally blown out of proportion - a small cut resulting from an accident would never be enormously publicized as you're explaining it.

Cadets are not soldiers. Cadets are children. And correct me if I'm wrong but isn'tthis thread about K-Bar COMBAT knives?!

Are you suggesting that men and women in the military never make mistakes?   There's NEVER been a young recruit that's done something wrong with a grenade, or even an experienced Corporal who's left their safety off?   Stop trying to make ridiculous statements because we're cadets - fact is that mistakes will happen, whether it's with a cadet or with someone in the Canadian Forces.
The good cadets are the ones who come as recommended in the proper attire of Combat clothing for the weekend.

Why do you people children have to wear COMBAT unifroms!? You are not soldiers, Not sworn members of the armed forces and not entitled to them. Get over it and go back to wearing what you're supposed to...Not COMBAT unifroms. there's no reason for it!

And as for serving soldiers making mistakes...Of course they do. However they are part of a system that can deal with hurt of killed people, broken equipment or lost members on exercise.

Here we have cadets, carrying knives, dressed like soldiers and wearing helmets. There's no reason for it!

 

[condor888000]

Cadets are not soldiers. Cadets are children. And correct me if I'm wrong but isn'tthis thread about K-Bar COMBAT knives?!

Yes but it seems to have morphed into more of a general knife thread.

Why do you people children have to wear COMBAT unifroms!? You are not soldiers, Not sworn members of the armed forces and not entitled to them. Get over it and go back to wearing what you're supposed to...Not COMBAT unifroms. there's no reason for it!

Ok, but yet what would you have us wear in the bush? Combats are avaible, cheap, and durable enough for our purposes. They fit the bill, and if Joe Civvie wears them with a anarchy smybol on them, whats wrong with us having a set too? And wasn't this thread about knives? 

Here we have cadets, carrying knives, dressed like soldiers and wearing helmets. There's no reason for it!

Carrying knives to assist them in their jobs, wearing combats so as not to destroy their oun clothes which are more expensive are wearing helmets beacause htey can. Even though the helmets serve no purpose. Sound about right? Cause it does to me.

 

[Slim]

Sorry guys, but I have a tough time getting my head around the whole thing.

When I was a cadet we were never allowed to wear combat uniforms over and above a shirt and pants. We wern't even allowed to blouse the pants into boots.

I realize that kids are always pushing to do more and its coll to dress up like real soldiers...But to my mind you have to be careful about what sort of image and mindset the kids get from that and portray to others. All we need is an accident of some sort and for the media to show and and see a bunch of kids dressed in CADPATwith helmets and big knives and the like...

 

[D-n-A]

We have the same ranks, the same basic outline of training

Same rank structure, sure but you don't have to go through any real leadership courses to get them though

Also, the same basic outline of training? Not even close.

Should I just sit at home and wait for the time to come, or should I join cadets, learn the drill, ranks, and what to expect, and go to the military Reserves prepared?

Cadets won't really prepare you for the military. Yea, your know some drill and the rank structure, but thats about it. Plus you learn most of that in the first week of basic.

 

[condor888000]

When I was a cadet we were never allowed to wear combat uniforms over and above a shirt and pants. We wern't even allowed to blouse the pants into boots.

Sounds like a great way to go about it. Same general rules as at 51, only we can wear the boots are are encouraged to blouse if we so chose. While wearing cadet insgnia of course. Anything else gets in the way in my opinion.

I realize that kids are always pushing to do more and its coll to dress up like real soldiers...But to my mind you have to be careful about what sort of image and mindset the kids get from that and portray to others. All we need is an accident of some sort and for the media to show and and see a bunch of kids dressed in CADPATwith helmets and big knives and the like...

Once again I agree. Which is why it would make sense at least in my mind, for there to be a limit on what sorts of knives that could be brought, ie: a little multi-tool of folding pocket knife is a go, but a big fixed blade hunting knife isn't. Lets say a folding blade of no bigger than 3". Should be big enough for most jobs, and though it is possible to injure someone, hopefully a slip if one did happen wouldn't be very serious.

The whole helmet thing......... :-\ Doesn't seem smart at all to me. Not at all. Neither does the wearing of webbing/tac vests. Even though I own webbing. That I no longer use as I grew up a bit and realized a backpack works just as well. And is more comfortable.

 

[medic65726]

Back to the Knife thread.............
To suggest that cadets should not be able to carry knives at all, I think is ridiculous. Should they be restricted in what they carry? Yes. Should thye be instructed on proper use? Yes.
When I joined Scouts, at 11 years old, I was allowed to carry a folding knife, after I had been instructed in safe use and care of it. Multiple (4) minor infractions or blatant unsafe behaviour, resulted in revocation of that priviledge. After your 1st year, for the remaining 2 years or so, you would be allowed to carry a fixed blade/sheath knife (maximum 6" blade) with those same restrictions.
Perhaps a similar idea would be good within Cadets. I have carried a folding pocket knife, every day of my life, since about the age of 12. Have I ever cut myself, yes, but use any tool enough and you may hurt yourself with it. It is a matter of due care and dilligence. Things that are well within the scope to be taught to cadets. Teach responsible useage, not restrict it.
And as for a Cadet on a murderous rampage........could be done with anything, not just a knife.....Hell I've seen tents torched by accident.........
A knife is not necessarily a weapon...... as per the Criminal Code, a weapon is anything i) used, ii) designed to be used, iii) or intended to be used........... to injur or harm others.
Many things fall into this category.......................
as well as taking knives away from cadets....why don't we create a national registry of all knives......hell anything that could be used as a weapon...........
I am presently brandishing a very dangerous looking toothbrush......maybe I should give it up, or register it..........

 

[Slim]

When I joined Scouts, at 11 years old, I was allowed to carry a folding knife, after I had been instructed in safe use and care of it. Multiple (4) minor infractions or blatant unsafe behaviour, resulted in revocation of that priviledge. After your 1st year, for the remaining 2 years or so, you would be allowed to carry a fixed blade/sheath knife (maximum 6" blade) with those same restrictions.

Great idea. I'm all for teaching rather than restricting. My point was focused on the fact that the above comments were beig made about carrying a knife that was manufactured as a (damn good) working tool but has the image of a fighting knife. This seems to be the whole point in this thread...Almost like they want to carry something for its 'coolness' rather than safety and functionality.

When I was serving in the Armoured Corps I carried one of thse kinives while on ex. It was probably the greatest working tool I ever had and damn near indestructable...In fact if you did break it all you had to do to get a new one free of charge was to send both halffs of the thing back to the company that made it.

I had a good and justifyable reason to carry the thing...these kids aren't doing that type of work and if they are fully supervised as someone claimed above then the powers that be can have the great big knife/machete/ sword/whatever. My parents would have gone off the deep end if they'd seen me with one of those things!

Teach responsible useage, not restrict it.
And as for a Cadet on a murderous rampage........could be done with anything, not just a knife.....heck I've seen tents torched by accident.........

Good idea, great idea in fact...Is anyone doing it for cadets?

A knife is not necessarily a weapon...... as per the Criminal Code, a weapon is anything i) used, ii) designed to be used, iii) or intended to be used........... to injur or harm others.
Many things fall into this category.......................

I'm going to assume that you meant me with the above comments. I wasn't thinking of one of them going postal. Not even the worst helmet wearing mirror sunglass wearing CADPAT wannabe would do something like that...But what if one gets lost, or gets in a confrontation with other local kids who don't like army people and can't/won't tell the difference! You know who's side the public will take...especially after the media gets hold of the story!

Now add a fighting knife to the above situation!

why don't we create a national registry of all knives......heck anything that could be used as a weapon...........
I am presently brandishing a very dangerous looking toothbrush......maybe I should give it up, or register it..........

Please don't waste my time with comments like that.

 

[condor888000]

Closest thing for air cadets is one 35 min class if you do aircrew that covers knife safety, axe safety, saw safety, and believe it or not, shovel safety. We also do that class at 51 to level 3+ on bush weekends. So 14-15 year olds are when they are introduced at my unit. As I said, only 2 cadets in my unit bother to carry any form of knife at all during bush exs. Myself and a cadet that did the SI course. So not a problem here, but I like the idea of limiting what they could carry until certain criteria have been met. I'm not sure a fixed blade knife would be required at my unit, but I could see that varying so the option does make sense.

 

[Burrows]

In my cadet days they didn't trust me with knives, I had to use a spork for everything.

I chopped down a tree with a spoon.

 

[condor888000]

Was it a plastic one?

 

[Burrows]

paper.

 

[condor888000]

I bow to the all holy mod of the cadets!

 

[sgt_mandal]

Closest thing for air cadets is one 35 min class if you do aircrew that covers knife safety, axe safety, saw safety, and believe it or not, shovel safety.

419.01 level 1.... 8)

 

[redleafjumper]

This is getting really silly.  A knife is not exactly high technology and quite frankly the 'mommy democracy', 'safety police' attitude in this country is getting way out of hand.  When I was in cadets, granted a while ago, I did all sorts of wonderful things with sharp toys, rifles and even machineguns.  One of the key successes of the cadet programme was that young people are given responsibility and limited authority and react well with it.  Teach them well, and support them and they will do just fine.  Slim, implying that just because a cadet is carrying a knife on an exercise is an invitation to trouble is far overstating the case.  Is it reasonable to discourage packing fighting knives and commando daggers at cadet training? - well, sure it is; teach them to use something appropriate useful for the purpose.  It is very important that the adults set an example.  But banning knives? That's 'over the top' (pardon the pun). 

It is, however, important to remember that a key part of the aim of the Cadet programme is to "...encourage an interest in the land, air and sea elements of the Canadian Armed Forces."  Using real army equipment and dressing the part is how that interest is developed.  If it wasn't for the cool uniforms, swords, bayonets and rifles that my old corps used to use when I was an army cadet, I would have stayed in the scouts.  In my experience, trust and responsibility work well with young people.  It all builds respect - hey, it worked for me and it has worked for several tens of thousands of cadets for many decades.

 

[Slim]

But, but Mr. Slim...I did join the army.

See?

...And swore an oath, and can now be considered responsible, and now have a legal reason to wear CADPAT.

 

[Slim]

  Survival - one of the biggest parts to know what to do, includes carrying a small knife which would allow you to strip bark, cut small branches, cut clothing or material, and cut through rope.   Not to mention a safety factor, as well as hunting should survival become extreme.

I agree 100%

I'm also under the agreement that we don't need to have Cadets walking around in CADPAT - save it for the men and women in the armed forces who would like to wear it.   It's not necessary to fight over it when some people will wear it, and some people won't.  

They don't have much of a choice. Its the CF land uniform.

However, using the excuse "cadets don't need to be wearing camouflage" isn't valid.   If you think about it, do the men and women in the military even need to be in camouflage while they're attending a classroom seminar, or training around the armoury?   Do you need to be in CADPAT while you're doing small tasks where camouflage isn't essential?   No, but you're wearing it for what purpose?   Probably ones that are similar to that of the cadets who would like to wear the older OD Combats - uniformity, to look professional, and it's general handiness when it comes to carrying around a day's worth of things.

Back before you started cadets there was a uniform called workdress, which is what cadet uniforms are in fact based on. It was meant as a uniform to be worn in areas other than the field, which would allow the CF to save the combat or 'operational ' dress for field ex's.

The CF has done away with workdress for the land element (maybe the Airfoce as well, I don't know) in order to save money. The members are told what to wear and don't have a choice in the matter. Its not a questin of like or dislike. the simple fact is that its their job to wear those clothes and assume the responsability that goes with it...

 

[WO2 Gubbels]

  In my unit I was aloud knife, and if we had any other SI grads they could as well.  Before I was swo, the swo used to carry a knife too.  Other then that any knifes were confiscated.  A knife does come in handy sometimes especially if you are teaching a class where you need it for stuff, but they are not needed by most people.  I do have a survival knife and ka-bar at home but i never bring those on a cadet ex, I always bring a smaller choice. 

      JG

 

[Peace]

Any tool bigger than a pocket knife that would be nessissairy SHOULD be provided to you in the means of a pioneer tools store.

As for the air force work dress, it is not being issued anymore BUT if you were around when it was here i think you can still wear it. other than that airforce wear flightsuits and EME's (land) wear overalls sometimes. So Airforce now have the same workdress as us (land) with the blue ranks and name tapes. Im not possitive on the exact rule of the old workdress but i do still see it on occasion in Borden at the JR mess. never on anything less than a cpl tho.

 

[PViddy]

It will still be an order of dress for us CIC types until (or if) we get authorization to draw CADPAT like our Army counterparts.  So you see some Officer types around, you'll know why.

cheers

PV