Jerry Amernic: The downfall of Canada’s military

[Photopilot]

This was an example of the military being shit heads, plain and simple. The PM was set up by the unit deliberately to put the helmet on backwards and look stupid. The entire CAF paid for it dearly for the rest of Chretien’s time in office. People should have been charged.

I am not a fan of Chretien and his reign of error, however we are part of the Civil Service and it is our job to be non partisan. Putting on the helmet backwards, someone should have corrected him.

 

[stoker dave]

Thank you G2G I was unaware of the back story to that photo.

So just to be clear: (1) politicians should visit military bases to learn more about DND and (2) politicians should not visit military bases because they will be made to look foolish.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Not to sound too negative (perhaps I’m just getting cynical post Covid lockdown nonsense) - but Canadian politicians have to be some of the dumbest on Earth.

It doesn’t matter which candidates are running in our riding, neither of them rarely stand out as someone who will push anything forward. Sure, they may listen to the citizens in their riding, and many of them can help their local citizens out when dealing with the federal government… but when it comes to big thinkers or long term thinkers, Canadian politicians just are not these things.

A good example was from rmc_wannabe - a former mayor, and local MP, hasn’t once stepped foot onto the base. One of the largest local employers, and he can’t be bothered.

Why? Is it sheer arrogance? Is it not knowing how important the military is for employment in their riding? Is it total apathy, while instead being focused on Starbucks & just getting through the day?


Canadian politicians have allowed the military to wither away because for the most part, they are stupid. Some in some ways, others in other ways. They fail to understand that monetary currency isn’t the only currency around. That, and they are too proud to accept a good deal when offered.

And I think they are well aware that most Canadians are about as in touch with international affairs as they are - aka they form opinions based on what the media tells them.


0.02

Canadian political thought processes move in 4 year cycles. And it has more to do with getting reelected than leaving Canada in a better state then when they took office.

 

[Good2Golf]

Thank you G2G I was unaware of the back story to that photo.

So just to be clear: (1) politicians should visit military bases to learn more about DND and (2) politicians should not visit military bases because they will be made to look foolish.

(2) should never have happened. It was the height of unprofessionalism.

 

[lenaitch]

Not to sound too negative (perhaps I’m just getting cynical post Covid lockdown nonsense) - but Canadian politicians have to be some of the dumbest on Earth.

It doesn’t matter which candidates are running in our riding, neither of them rarely stand out as someone who will push anything forward. Sure, they may listen to the citizens in their riding, and many of them can help their local citizens out when dealing with the federal government… but when it comes to big thinkers or long term thinkers, Canadian politicians just are not these things.

A good example was from rmc_wannabe - a former mayor, and local MP, hasn’t once stepped foot onto the base. One of the largest local employers, and he can’t be bothered.

Why? Is it sheer arrogance? Is it not knowing how important the military is for employment in their riding? Is it total apathy, while instead being focused on Starbucks & just getting through the day?


Canadian politicians have allowed the military to wither away because for the most part, they are stupid. Some in some ways, others in other ways. They fail to understand that monetary currency isn’t the only currency around. That, and they are too proud to accept a good deal when offered.

And I think they are well aware that most Canadians are about as in touch with international affairs as they are - aka they form opinions based on what the media tells them.


0.02

Everything is controlled from 'the centre'; even opposition parties, and the centre is largely run by unelected party staff. Support for anything is determined by the number of votes they determine it will gain (or not lose). The only time a local politician would really care about the military presence in their riding is if it was threatened with closure - and even then, maybe.

The public, when they notice at all, see pictures of big grey boats, grey planes - some that look at lot like what Maverick is flying so they must be modern - and funny green vehicles. Almost 74% live in cities; ~35% in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver. What's the odds of them ever seeing or interacting with a CAF member?

 

[Spencer100]

Everything is controlled from 'the centre'; even opposition parties, and the centre is largely run by unelected party staff. Support for anything is determined by the number of votes they determine it will gain (or not lose). The only time a local politician would really care about the military presence in their riding is if it was threatened with closure - and even then, maybe.

The public, when they notice at all, see pictures of big grey boats, grey planes - some that look at lot like what Maverick is flying so they must be modern - and funny green vehicles. Almost 74% live in cities; ~35% in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver. What's the odds of them ever seeing or interacting with a CAF member?

Closing bases in the cities was a bad move. I believe it was done on propose. Move those weird uniform people to the faraway country side.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Everything is controlled from 'the centre'; even opposition parties, and the centre is largely run by unelected party staff. Support for anything is determined by the number of votes they determine it will gain (or not lose). The only time a local politician would really care about the military presence in their riding is if it was threatened with closure - and even then, maybe.

The public, when they notice at all, see pictures of big grey boats, grey planes - some that look at lot like what Maverick is flying so they must be modern - and funny green vehicles. Almost 74% live in cities; ~35% in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver. What's the odds of them ever seeing or interacting with a CAF member?

You're absolutely correct. The issue is sometimes our elected officials should be doing what's best instead of what's popular.

That and the fact that they lack the will or the ability to articulate the basic requirement of sovereign nation that is the ability to defend its self.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

You're absolutely correct. The issue is sometimes our elected officials should be doing what's best instead of what's popular.

That and the fact that they lack the will or the ability to articulate the basic requirement of sovereign nation that is the ability to defend its self.

I don't think anyone in Canadian politics have done what's right in the face of what's popular. Any colour party on this one too. When you turn your political messaging into an image based media product, vice an actual platform with ideas and solutions, don't be surprised when the tough choices give way to "what's going to keep me in 3 piece suits and a Housing Allowance? " decisions.

 

[Weinie]

I don't think anyone in Canadian politics have done what's right in the face of what's popular. Any colour party on this one too. When you turn your political messaging into an image based media product, vice an actual platform with ideas and solutions, don't be surprised when the tough choices give way to "what's going to keep me in 3 piece suits and a Housing Allowance? " decisions.

I was in Toronto when the decision was made to close the base. IMO, politics(a large land area, and an expanding city) were more of a deciding factor than military expediency/efficiency. Then, more strident voices hijacked the decision and converted the lands to a rec park. Sigh.

 

[CBH99]

This was an example of the military being shit heads, plain and simple. The PM was set up by the unit deliberately to put the helmet on backwards and look stupid. The entire CAF paid for it dearly for the rest of Chretien’s time in office. People should have been charged.

In all fairness... even if it was a ruse...

If he had simply looked around at other members, and put his helmet on the same way as they had theirs on, it could have been avoided…

G2G - I think you may be just helped me reinforce my point…


(Not entirely what I meant, I was going more for ‘short sighted’ or ‘dispassionate.’)

(2) should never have happened. It was the height of unprofessionalism.

Okay, I DO agree with you.

Was it a deliberate attempt to make the PM look stupid in a photo that not many people would see?

Or was it meant as a bit of a ribbing, and just ended up going further than expected?




(Keep in mind, this was before social media really took off & everything became ‘instant’)

 

[CBH99]

Closing bases in the cities was a bad move. I believe it was done on propose. Move those weird uniform people to the faraway country side.

Was the closure of bases in the cities done because of the Cold War?

“If they fire nukes at our bases, better make sure they are far away from the major population centres!”


Or were they closed moreso to get us heathens away from the public, for one reason or another?

 

[dimsum]

Was the closure of bases in the cities done because of the Cold War?

“If they fire nukes at our bases, better make sure they are far away from the major population centres!”


Or were they closed moreso to get us heathens away from the public, for one reason or another?

I'm assuming you're just talking about Army bases? RCN bases are still in Halifax/Victoria (and a small fleet school in Quebec City), and RCAF HQ is still in Winnipeg.

 

[RangerRay]

Was the closure of bases in the cities done because of the Cold War?

“If they fire nukes at our bases, better make sure they are far away from the major population centres!”


Or were they closed moreso to get us heathens away from the public, for one reason or another?

They were closed at the end of the Cold War. They were handy targets when the Liberals got religious about cutting the deficit.

 

[Spencer100]

They were closed at the end of the Cold War. They were handy targets when the Liberals got religious about cutting the deficit.

CFB London, Toronto etc. etc. They were very handy targets. One liberals dislike the military you know "guns in city streets" . (I know broad brush) Two many developers, local councils, NIMBs types were eying those properties. I feel it was a mistake. A PR mistake as it places the military "over there" and not something people see in there daily lives. Plus would recruiting and retention not be better if the CAF had more big city locations?

 

[Underway]

CFB London, Toronto etc. etc. They were very handy targets. One liberals dislike the military you know "guns in city streets" . (I know broad brush) Two many developers, local councils, NIMBs types were eying those properties. I feel it was a mistake. A PR mistake as it places the military "over there" and not something people see in there daily lives. Plus would recruiting and retention not be better if the CAF had more big city locations?

Perhaps not. Try getting an appt in Toronto that a Private could afford on their own. Almost impossible. But visibility is important and when something is seen then its in the mind as a career option.

 

[dimsum]

A PR mistake as it places the military "over there" and not something people see in there daily lives. Plus would recruiting and retention not be better if the CAF had more big city locations?

I think it was a mistake too, but I'm not sure that retention (maybe recruiting) would be better.

The Australian Army has its bases in cities for the most part, and their retention is abysmal - even worse than us. Why? Because they realize that in Brisbane or Adelaide or wherever, they can just quit and look for a job in the city. This is not to say that our current basing locations are good, it's just that "moving bases to cities" won't necessarily mean people stay in.

Also, having a base in a city doesn't necessarily mean the public will think of it in their daily lives. I've met people in Winnipeg who didn't realize that 17 Wing was there (on the other side of the Int'l airport, no less). I'm not too familiar with Edmonton but would folks living and working in the south side really see that many soldiers in uniform? Would the CAF members be out and about in uniform before or after work, or be like Ottawa and go to/from work in civies?

 

[OldSolduer]

I'm assuming you're just talking about Army bases? RCN bases are still in Halifax/Victoria (and a small fleet school in Quebec City), and RCAF HQ is still in Winnipeg.

Kapyong Barracks in Winnipeg remained there as long as Lloyd Axeworthy was the sitting Liberal MP and Chretien's right hand man in the West. As soon as Lloyd was gone Kapyong was moved to Shilo.

Politics kept Kapyong in Winnipeg.

 

[Good2Golf]

Was it a deliberate attempt to make the PM look stupid in a photo that not many people would see?

Or was it meant as a bit of a ribbing, and just ended up going further than expected?

2nd hand anecdote from someone from the offending regiment that it was deliberate to make him seem foolish and out of touch.

 

[GR66]

I think it was a mistake too, but I'm not sure that retention (maybe recruiting) would be better.

The Australian Army has its bases in cities for the most part, and their retention is abysmal - even worse than us. Why? Because they realize that in Brisbane or Adelaide or wherever, they can just quit and look for a job in the city. This is not to say that our current basing locations are good, it's just that "moving bases to cities" won't necessarily mean people stay in.

Also, having a base in a city doesn't necessarily mean the public will think of it in their daily lives. I've met people in Winnipeg who didn't realize that 17 Wing was there (on the other side of the Int'l airport, no less). I'm not too familiar with Edmonton but would folks living and working in the south side really see that many soldiers in uniform? Would the CAF members be out and about in uniform before or after work, or be like Ottawa and go to/from work in civies?

Urban bases would have been best kept for use by Reserve units.

Edited to add: Those Reservists are already paying the market price for homes in the area so no additional burden.

 

[dimsum]

Urban bases would have been best kept for use by Reserve units.

Edited to add: Those Reservists are already paying the market price for homes in the area so no additional burden.

Yes, but for example, Toronto already has a bunch of armouries (and HMCS York) which the Reserve units already use. Would it have been better to keep CFB Downsview, move those units there, and get rid of Moss Park, Fort York, etc?